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 General Annoyance wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
No, they're more expensive because they have the best quality miniatures on the market. I don't consider that debatable for anyone who has eyes honestly.

It's entirely debatable. GW does have legitimate competition for the "best miniatures" title, and arguably that competition produces stuff that GW would envy. GW is in a good position quality-wise, but let's not get so far into GW apologism that anyone who favors another brand "doesn't have eyes".

Ok perhaps that was a little uncalled for, but genuinely I can't think of a company that can match their standards on the scale that they do. Only one that springs to mind is Victoria Miniatures, but Miss Lamb is just one person running a fairly small (but well known) business.

Trust me, I hate GW more than I love it - I just feel like it can't be denied that their level of quality is, for the most part, unmatched by any other company on the same scale. This is not to say that "GW is the best ergo all other miniatures are poor quality" - I for one think Infinity miniatures are of great design and quality (particularly when you consider they're metal sculpts too, no fancy resin)

Speaking of Resin, shouldn't we be saying that Forge World has some of the best model sculpts?

G.A

It's just a matter of taste, and many times, perspective.

I don't believe GW are unmatched when it comes to quality for 28/30/33mm models. Not at all.

I could spend a lot of time digging for examples, which I don't have, so I'll speak only from memory. In terms of space fantasy/sci-fi there are several companies out there than are more than a match to GW's quality. HiTech miniatures have some gorgeous models in catalogue, although it's certainly not a cheap company. Dreamforge has fantastic infantry kits too, and a vehicle kit that (although expensive) pretty much gakks all over all GW's imperium vehicles.

In regards to medieval fantasy, the market is simply crowded with alternatives that in many cases match GW's quality for a vastly inferior price. Check The Russian Alternative's metal models (they dropped prices a while ago, now it's like 10 infantry models for 23€ or so). Check MOM (resin). Check Avatars of War (specially the metal characters). Or just grab a box of the Perrys' and get 40 high quality plastic infantrymen for like 25€.

GW do have very good models in their vast catalogue, but at this stage they're very very far from being at the undisputed top.

 SolarCross wrote:
We need to face facts. 28mm is a scale nice for hobby model kits where you can happily spend hours painting each individual freckle on Captain Herodude's face but it is a terrible, terrible scale for gaming. It is okay only for squad vs squad level games like Necromunda or Space Hulk but utterly absurd for anything larger. ABSURD! GW knows this and they keep telling you, it's a hobby, it's a hobby, the game is not important. The game exists only so you can put your big pretty miniatures on display for someone else to admire. 40k is about collecting, crafting, storytelling, displaying and spending quality social time with fellow hobbyists.

This! So much this.

https://www.baccus6mm.com/includes/news/28mmmyth.inc.php

Just look at the pictures. Which sells better big battles? Which is easier to store and set up? Which doesn't require frigging football field to play big battles with appropriate space for manouvering and not just slam together and roll 'em up?

28mm is lousy scale for anything but small skirmishes(which are fun but 40k is NOT small skirmish)

28mm scale itself is historical relic that was chosen not because it was ideal for wargaming...But because it started with fitting scale more to the train modeler scale and then got scaled up steadily in scale creep. Which worked while miniatures were mostly used for RPG counters but then when they started to be used for wargames limitations of scale started to show...But by then mentality had struct. Then came in GW and with their good marketing strategy they got in pretty dominant share. Now it's running on it's own inertia.

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Qlanth wrote:
I find that argument to be pretty shallow. The true test of any game is whether or not people play it. Whether it's a board game, a video game, or a miniwar game, whatever. If it's good, people will play it. If it's not, they won't. And 40k has nothing to prove. The last 30 years of 40k gaming demonstrate that people like the format and want that scale of play.

Nothing to prove? Yet it's shrinking in player base when lots of other games are increasing...

And so the same argument resurfaces again...

 adamsouza wrote:
Repeating "7th edition is a lame duck" is 40K equivalent of "Obama is a muslim". There is no proof of either, and simply saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

6th Edition was a lame duck. We know that since it was the shortest, speed bump, of an edition in 40K history.

Rumors of 8th edition being just around the corner have existed since before 7th edition was even released. It's a snarky joke that people who were butthurt about 6ths short life span started, and that critics of GW and 7th edition won't let drop.

