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The Chaos marines have nowhere as many cool special rules and get nowhere near as much attention as the false emperors slaves. I thought that Chaos Legions and warbands should get some unique chapter tactics (obviously renamed) type special rules to add flavour and make them a little better compared to the loyalist scum. I've come up with a few ideas, add your own below.
PLAYER CREATED WARBAND: Pick one special rule from furious charge, stubborn, adamantium will (or a few others). It applies to every unit with the chapter tactics special rule.
BLACK LEGION
Chosen and Terminators get free VoTLW.
Your army gains preferred enemy (Creed). Abbadon get Hatred (Creed).
WORLD EATERS
CSM squads can take Chainaxes/bolt pistols for free.
All units with this special rule get the rage and furious charge special rules.
All units with this special rule within 12" of Khârn have the stubborn special rule.
All Daemon princes with this special rule must be dedicated to Khorne.
DEATH GUARD
Any independent character with the CT (Death Guard) special rule has the FNP special rule.
Plague Marines get free VoTLW All units with this special rule have the slow and purposeful special rule.
All units with this special rule within 12" of Typhus may re-roll FNP.
All Daemon princes with this special rule must be dedicated to Nurgle.
EMPERORS CHILDREN
When a unit including a character with this special rule wins a challenge they may re-roll all to hit rolls for the remainder of that combat.
If you choose to field Fabius Bile pick one unit of Chosen, Chaos Space Marines, Raptors, Havocs, Chaos Terminators or a Chaos Lord/Sorceror in your army. This unit gets +1 to its initiative and attacks characteristics. However, the unit cannot take the mark of Slaanesh.
For every character Lucius the Eternal kills add one to his attacks characteristic.
Noise Marines get free VoTLW.
All Daemon princes with this special rule must be dedicated to Slaanesh.
IRON WARRIORS
Nominate one Vehicle in your army before the game starts. This vehicle now has the tank hunters special rule.
Havocs and Obliterators can re-roll to hit rolls.
Chaos Lords with this special rule may take fleshmetal.
WORD BEARERS
Every independent character with this special rule has the zealot special rule.
If you choose to field a Dark Apostle any unit he is attached to is fearless.
Cultists re roll morale, fear, and pinning checks when within 12" of a Dark Apostle.
Possessed Marines have preferred enemy.
NIGHT LORDS
Raptors and Warp Talons are fearless.
Your Warlord automatically causes fear.
If you so choose Night Fighting is in effect for the first turn.
If you kill the enemy warlord every unit within 18" must take a morale check.
All units with this special rule cause fear and have preferred enemy whilst Night Fighting is in effect.
ALPHA LEGION
One Chaos Space Marine, Chosen, Raptors, Terminators or cultists unit has infiltrate.
One Vehicle unit in your army has the Outflank special rule.
Chosen may take Sniper Rifles at 2pts/model.
Add +1 to reserve rolls twice per game.
RED CORSAIRS
Bikes and Raptors get Hit and Run.
Bikes become troops choices.
I would make one for the Crimson Slaughter but I know very little about them so I leave that up to you guys.
Give your thoughts and suggestions below!
WORK IN PROGRESS
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/10 22:24:40
What's up with all the VP stuff? I'd rather army wide buffs than victory points. A lot of these are really restrictive and some easily overshadow others. I don't see anyone taking anything other than Deathguard. You're nerf to kharn was way unnecessary, he already hits his own dudes in combat. Don't do the "must be your warlord" thing or "may not take..." it unnecessarily gets rid of options.
A better legion tactic would be more akin to the vanilla SMs. I.e. throw special rules at stuff.
Alpha Legion: Your army has the scout and stealth special rules.
Word Bearers: All characters have the Zealot special rule.
Night Lords: Your army causes fear and has the Shrouded special rule turn 1 and 2. Night fighting is always active first turn and your army has night vision except for cultists.
Thousand Sons: You always have first turn. Add one to al mastery levels of your armies' psykers for free.
Iron Warriors: You treat shooting attacks against your army as -1 strength.
Emperor's Children: Your army moves an additional 2" (a normal csm may move 8 inches now) and your army has crusader.
Death Guard: Treat poison shots as -1 to wound. Your army gains a 6+ fnp as well as Slow and Purposeful.
