Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Talizvar wrote:
The definitions do not require the commodity to be "essential".

The definition does require it. It's implied in the "exploitative" part, you can't be exploiting someone merely by having high prices unless that person is compelled to buy your product no matter what you charge. If, like GW, you're selling a luxury product then people are free to stop buying if you set your prices too high. And if they keep buying it's because they feel that your product is worth the price you're charging, not because refusing to buy would be unacceptable harm.

If a big event is being held in a city and hotel rooms double in cost: that is price gouging (even more so if it is the ONLY hotel).

This is kind of a gray area, but it still has some element of "essential". It might not be literal life-or-death essential, but if your plans for the big event are going to be ruined if you can't find a hotel then you're pretty strongly compelled to pay for a hotel room (almost) no matter what the cost is. You can argue about whether or not this gray area is actually unethical behavior or just really frustrating to deal with, but it's clear that this is a situation that has nothing to do with GW's business practices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Something else costing more money has absolutely no relevance, because this is not necessarily something I'm interested in spending money on, whereas other war games being cheaper/more expensive does, as, this being a wargame forum, it's a reasonable assumption other games may be something that would appeal to a typical poster.

Sure, one particular item might not be a relevant comparison for you, but that doesn't negate the general point. If you don't find a comparison with $150/hour airplane rentals relevant (I find it very relevant, as the primary competition for 40k-level spending) there's probably something out there that is relevant for you. For example, perhaps you go out drinking with friends and can consider your bar bill per hour of entertainment vs. 40k costs per hour of entertainment. Or maybe you enjoy traveling and can consider the cost of a weekend trip vs. the cost of a new 40k army. When you consider the whole range of things potential 40k customers could also spend their hobby budget on you find that a lot of them make 40k look pretty cheap, and even more of them are at least on the same level as 40k.

It's all still irrelevant.

It isn't about what 40K players may spend their money on instead, its what wargamers might spend their wargaming money on instead of 40K.

Or do you want to start relativising GW to eating, sleeping, collecting old masters or going into space?

I would maintain that an "essential" part of my life is leisure time of some sort.
My preferred means is tabletop miniature wargaming.
It is not just to play Warhammer 40k.
So I can and do buy for other game systems.
People take their hobbies seriously, hence the various emotional outbursts in this thread.
But yes, "essential" is all relative, eating and drinking and a roof over my head during the Canadian winters are a less optional necessity.

We will all rail at exclusive vs inclusive pursuits.
Sometimes people can be jerks and just want to keep the "riff-raff" out, whomever they may be.

pm713 wrote:
Lovely...

You think thats lovely?

What about these people are telling you, "The onus is on you for not having a 2nd or 3rd job to buy wh40k. You chose that army. Its your choice and your fault. You have a big CHIP on your shoulders for thinking its not your responsibility to shoulder the blame."

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Exactly so! Mantic is a lot cheaper than GW, and it shows. For example:

I'll see your derp dragon and raise you a GW dragon, read em and weep!

Yeah it's a "you gets wat youse pays fer" thing.

I don't mind people going for a "made in china" miniature wargame to save some pennies, I'd probably have mixed 'n' matched some of the better mantic models in with GW models if WHFB hadn't been taken out and shot, they'll do well enough as back line unit fillers that no one really looks at anyway. It is begining to grate though all the pissing on GW all the time. If it's too rich, play something else and quit complaining, and let those of us who enjoy GW's offering well enough to soldier on under heavy price rises actually enjoy it. Is that too much to ask?

Or you could not read a thread about price when you know full well it's not going to be praising GW.

 SolarCross wrote:
It is begining to grate though all the pissing on GW all the time.

No one forced you to open this, read it, and post it in several times.

Models aside, even the cost of the rules is bordering on the obscene. Many games are free for their rules online, or offer much cheaper books for those inclined. In similar veins to GW's larger hardback books, you can get RPG books with several times the content for the price of a single codex these days. It doesn't add up.

Feel free to keep spending your own money on whatever you want, but people have a right to complain/rant/bitch about things that bother them with this game, and prices are a common and real problem for this game.

I took to torrenting the rules (you shouldnt, go and buy them) and proxying/scratch building a few years back when the prices for even a single box of Guardsmen got obscenely high.