As for EPIC scaled 40K, it requires that you love the game enough that you don't care what the miniatures really look like.
EPIC sized figures are too tiny to sculpt detail. Too tiny to paint detail. EPIC scale is 1 step away from playing with figure flats and cardboard chits. Some people eat that up, most don't.

EPIC has been through 2 incarnations, neither of them sold well enough for GW to want to keep making them long term.

8th ed is hinted by very reliable members.

And besides sale numbers don't lie. 40k sales are dropping in #'s. Only thing keeping profits up there is price hikes. That's not very sustainable scenario long term though.

And whether epic sells or not isn't really factor in whether GW keeps or not. Last one exceeded their expectations by _400%_ yet they canned it.

But hey keep repeating "all is fine all is fine all is fine" mantra while 40k sales keep dropping


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hobojebus wrote:
If fow can do plastic tanks at £5 GW could certainly do a smaller kit for cheaper.

The idea it'd be £15 is bewildering.

GW don't set high prices because it costs them alot, they set them because their sales are abysmal and they have to keep profits up any means necessary.

Especially with economics of scale.

Heck as it is GW could already in 28mm outprice their competition if they wanted(and had rules that would make people want to actually play and buy their models!). But that would countermand their "we sell collector kits for collectors" mentality.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Repeating "7th edition is a lame duck" is 40K equivalent of "Obama is a muslim". There is no proof of either, and simply saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

How is there no proof? Sad Panda is the most accurate rumor monger we have, and those words came straight out of his mouth on this very forum.

Unless you can quote me something more recent, the last thing I know Sad Panda said was that there will be no 8th edition in 2016.

That's not the same thing as 8th is coming "soon".

As for recent 40K releases we've gotten Battle for Vedros, Deathwatch Overkill, Betrayal At Calth individual Box sets, Munitorum Armored Containers, Death from the Skies, and Angels of Death, off the top of my head. That's hardly nothing.

As for 40k army updates, people spent all of last year complaining about how FAST codexes were updated. Now you're using a pause, that they are using to push AoS on us, to complain that they aren't doing enough 40K army updates ?

There are the 7th Ed 40K Army FAQs being released weekly.

You can throw bones and read the results any way you want, but you're relying on faith not facts.

tneva82 wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:
We need to face facts. 28mm is a scale nice for hobby model kits where you can happily spend hours painting each individual freckle on Captain Herodude's face but it is a terrible, terrible scale for gaming. It is okay only for squad vs squad level games like Necromunda or Space Hulk but utterly absurd for anything larger. ABSURD! GW knows this and they keep telling you, it's a hobby, it's a hobby, the game is not important. The game exists only so you can put your big pretty miniatures on display for someone else to admire. 40k is about collecting, crafting, storytelling, displaying and spending quality social time with fellow hobbyists.

This! So much this.

https://www.baccus6mm.com/includes/news/28mmmyth.inc.php

Just look at the pictures. Which sells better big battles? Which is easier to store and set up? Which doesn't require frigging football field to play big battles with appropriate space for manouvering and not just slam together and roll 'em up?

28mm is lousy scale for anything but small skirmishes(which are fun but 40k is NOT small skirmish)

28mm scale itself is historical relic that was chosen not because it was ideal for wargaming...But because it started with fitting scale more to the train modeler scale and then got scaled up steadily in scale creep. Which worked while miniatures were mostly used for RPG counters but then when they started to be used for wargames limitations of scale started to show...But by then mentality had struct. Then came in GW and with their good marketing strategy they got in pretty dominant share. Now it's running on it's own inertia.

Thanks for sharing that link, I enjoyed reading that. I guess 40k did start as a small skirmish game, way back when it was Rogue Trader, but it has creeped up in scope over the decades trying to become a full wargame until we are now in 7th where formations are floated that require hundreds of infantry and half a dozen tanks to form. The sad thing is despite the gargantuan cost in time and money it takes to field even a minimal Cadian Battle Group and the logistical absurdity of moving it, storing and even just trying to fit it on a table on deployment, a couple of hundred blokes and a few tanks is still not really much of an "army". Epic was really where 40k should have stayed to do big battles whilst remaining sane and sustainably saleable. 28mm should just have been for small skirmish, painting comps and dioramas.

 adamsouza wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Repeating "7th edition is a lame duck" is 40K equivalent of "Obama is a muslim". There is no proof of either, and simply saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

How is there no proof? Sad Panda is the most accurate rumor monger we have, and those words came straight out of his mouth on this very forum.