World Eaters: Your army has rage as well as furious charge. All models able to take ccw get them for free.
Black Legion: You get VotLW for free.
Needs more balancing but I like this style more compared to the more restrictive ones.
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
This was just off the top of my head and I get your point about special characters. Not enough people playing them already. The VP stuff was just what I came up with as I don't currently own a copy of 7th ed so I'm not 100% sure what all the special rules do exactly. I thought something like army wide infiltrate/scout or whatever would be OP. I've not read up on the SMCT for a while now so I forget how much they affect your army.
For your choices I like some of it, especially the Night Lords. Death Guard seems beneficial but balanced. I don't think Black Legion should get army wide free VoTLW maybe Terminators and Chosen only. Iron Warriors is a bit OPIMO, same with Thousand Sons. Emperors Children would either suck or be insane IMO. But I made some pretty obvious errors so it's not like I can complain.
I think you have some good starting points here, Cptn_Cronssant, but there might be room for polish.
For starters, I feel some of your Tactics are a bit scattered. They're trying to make a lot of minor changes that seem to be there to fix things. I feel this muddies things up a bit. For instance, any rule that modifies a special character can probably be removed, and the special characters can simply be fixed as their own separate issue. Alternatively, you could have a formation that includes the character and then requires X, Y, and Z units be taken with them using Legion Tactics W.
Loyalist tactics basically give you about two simple, solid rules that gives the entire army its own flavor. I feel that's a solid target to aim for.
Your Black Legion seem fine mechanically, though specifying Creed for some of those rules seems a bit. Odd. While I'm sure they don't care for Creed, giving them a bonus against a single model is annoying. And let's face it, they probably hate plenty of other people at least as much.
World Eaters: These seem fine for regular CSM, but a few thoughts:
* Drop the stubborn thing from Kharn and make it part of a formation or part of Kharn's own rules.
* Marines can already get a ccw + pistol for free unless they keep their bolters. Is this intentional?
* Rage and Furious Charge are both nice, but does this not step on Berzerkers' toes? I'm not all that familiar with Khorne, but what reason would I have for taking Berzerkers over CSM with World Eater tactics?
* Consider giving Berzerkers a buff or special option since they're sort of the World Eaters' thing.
DEATH GUARD
* Make the Typhus thing part of a formation or part of Typhus.
* These rules basically turn regular chaos marines into discount plague marines with fewer special options. While this fills a point niche, it also sort of robs each unit of their uniqueness and identity (such as it is). In other words, you're stepping on plague marine toes.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN
* I'm not sure I like your challenge rule. Emperor's Children are great duelists, so it would make sense to give them a bonus in duels, but your rules don't help them in challenges at all. Instead, you give them bonuses if they just so happen to win a challenge. Why not a simple, "May reroll to-hit rolls in a challenge" or, "Enemies in a challenge only hit on 5's" or something?
* Make the special character rules part of a formation or part of the characters themselves.
IRON WARRIORS:
*Mostly okay. The vehicle you give your buff to will be the first vehicle to die though. Consider changing this to something that will help all the vehicles in the army thus letting you enjoy your tactics longer and encouraging you to run a fluffy, mechanized list.
* What is flesh metal, and how much does it cost?
WORD BEARERS:
*Mostly fine.
*Just give the Dark Apostle Fearless; the rule already confers to any unit he joins, so this just simplifies the rule.
* Possessed getting Preferred Enemy is okay, but they'll already get half the benefits if they happen to roll the shred result on their random table. No big deal, but something to think about.
* I like the cultist emphasis, but it would be nice if there was a bit more to help out other units as well. Maybe some sort of bonus for marines or some sort of bonus when allied with daemons? Maybe let ICs with CT(Word Bearers) join daemon units and cause them to replace daemonic instability with fearless while the IC is attached? The idea being that Word Bearers are in tight with daemons and know how to deal with them relatively safely.
NIGHT LORDS:
*These aren't bad, but as with any fear-based army, you'll lose the benefit of your special any time you face a fearless or ATSKNF army. Consider giving them a rule that lets Fear work even on Fearless/ATSKNF units?
*The warlord killing thing is cool, but also a bit situational. It's something that will only come up once per game at most, and units with Ld7 or better will pass the morale test more often than not.