These days the entry cost is beyond laughable as a single playable army can easily cost around £250+ for even the smallest and most basic one, and most price in at £400. And that is before paints. And then you have the rules and codexes. The rule book alone costs almost as much as a full 2000 point Bolt Action army and the codexes can easily cripple ones wallet.
Unit prices are obscenely high, especially for those armies that need lots of infantry such as Orks and the Imperial guard and many people do not have enough money to waste a couple of hundred pounds on just basic Infantry figures. And then you have the tanks. These kits, which are not even particularly well made, can cost upwards of £40. To give you some idea of that, one can purchase a 1/35 scale Churchill III with working spring suspension, a turned aluminium gun barrel, etched brass components and a very large amount of extras to allow for different theatre modifications.
Hell, the quality of most of the products is comparatively low when you consider just how much you are paying for it. Even the core rule book is terrible, with poorly written rules and pretty pictures of models where there was once beautiful art work.

GW's pricing is beyond stupid and beyond crazy. It is ludicrous.

 Blacksails wrote:

No one forced you to open this, read it, and post it in several times.

Models aside, even the cost of the rules is bordering on the obscene. Many games are free for their rules online, or offer much cheaper books for those inclined. In similar veins to GW's larger hardback books, you can get RPG books with several times the content for the price of a single codex these days. It doesn't add up.

Feel free to keep spending your own money on whatever you want, but people have a right to complain/rant/bitch about things that bother them with this game, and prices are a common and real problem for this game.

Okay fair point. Isn't there some point though when you just get tired of complaining and feel it's time to just move on to another game?

Otherwise live in hope that these new fangled Start Collecting boxes are a hit for GW encouraging them to lower the price per model for future releases. It could happen, but look out alternative wargame companies if they do though. If an alt companies main selling point is being cheaper than GW then they will die fast if GW choose to become just as cheap whilst still being much more desirable.

The problem with moving on Solar Cross, is that people have already invested a lot within this game and it is also still extremely popular when compared to others. If I visit my club I can be sure to see many games of 40K taking place and maybe one or two other games in a corner somewhere.

 SolarCross wrote:

Okay fair point. Isn't there some point though when you just get tired of complaining and feel it's time to just move on to another game?

Flip it around. Isn't there some point where you get tired of defending a company you just stop caring? This is a forum, people will rehash the same arguments over and over again because we always get new people who haven't seen those arguments get rehashed over and over. There's also the fun in going over old topics when something has recently changed to see if anyone has changed their views. Think of it less like complaining and more of a discussion.

And I'm sure the overwhelming majority of people who have complained about GW prices here or in the past have moved on to other games. Understand that 40k is still among the most popular wargame, so for many people they continue to play it in spite of its price and poor rules because all their friends still play it. If it makes you feel any better, I'm currently getting half a dozen people into BFG and X-wing, so I like I've moved on. The group still plays 40k, so I'm working on a (3rd party) IG army at the moment too.

If an alt companies main selling point is being cheaper than GW then they will die fast if GW choose to become just as cheap whilst still being much more desirable.

Yes and no. 40k has a lot of momentum behind it, but the rules are frankly garbage. One of the big selling points of other games is how great the rules are. I've taught X-wing to total newcomers to the wargaming hobby in 15mins. As in, the entire ruleset of X-wing in two starter matches. And yet, that game still offers much deeper tactical game play and better balance than 40k for a fraction of the cost.

Prices are a significant problem for 40k, but certainly not the only one. As Azreal likes to point out, its about value. If the rules were the best on the market, I'd be more willing to spend that $60CAD for a codex.

I think the aggravation about pricing, is a product of the over all mismanagement of the game. I would think that most wargammers from one time or another dabbled in 40k. And if 40k is the #1 wargamming company, than their customers make up the largest wargaming player base. Those customers are pissed off at how they've been treated and how the investment they've made into 1 company, WHOSE PRODUCT BY THE WAY, HAS TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE. SO IF YOU WANTED TO GET OUT FOR A CHEAPER HOBBY YOU'D be no better off burning your GW minis than trying to sell them for 1/5 the retail price+the expense of putting them together and painting them. Players wouldn't be as pissed off about the pricing if it was comparable to other companies. if they wern't required to buy new products to stay competitive every 6 months. if they didn't have to buy 3-5 books for their army. if they had fair and competitive rules for each army.

I think the GW apologists have it twisted when they say its a hobby, hobbies are expensive, if you don't like it gtfo. Warhammer is game - with a creative element.