Unless you can quote me something more recent, the last thing I know Sad Panda said was that there will be no 8th edition in 2016.

That's not the same thing as 8th is coming "soon".

As for recent 40K releases we've gotten Battle for Vedros, Deathwatch Overkill, Betrayal At Calth individual Box sets, Munitorum Armored Containers, Death from the Skies, and Angels of Death, off the top of my head. That's hardly nothing.

As for 40k army updates, people spent all of last year complaining about how FAST codexes were updated. Now you're using a pause, that they are using to push AoS on us, to complain that they aren't doing enough 40K army updates ?

There are the 7th Ed 40K Army FAQs being released weekly.

You can throw bones and read the results any way you want, but you're relying on faith not facts.

Truly exceptional goal post moving. I said absolutely nothing about how soon 8th edition was going to be, you'll notice that I specifically singled out your refusal to accept that Games Workshop views 7th edition as a lame duck edition. As for a recent source of Sad Panda saying this, here you go.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/691067.page#8660768

Straight from the horse's mouth. As to the rest of your rebuttal, I never once said they're doing 40K updates too fast. I merely said that Sad Panda has told us we aren't going to be seeing any codex updates any time soon, and not a single thing you posted in your list of 40K releases is a codex update. Calth, Death from the Skies, Vedros - these are not major updates to anything, they're patchwork releases to throw fans a bone and keep them interested.

EDIT: edited to include the original link. Thanks, Azreal.

Here's the direct link to the original post too, rather than a requote...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/691067.page#8660768

 General Annoyance wrote:
I can't think of a company that can match their standards on the scale that they do.

Are you talking about only in plastics? Or maybe discounting any other company that isn't as big as them?

Because if you aren't discounting metal or resin I'd say Infinity blow GW out of the water:
From their recently announced two player box that's coming soon.
Compared to the most recent GW release of infantry sized models I know of:
Now don't get me wrong people have been saying they love those new tree guys, but personally I look at them individually and just see really flat, really static, plastic. I don't see much in the way of fine details and interesting textures, even the swirly magic glowy things look way too big and cartoony.


Now if you wanted to argue that doesn't count because it's not plastic and not a like for like comparison, I'd point to dreamforge games.
Might be a little controversial to say but I like them every bit as much as:


Something I can't imagine would be controversial to say is that I think the dreamforge leviathans, with their ridiculous amount of poseability and customization crap all over the Imperial Knight and it's entirely static legs.


Now if your problem was more with the fact that those companies are small little guys who don't have to produce things on the same scale as GW I'd probably argue Corvus Belli are a lot closer than you think, but let's forget that for now

How about Tamiya model kits? They have been around since 1946, and the detail on some of their stuff id astounding. Their tank kits include things like brass etc and metal barrels so you don't have to deal with horrible mould lines.
Honestly compared to that I think GW's tanks look like goofy toys with massivly oversized rivets and gaps were the armour plates meet. Hell, the tracks on a Tamiya kit will usually be rubber and in the higher end ones actual metal links.




And then there is Gundam kits.
Gundam kits are just cheating.
My roommate started building one the other day and off the sprue with him having done nothing other than clip it free, it had working pistons and joints. They have managed to build the mould in such a way that this kind of stuff is possible:

I don't know much about Gundam, but I believe that is a Bandai kit, which is every bit as popular in Japan as GW is in the UK, if not more, and god damn I'd love to see that kinda of modeling technology come over to the model wargaming side of things.




I don't honestly see anything GW does that others don't do better at this point, but GW is charging as if they are the undisputed best in the industry and they don't need to worry about pricing their products too high because the quality will speak for itself.
Being an Australian I can confidently say it doesn't cut it here anymore, and they have priced themselves far too high to make it easy to bring in new players.

I'm just jumping in to comment as someone who has no concern what so ever but wants to voice which looks "best" of all those linked.

The metal minis at the top blow away the newest GW release for AoS. In my opinion.

Then the next set of comparisons I think GW takes it by a mile in this regard. The plastic infantryman suffers from that old school bloated plastic look just a little more than the marine does. The best comparison I can make is look at old school XV8 and new school XV8 and you'll see the design is much more crisp looking. It is pretty close in terms of quality though and has an edge over a lot of older GW models for sure.

As for the tanks real life tanks are usually a bad comparison to sci fi because sci fi is designed to look visually appealing where as real tanks were designed to be real effective war machines while not costing a lot. So they have this minimalist military look.

I would give the edge to the landraider for being the more technically proficient model, but as I said its not a fair comparison to the team who made the tiger tank since that is how it actually looks in real life. If they made a line of more sci-fi tanks where they could let their creativity flow and make the model super detailed I would be willing to take a look at round two.

As to the gundam kits I don't know. Too indepth for me.

@ Jonospiel, wow great post there.

So what we need is Fantasy Flight to make the rules/fluff for the game and get Bandai to make the minis. Perfect 40K then.

 Gamgee wrote:
I would give the edge to the landraider for being the more technically proficient model, but as I said its not a fair comparison to the team who made the tiger tank since that is how it actually looks in real life. If they made a line of more sci-fi tanks where they could let their creativity flow and make the model super detailed I would be willing to take a look at round two.

Lolwat? Have you ever had one of those historical vehicle kits in your hands? Their level of detail and design on every little piece blows GW's vehicles out of the water. I have an Italeri M113 converted as a Chaos Rhino and it's simply a much more detailed and minimalistic kit than the actual GW Rhino.

GW vehicles are mostly designed to be thrown around a table and endure the hits without taking too much damage, in terms of tiny details they simply can't compete with 1:35 historical kits.

 Gamgee wrote:
As for the tanks real life tanks are usually a bad comparison to sci fi because sci fi is designed to look visually appealing where as real tanks were designed to be real effective war machines while not costing a lot. So they have this minimalist military look.

You can't really compare the aesthetic choices, but you can compare things like minimum feature size, how well the parts fit, etc. And GW's vehicle kits lose pretty badly here. The detail elements are large and blocky, parts often have a bit of a gap so that it will still go together if a kid fails to align everything perfectly, etc. They're designed to be easy to build and paint for low-skill users and to survive careless handling by people who don't really care about their models.

Now, this doesn't make them bad models, and they're still ahead of most of what the rest of the non-historical industry is producing, but compared to historical kits they're definitely lacking if what you want is the best looking model possible. And they cost a lot more.

I mean your judging quality of the miniatures solely on detail. GW is clearly going for a certain aesthetic. Is Overwatch worse than the new Doom just because its a less detailed, cartoonish game? I'm sure GW could make models like that if they wanted too.

I think as for aesthetics go GW really does have everyone beat. While I like other miniature games I can't go anywhere else for the same type of visuals. I think its great that other companies are offering variety, but its not the same thing.

I mean, you did some comparisons, but what about dynamic models such as Nagash, Archaon or Alarielle the Everqueen? Is a Gundam really even comparable because it has more intricate joints? I don't really think you can compare the two.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 General Annoyance wrote:
I can't think of a company that can match their standards on the scale that they do.

Are you talking about only in plastics? Or maybe discounting any other company that isn't as big as them?

Because if you aren't discounting metal or resin I'd say Infinity blow GW out of the water:

Spoiler:

From their recently announced two player box that's coming soon.
Compared to the most recent GW release of infantry sized models I know of:

Spoiler:

Now don't get me wrong people have been saying they love those new tree guys, but personally I look at them individually and just see really flat, really static, plastic. I don't see much in the way of fine details and interesting textures, even the swirly magic glowy things look way too big and cartoony.


Now if you wanted to argue that doesn't count because it's not plastic and not a like for like comparison, I'd point to dreamforge games.

Spoiler:

Might be a little controversial to say but I like them every bit as much as:

Spoiler:

Something I can't imagine would be controversial to say is that I think the dreamforge leviathans, with their ridiculous amount of poseability and customization crap all over the Imperial Knight and it's entirely static legs.