Using the golf analogy presented earlier in the thread -
+First of all GW is not Golf. GW is the PGA. Miniature wargaming is golf.
+Golf can be expensive. Some people can afford new clubs, shoes, clothing right away and pay for a membership at a course(GW player). Others really want to play but can't afford it so they buy used equipment and play when they can at lower end courses.
+What the PGA doesn't do is have different rules at different courses, ie. At the masters players can have 2 bags worth of clubs and at the Open, players can only golf on one foot.(GW v Forgeworld)
+Players who buy callaway clubs vs players that buy nike clubs arn't all of a sudden better than every other player on the course (eldar vs every other army)
+The rules of the PGA don't change every year or 2 so that all players should to go out and buy helmets and shin guards because the PGA rule makers have added beating opponents with a club as a new rule. Sure you don't have to go get that new gear....but you won't stand a chance with out it.(CAD vs Decurion with unit taxes, power creep)
+The PGA doesn't hold a license on golf clubs and balls and all other equipment so that players who want to play golf with PGA rules have to buy PGA products that drastically change in price and have not kept up with the average golfers income.

The GW problem is unique. Likening it to a sport as a hobby is fallacy because of said golf analogy. Likening it to other hobbies is a fallacy because other hobbies don't FORCE YOU TO CHOOSE one manufacturer, that then dictates all facets of the hobby for you. ALSO many other hobbies actually give you something tangible as a by-product of the hobby time other than enjoyment. Like Quilting, Woodworking, Dog breeding, cooking, baking, etc...

MAYBE that's it. GW doesn't even give people the enjoyment they should at least be getting. When you go to use the models you painstakingly spent time on building and painting, they don't give you competent rule sets and keep forcing you to buy more to even have a chance at having fun. Winning is FUN. Anyone who disagrees is a fething liar.

I love the gaming and model building aspect. Painting is iffy. I've tried to get other friends into the game. Only myself and 1 buddy play. Everyone else is shocked by the cost and time commitments. And they hear the complaints about the game system and GW.
It's a hard hobby to sell to new people.

WAIT. I Have it. GW is a gd real life video game, an MMO like World of Warcraft.

You pay to play.
You have detailed character creation abilities
People who pay more than you have an advantage.
Once you think you're done and achieved all you can achieve, they release new content on you that you compulsively need to pay for again. because you've already spent to much time and money, and you're addicted. plastic crack is right...
You can always pay a little extra to get better gear to one up people
Nothing really ever changes. You're doing the same things over and over again.
You'll always complain about cheesy tactics and abilities
You've invested so much time and money into it that switching to another MMO is really an incredible undertaking. You'd have to level up a new character, collect all gear. You can't take your existing character(s) with you...they're not really compatible...
It's actually hard to get friends interested in an MMO you like. They may not be gripped by the same things that grip you. When you tell them the cost they're gonna bolt.

Grief wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Lovely...

You think thats lovely?

What about these people are telling you, "The onus is on you for not having a 2nd or 3rd job to buy wh40k. You chose that army. Its your choice and your fault. You have a big CHIP on your shoulders for thinking its not your responsibility to shoulder the blame."

Sound a lot better than you.

 Daemonhost Cherubael wrote:
Warning, very big rant ahead:

Games Workshop has always been scum about this. Majority of the reasons why none of my friends can get into this damn hobby is because
of the bs they pull off with their prices. Half the time me and my friends have to buy used models off ebay just so we could have enough to get a game going. My local games store owner tried to justify Game's workshop's business model, saying how there are certain models that have to be expensive in order to balance the game and not have everyone with really over powered units. He also went to explain how there had also been a tin shortage a couple years back which caused the models to skyrocket in price. While that's true, it doesn't justify the fact that all it is is just a plastic mold that costs ¢19 to manufacture and then have to slap a $45 price tag at the end of it.

Hell, even Magic the Gathering is cheaper than this. And on top of all that, my friends now have to buy the citadel paint sets and brushes for yet again another $30 - $40. What the hell GW?

The reality is that a small plastic squad of 10 Space Marines should only have to cost $10 - $20, and then Tanks such as Rhino cost $25 - $35. If GW REALLY wanted to get more people on board with this hobby, why not make it, I don't know, more available and affordable?

How is this any different from buying a plastic toy G.I. Joe tank at ToysRUs for $30? Or any sized action figure for $15 compared to a $90 Wraithlord? Companies like Matel and Hasbro sell toys around those price ranges and they seem to be holding pretty well.

At the end of the day, it's all just an overpriced miniatures hobby with breakable plastic held together by crazy glue. (Great fluff though, it's up there with J.R.R Tolkien)

If my argument is flawed on how GW is practically keeping newcomers out with their expensive hobby, please point me out on details I got and enlighten me.

Edit: What I said about MTG being 'cheaper', I meant the starting fee into the hobby. A $20 starter deck vs. $85 - $240 starting army (varying on what race you choose).