Now if your problem was more with the fact that those companies are small little guys who don't have to produce things on the same scale as GW I'd probably argue Corvus Belli are a lot closer than you think, but let's forget that for now

How about Tamiya model kits? They have been around since 1946, and the detail on some of their stuff id astounding. Their tank kits include things like brass etc and metal barrels so you don't have to deal with horrible mould lines.

Spoiler:

Honestly compared to that I think GW's tanks look like goofy toys with massivly oversized rivets and gaps were the armour plates meet. Hell, the tracks on a Tamiya kit will usually be rubber and in the higher end ones actual metal links.

Spoiler:

And then there is Gundam kits.
Gundam kits are just cheating.
My roommate started building one the other day and off the sprue with him having done nothing other than clip it free, it had working pistons and joints. They have managed to build the mould in such a way that this kind of stuff is possible:

Spoiler:

I don't know much about Gundam, but I believe that is a Bandai kit, which is every bit as popular in Japan as GW is in the UK, if not more, and god damn I'd love to see that kinda of modeling technology come over to the model wargaming side of things.




I don't honestly see anything GW does that others don't do better at this point, but GW is charging as if they are the undisputed best in the industry and they don't need to worry about pricing their products too high because the quality will speak for itself.
Being an Australian I can confidently say it doesn't cut it here anymore, and they have priced themselves far too high to make it easy to bring in new players.

Gundam kits are playing off the success of their animated series, I have no idea why the series is popular or how it managed several stand alone series, most with at least three seasons (I found all of them kind of dull) but I have a mate who foams at the mouth whenever they release a new model, ironically enough a 40k player.

I've got an Infinity army. Putting metal models together is a nightmare, everything had to be filed down to fit reasonably snug (thank goodness I own a dremel kit) still, I'd be keen to expand that army when the models go plastic or resin.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Gundam kits are playing off the success of their animated series, I have no idea why the series is popular or how it managed several stand alone series, most with at least three seasons (I found all of them kind of dull) but I have a mate who foams at the mouth whenever they release a new model, ironically enough a 40k player.

I don't really think it's ironic, it actually makes sense. 40k and Gundam have a lot in common.
40k is really banking on a lot of its past success (Rogue Trader, 3rd, 5th edition) and fluff rather than any quality of the model or game. I think Gundam, state side anyway, got popular with Gundam Wing. The other series weren't nearly as popular imo.

I don't really see how its relevant though. It's pretty clear that the gundam destroys 40k models while still coming from, what I imagine to be, a niche market (I can't imagine gundam models sales equal say...legos). Price wise, infinity and historicals are more than a match it seems. 40k has a unique background that keeps it going, and that's it. Perhaps some additional platforms that get people interested (Dawn of war and other games).

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

I've got an Infinity army. Putting metal models together is a nightmare, everything had to be filed down to fit reasonably snug (thank goodness I own a dremel kit) still, I'd be keen to expand that army when the models go plastic or resin.

I had similar ideas about my skaven army. Making and painting all those slaves was annoying, and the larger pieces like the doom wheel made me want to smash it to pieces. I've never been so annoyed with any model in my entire life, and that's saying something.

There are other companies out there. Buy their stuff. Some GW stuff is priced high. Others, like "start collecting" boxes and the BaC box set are inexpensive.

If you want alternate models that can still be used in GW games (although not in a GW store), give the Mantic ones a shot. While some ARE lacking in quality, their Enforcers are pretty epic.

If you want to try other games, super heroes are pretty popular right now; get into the Knight Model Marvel or Batman game. My friend has played both and said they are similar, although the Marvel one is easier to start. A starter set can be found on eBay for $40 or less. Individual characters can be bought a for $20 or less ($20 is retail). Give it a shot, it's a helluva lot of fun. Maybe at some point GW stuff will become something your friends feel comfortable with the purchase point later; but try something else for now. Also, X-Wing is another good thing to start, but that game starts cheap and gets expensive. Marvel is currently cheap; $100 CAN currently get you a full lineup for one team, OR be just shy of buying all 3 starter sets.

Akiasura wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Gundam kits are playing off the success of their animated series, I have no idea why the series is popular or how it managed several stand alone series, most with at least three seasons (I found all of them kind of dull) but I have a mate who foams at the mouth whenever they release a new model, ironically enough a 40k player.