GW is an expensive hobby but at the same time you dont have a clue what you are talking about...

If you want to play MTG and play to win, you will easily spend $1000's.

You are not just paying for a plastic mold. Do you think GW's employees work for free?

Ill try and be as short with this as possible.
- GW needs to pay their employees, benefits, 401k, insurance, etc.
- All their facilities also need to be maintained and of course rent comes in to play.
- All of their manufacturing lines cost a TON of money, I know I worked in the packaging and processing industry. They are not printing these models on some simple cheap 3D printer. They do runs on certain models and then their lines and models will need to be changed out. This depends on box size and of course the sprue. This could take hours which again costs $.
- With a company like GW I am sure they have engineers on staff to take care of their manufacturing line, which again costs $.
- They need to dump money into design and game research. New model designs don't appear in a magic box.

I'm sure there's more I'm missing. So if you think you are just paying for a plastic model and GW is laughing all the way to the bank you are very mistaken. If they were to charge what you consider to be a good price, they would go out of business very quickly.

This is a game, there needs to be price differences between models, just like MTG cards, and other games as well.

No one is forcing you to buy from GW or from your LGS. There are plenty of places that charge much less for new models.

In close, do more research before starting a rant about not being able to afford something. With your logic a Lamborghini should be the same price as a Toyota.. cause they are both just made of of metal......










Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naaris wrote:
WHOSE PRODUCT BY THE WAY, HAS TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE. SO IF YOU WANTED TO GET OUT FOR A CHEAPER HOBBY YOU'D be no better off burning your GW minis than trying to sell them for 1/5 the retail price+the expense of putting them together and painting them.

If this is happening to you, you are doing something wrong... I've been selling painted minis for years and never once lost money. Even paying ebay fees I still make a good amount, which is what keeps me doing it and also helps me pay for my own personal models. Sometimes it may take a while to sell a model, but it will eventually sell.

Cost of entry is certainly formidable for most, and insurmountable for many.

We have a new player in our group (yay!), and we're trying to help him mash together a chaos army with the extra spare bits and bobs that people have accumulated. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a new player in our group due to cost of entry.

Having players use existing armies is another way to avoid the entry expense, but it takes the hobby out of the hobby, and for some reason I can emotionally but not logically understand, many people don't like playing with other people's armies.

Naaris wrote:
WHOSE PRODUCT BY THE WAY, HAS TERRIBLE RESALE VALUE. SO IF YOU WANTED TO GET OUT FOR A CHEAPER HOBBY YOU'D be no better off burning your GW minis than trying to sell them for 1/5 the retail price+the expense of putting them together and painting them.

If this is happening to you, you are doing something wrong... I've been selling painted minis for years and never once lost money. Even paying ebay fees I still make a good amount, which is what keeps me doing it and also helps me pay for my own personal models. Sometimes it may take a while to sell a model, but it will eventually sell.

I've never sold anythng myself. Just going by the prices I've seen people setting on eBay, and Kijiji (ebay classifieds in canada), craigslist etc...

I feel like it's probably time for folks here to move onto a different hobby/game or re-evaluate your life choices if you really do feel a "starter army + codex + paint" is actually an insurmountable amount of money.

Start Collecting Box - $85 USD
Codex - $40-$60
Paint/Accessories to get started - $50

If you buy the following at any LGS you are highly likely to get some kind of discount, probably at-least 15%. So roughly $180-$200 to get you started into this Hobby. This is your starting point, this is not "buy everything needed to play all of my formations at 1500 & 1850 pt value games". With that being said if $200 USD is actually an insurmountable amount of money like some of you are acting like it is...move onto something more appropriate for your budget instead of flaming the Hobby.

Can you quote anyone who's said the prices represent an insurmountable amount of money?

Oh, and don't forget that you'll need to buy a rulebook, which'll be another $100.

They can't make money on volume. 40K is a niche hobby in a niche business (gaming).

 Blacksails wrote:
Can you quote anyone who's said the prices represent an insurmountable amount of money?

Oh, and don't forget that you'll need to buy a rulebook, which'll be another $100.

That would probably be me. 'Insurmountable' was a bit overdramatic, but we all know that many people can't spare $280-$300 bucks to start a hobby.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

but we all know that many people can't spare $280-$300 bucks to start a hobby.

Then don't.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Can you quote anyone who's said the prices represent an insurmountable amount of money?

Oh, and don't forget that you'll need to buy a rulebook, which'll be another $100.