I don't really think it's ironic, it actually makes sense. 40k and Gundam have a lot in common.
40k is really banking on a lot of its past success (Rogue Trader, 3rd, 5th edition) and fluff rather than any quality of the model or game. I think Gundam, state side anyway, got popular with Gundam Wing. The other series weren't nearly as popular imo.



I don't really see how its relevant though. It's pretty clear that the gundam destroys 40k models while still coming from, what I imagine to be, a niche market (I can't imagine gundam models sales equal say...legos). Price wise, infinity and historicals are more than a match it seems. 40k has a unique background that keeps it going, and that's it. Perhaps some additional platforms that get people interested (Dawn of war and other games).

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

I've got an Infinity army. Putting metal models together is a nightmare, everything had to be filed down to fit reasonably snug (thank goodness I own a dremel kit) still, I'd be keen to expand that army when the models go plastic or resin.

I had similar ideas about my skaven army. Making and painting all those slaves was annoying, and the larger pieces like the doom wheel made me want to smash it to pieces. I've never been so annoyed with any model in my entire life, and that's saying something.

Skaven? They're the fantasy rats aren't they?

 Don Savik wrote:
I mean your judging quality of the miniatures solely on detail. GW is clearly going for a certain aesthetic. Is Overwatch worse than the new Doom just because its a less detailed, cartoonish game? I'm sure GW could make models like that if they wanted too.

I think as for aesthetics go GW really does have everyone beat. While I like other miniature games I can't go anywhere else for the same type of visuals. I think its great that other companies are offering variety, but its not the same thing.

I mean, you did some comparisons, but what about dynamic models such as Nagash, Archaon or Alarielle the Everqueen? Is a Gundam really even comparable because it has more intricate joints? I don't really think you can compare the two.

I very deliberately avoided making aesthetics comparisons as that is almost entirely subjective. I and not one bit impressed with Archaon or Alarielle because I find them just way too big and flashy with very little real... substance (for lack of a better word) to them.


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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've got an Infinity army. Putting metal models together is a nightmare, everything had to be filed down to fit reasonably snug (thank goodness I own a dremel kit) still, I'd be keen to expand that army when the models go plastic or resin.

I'd suggest picking up a newer blister if you see something you like and it's cheap. Anything since the Operation Icestorm set I think you'll find a pleasant surprise to put together, they have barely any flash to clean up and the arms always line up perfectly on the newer models in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
I would give the edge to the landraider for being the more technically proficient model

Sorry but that's just wrong. I'd say the land raider's only saving grace against a Tamiya tank is that it's easy to assemble for newer modelers. I mean have a look at the instructions for that Tiger:

Complex for sure, but far more technically proficient given that it is the kind of model that's treads work, has a ball join mounted gun, and has much smaller parts (like those handles that they use on the turrent hatch).

 SolarCross wrote:
Thanks for sharing that link, I enjoyed reading that. I guess 40k did start as a small skirmish game, way back when it was Rogue Trader, but it has creeped up in scope over the decades trying to become a full wargame until we are now in 7th where formations are floated that require hundreds of infantry and half a dozen tanks to form. The sad thing is despite the gargantuan cost in time and money it takes to field even a minimal Cadian Battle Group and the logistical absurdity of moving it, storing and even just trying to fit it on a table on deployment, a couple of hundred blokes and a few tanks is still not really much of an "army". Epic was really where 40k should have stayed to do big battles whilst remaining sane and sustainably saleable. 28mm should just have been for small skirmish, painting comps and dioramas.

That article is what first converted me to fan of 6mm(was bit of hard to refind it though. That site redesigned itself and article itself is years old so wasn't at least quickly found on new site. But what's put on internet STAYS in internet! It was just matter of figuring how to get it ).

Battles really look like battles with 6mm models and you can actually have room to manouver. Very important factor to prevent game from becoming simply close range slug fest.

And even long range weapons starts to feel more sensible. Basilisk in 28mm scale is just ridiculous. If enemy gets that close to basilisk something has gone seriously awry already!

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
I mean your judging quality of the miniatures solely on detail. GW is clearly going for a certain aesthetic. Is Overwatch worse than the new Doom just because its a less detailed, cartoonish game? I'm sure GW could make models like that if they wanted too.

I think as for aesthetics go GW really does have everyone beat. While I like other miniature games I can't go anywhere else for the same type of visuals. I think its great that other companies are offering variety, but its not the same thing.

I mean, you did some comparisons, but what about dynamic models such as Nagash, Archaon or Alarielle the Everqueen? Is a Gundam really even comparable because it has more intricate joints? I don't really think you can compare the two.

I very deliberately avoided making aesthetics comparisons as that is almost entirely subjective. I and not one bit impressed with Archaon or Alarielle because I find them just way too big and flashy with very little real... substance (for lack of a better word) to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I've got an Infinity army. Putting metal models together is a nightmare, everything had to be filed down to fit reasonably snug (thank goodness I own a dremel kit) still, I'd be keen to expand that army when the models go plastic or resin.

I'd suggest picking up a newer blister if you see something you like and it's cheap. Anything since the Operation Icestorm set I think you'll find a pleasant surprise to put together, they have barely any flash to clean up and the arms always line up perfectly on the newer models in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
I would give the edge to the landraider for being the more technically proficient model

Sorry but that's just wrong. I'd say the land raider's only saving grace against a Tamiya tank is that it's easy to assemble for newer modelers. I mean have a look at the instructions for that Tiger:

Spoiler:

Complex for sure, but far more technically proficient given that it is the kind of model that's treads work, has a ball join mounted gun, and has much smaller parts (like those handles that they use on the turrent hatch).

I don't see anything that makes it any harder to make than my Tau stuff. I'm probably one of the "newest" fans of modeling and 40k on these boards with not quite two years since I started this hobby. It's of comparable difficulty. My only experience is the Tau range. There is technicality more to its assembly, but when its done and visually presented the detail is lost.

I meant more from the point of view of how they produce the kits.

GW still can't do undercuts in their plastic as far as I know, while other companies are producing working joints and sockets on the sprue.

GW have, to their credit, innovated in the last few years. I have to imagine they made some big changes behind the scenes to be able to make plastic characters feasible, but they haven't done enough to stay ahead of their competitors in the wargaming world, nor catch up to the scale model kit folks.

Tamiya kits blow GW clean away and torpedo their already sinking ship.
I have two Tamiya 1/35 Panzer II's that I use as Leman Russ Exterminators. They are the right size, they look a lot better and they are far superior in detailing and design.
And they cost £10 each
GW really cannot compete.

(Actually I need to get some more - they are an amazing kit)

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Skaven? They're the fantasy rats aren't they?

Yes, to give you an idea of how large the force was, skaven slaves were roughly 2 points per model. A common strategy was to take 3-5 50 man blocks of slaves to tie the enemy up while you shot mortars, flame throwers, and warp guns into their lines while the doom wheel and larger monsters ran up the flank.
So, you had 150 models that cost about 300 points. You then usually took another 30 man block for your commander, and maybe some smaller blocks of plague monks and regular troops to take the weapon attachments. You could easy field 250-300 models, sometimes 500 if you were just infantry waves.
There are no slave kits so you had to use other models or clan rats. This meant your slaves, and just your slaves, could be $300-500 not including glue and paint. For a small part of your army that died in droves.

And the doom wheel was the hardest to make. The kit didn't fit together and the whole thing could fall apart at an instant. But it was incredibly strong, so many serious players wanted at least 1. Oh god was it horrible. Fantasy had a lot of centerpiece models like that...Tomb Kings had I believe the screaming skull, Ogres had the scrap launcher, Dark elves had their various beasts. All strong, all a pain to put together.

40k is rough to get people into, but fantasy was so much worse. And for a while, it was completely imbalanced. Makes 40k look like WM/H

Akiasura wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Skaven? They're the fantasy rats aren't they?

Yes, to give you an idea of how large the force was, skaven slaves were roughly 2 points per model. A common strategy was to take 3-5 50 man blocks of slaves to tie the enemy up while you shot mortars, flame throwers, and warp guns into their lines while the doom wheel and larger monsters ran up the flank.
So, you had 150 models that cost about 300 points. You then usually took another 30 man block for your commander, and maybe some smaller blocks of plague monks and regular troops to take the weapon attachments. You could easy field 250-300 models, sometimes 500 if you were just infantry waves.
There are no slave kits so you had to use other models or clan rats. This meant your slaves, and just your slaves, could be $300-500 not including glue and paint. For a small part of your army that died in droves.