That would probably be me. 'Insurmountable' was a bit overdramatic, but we all know that many people can't spare $280-$300 bucks to start a hobby.

Then those people should stop trying to live outside of their budget, and after they do that and learn how simple economics work they should also stop logging online to try and justify their own personal reasons why they can't get into said Hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

but we all know that many people can't spare $280-$300 bucks to start a hobby.

Then don't.

Nailed it. Take a picture folks, we got someone here who is using common sense and reasoning and applying it to a real world scenario. Shocker right?

Great, one person used the word insurmountable and then admitted it was over dramatic.

The more sensible people in this thread have explained that the prices for 40k are not in line with several other related products. The rules are probably one of the easiest ones to use as an example.

Yes, people can save, or not play at all, or play other games entirely. All of these things represent a barrier to entry that doesn't have to be there to the degree it is, hence the widespread and common complaints about this game in particular in the wargaming hobby.

If the rules alone for 40k were priced more reasonably (or free like several other games/included with the models), the entry cost goes down significantly ($160 worth, being one and a half times a start collecting box) and makes the game much more appealing to all.

*Edit* I also don't understand the poor attitude some people have here. If someone says they think its too expensive and its stopping them (or friends) from playing, telling them get lost and say its not for them is a gakky attitude to have. At the very least, offer some alternatives or have some kind of sympathy or empathy.

 WulfenClaw wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Can you quote anyone who's said the prices represent an insurmountable amount of money?

Oh, and don't forget that you'll need to buy a rulebook, which'll be another $100.

That would probably be me. 'Insurmountable' was a bit overdramatic, but we all know that many people can't spare $280-$300 bucks to start a hobby.

Then those people should stop trying to live outside of their budget, and after they do that and learn how simple economics work they should also stop logging online to try and justify their own personal reasons why they can't get into said Hobby.

I guess when the Grand Poobah speaks, who are the little people to argue?

 Blacksails wrote:
*Edit* I also don't understand the poor attitude some people have here. If someone says they think its too expensive and its stopping them (or friends) from playing, telling them get lost and say its not for them is a gakky attitude to have. At the very least, offer some alternatives or have some kind of sympathy or empathy.

So instead of being real and down right honest about the situation of someone complaining that they can't afford this Hobby (40k) and lack of money is the #1 reason all their friends can't get into the hobby you would rather me lie? Yes you could probably find some second hand models from somewhere or build some things from scratch but if you want the real deal, well you are going to pay for the real deal then aren't you?

I can't walk into a Honda dealership and tell them to take one of their Sedans and make it look like and perform like an Audi S4 and sell it to me for the price of the Honda can I? Nope, not how the real world works.

You get what you pay for at the end of the day in all things in life, and even though we are talking about a Game/Hobby it definitely applies here.

The truth generally tends to make people feel uncomfortable one way or another and I'm not about to sit on here and tell people that a rainbow unicorn island of models equivalent to what GW sells exist and you can get it all for half the price!!! Not happening.

Oh goody, the level of discourse has been dragged down to "nobody's forcing you to buy it."

Bravo!

 Snoopdeville3 wrote:

Ill try and be as short with this as possible.
- GW needs to pay their employees, benefits, 401k, insurance, etc.
- All their facilities also need to be maintained and of course rent comes in to play.
- All of their manufacturing lines cost a TON of money, I know I worked in the packaging and processing industry. They are not printing these models on some simple cheap 3D printer. They do runs on certain models and then their lines and models will need to be changed out. This depends on box size and of course the sprue. This could take hours which again costs $.
- With a company like GW I am sure they have engineers on staff to take care of their manufacturing line, which again costs $.
- They need to dump money into design and game research. New model designs don't appear in a magic box.

The same can be said about every other model manufacturing company out there. Virtually all of them offer cheaper products than GW. If GW has a problem because their costs have got too high, then it's their problem, not mine.

BTW, about the incredibly derpy Mantic "dragons", those models have been out of production for a while. And you know who's even derpier and more expensive?

There's telling people the truth, and then there's being an ass.

As I've pointed out, we can have a reasonable discussion about this topic without devolving into people on their high horse shouting down to the peasants about how the real world works and to just not buy it if you think its too expensive.

Game would also be cheaper if players would simply decide "screw GW-officialdom". As long as players insist on following what GW says they are at the mercy of GW's pricing strategies.

tneva82 wrote:
Game would also be cheaper if players would simply decide "screw GW-officialdom". As long as players insist on following what GW says they are at the mercy of GW's pricing strategies.

Oddly enough, I pay more for my 3rd party models than if I went with GW plastics.