And the doom wheel was the hardest to make. The kit didn't fit together and the whole thing could fall apart at an instant. But it was incredibly strong, so many serious players wanted at least 1. Oh god was it horrible. Fantasy had a lot of centerpiece models like that...Tomb Kings had I believe the screaming skull, Ogres had the scrap launcher, Dark elves had their various beasts. All strong, all a pain to put together.

40k is rough to get people into, but fantasy was so much worse. And for a while, it was completely imbalanced. Makes 40k look like WM/H

And the worst part was that the Skaven army was not even that competitive in 8th. As the Gunline and Avoidance Cavalry meta took over the poor Skaven really started to suffer. I have a clear recollection of one game I played against Chaos Dwarves that saw my entire 400+ model army wiped out by turn four.
Painting and collecting Skaven was a real chore too - you had hundreds of figures to get through and in the end I stopped caring and just gave up. I still get a few out and paint them up here and there but the sheer numbers that I have still to do have driven me off.
It is a pity. I do love my Skaven.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:


Skaven? They're the fantasy rats aren't they?

Yes, to give you an idea of how large the force was, skaven slaves were roughly 2 points per model. A common strategy was to take 3-5 50 man blocks of slaves to tie the enemy up while you shot mortars, flame throwers, and warp guns into their lines while the doom wheel and larger monsters ran up the flank.
So, you had 150 models that cost about 300 points. You then usually took another 30 man block for your commander, and maybe some smaller blocks of plague monks and regular troops to take the weapon attachments. You could easy field 250-300 models, sometimes 500 if you were just infantry waves.
There are no slave kits so you had to use other models or clan rats. This meant your slaves, and just your slaves, could be $300-500 not including glue and paint. For a small part of your army that died in droves.

And the doom wheel was the hardest to make. The kit didn't fit together and the whole thing could fall apart at an instant. But it was incredibly strong, so many serious players wanted at least 1. Oh god was it horrible. Fantasy had a lot of centerpiece models like that...Tomb Kings had I believe the screaming skull, Ogres had the scrap launcher, Dark elves had their various beasts. All strong, all a pain to put together.

40k is rough to get people into, but fantasy was so much worse. And for a while, it was completely imbalanced. Makes 40k look like WM/H

And the worst part was that the Skaven army was not even that competitive in 8th. As the Gunline and Avoidance Cavalry meta took over the poor Skaven really started to suffer. I have a clear recollection of one game I played against Chaos Dwarves that saw my entire 400+ model army wiped out by turn four.
Painting and collecting Skaven was a real chore too - you had hundreds of figures to get through and in the end I stopped caring and just gave up. I still get a few out and paint them up here and there but the sheer numbers that I have still to do have driven me off.
It is a pity. I do love my Skaven.

Then things managed to get worse somehow...

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Gundam kits are playing off the success of their animated series,

Isn't 40K playing off the 40K fluff? What is the difference? Not sure what your point is with this statement. One is playing off the animated series the other is playing off the fluff. If I didn't like the fluff so much I would have dropped 40K along time ago. I am sure not buying 40K minis because of the rules, that is for sure.

Davor wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Gundam kits are playing off the success of their animated series,

Isn't 40K playing off the 40K fluff? What is the difference? Not sure what your point is with this statement. One is playing off the animated series the other is playing off the fluff. If I didn't like the fluff so much I would have dropped 40K along time ago. I am sure not buying 40K minis because of the rules, that is for sure.

I imagine a difference is Gundam doesn't make some horrible writing to justify new kits. But then I wouldn't know.

GWs design philosophy has always been to sculpt a model then write it into the fluff, not the other way around.
That's hownwe get grap like the centurions.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tamiya kits blow GW clean away and torpedo their already sinking ship.
I have two Tamiya 1/35 Panzer II's that I use as Leman Russ Exterminators. They are the right size, they look a lot better and they are far superior in detailing and design.
And they cost £10 each
GW really cannot compete.

They're not trying to.

Tamiya make scale models. GW make gaming miniatures.