*Night Lords are tricky because their thing is Fear, and Fear-based effects are kind of lack luster against many armies right now.
ALPHA LEGION:
*Several loyalist chapter tactics grant army-wide scout. Don't be afraid to spread the infiltrate/stealth type rules around some more.
* Chosen with sniper rifles is cool and fluffy, but it's also something I would probably never take. Marine snipers sort of work because you usually need some sort of troop anyway and because they're cheap. A chosen is a very expensive platform for a heavy 1 weapon that only wounds half the time. I'm biased, but I personally like the idea of them unlocking a human sniper or special weapons team representing cultists that they've given a little extra training to. Basically IG veterans, but more chaos-y.
THOUSAND SONS:
*Where are the Thousand Sons?
*Should the Red King feel slighted that you forgot his wise and powerful children?
* I suggest letting them ignore some of the more silly chaos psyker restrictions so that aspiring sorcerers can take powers from other disciplines, etc.
* Maybe give them some sort of protection against Perils of the Warp.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Yeah mine would probably need some rebalancing too.
And don't worry, armt wide scout is becoming a thing with the Khan special character. I made these deliberately pretty strong because I wanted CSM to get a little power buff, you've got to admit they're pretty low in the pile as of now.
For Black Legion, I thought VotLW was balanced because it only gets powerful when you're facing marines, against other armies it's just +1 ld.
Iron Warriors is pretty strong as well but I wanted to make 20 man footslogging squads viable and fit their fluff. Suggestions to tone it down a bit but still make sense? (Imagine how unstoppable a 20 man squad with MoN would be! )
My reasoning for Thousand Sons always getting first turn is because they use a lot of Precognition sorcerers so I thought it'd male sense for them to know when the enemy strikes. Same for the sorcerers. Perhaps instead of an extra ml re roll psychic tests of 1?
For Emperor's Children I just wanted them to be a very fast mobile army. To make it stronger maybe +1 strength to sonic weapons? An extra initiative when you charge?
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
And don't worry, armt wide scout is becoming a thing with the Khan special character. I made these deliberately pretty strong because I wanted CSM to get a little power buff, you've got to admit they're pretty low in the pile as of now.
For Black Legion, I thought VotLW was balanced because it only gets powerful when you're facing marines, against other armies it's just +1 ld.
Iron Warriors is pretty strong as well but I wanted to make 20 man footslogging squads viable and fit their fluff. Suggestions to tone it down a bit but still make sense? (Imagine how unstoppable a 20 man squad with MoN would be! )
My reasoning for Thousand Sons always getting first turn is because they use a lot of Precognition sorcerers so I thought it'd male sense for them to know when the enemy strikes. Same for the sorcerers. Perhaps instead of an extra ml re roll psychic tests of 1?
For Emperor's Children I just wanted them to be a very fast mobile army. To make it stronger maybe +1 strength to sonic weapons? An extra initiative when you charge?
Automatically going first invalidates other options your opponent may take. You might get a warlord trait that grants a bonus to going first, for instance, and this chapter tactic just kind of invalidates that. Also, going first isn't necessarily a good thing. Lots of competitive lists these days end up null deploying and beta striking. So I"m not a huge fan of the "always go first" thing. ^_^;
Are Emperor's Children really all that fast and mobile? I know Slaaneshi daemons are, but I don't recall speed really being that big a thing with them. +1 strength to sonics would be nice, but that's sort of stepping on the toes of Slaaneshi sorcerers (not that they couldn't stack). What Noise Marines specifically kind of need is some way to marry all these different advantages they have. They have a template and assault profile on some of their guns and have +1 initiative from their marks, but they can't assault if they fire their sonic blasters. Their sonic blasters and blast masters have good ranged fire power, but then you don't move at all and are unlikely to do much doom sirening or assaulting. Maybe give them relentless so they can actually use all their advantages?
Going from Initaitive 4 to 5 with their marks is useful because it lets you strike before marines and simo with eldar. Going from initiative 5 to 6 less useful because it will matter against fewer opponents. Eldar will be annoyed, sure, but marines don't care about the extra +1, and firew warriors/IG were already going after you even before you took a mark of Slaanesh.
To me, Emperor's Children are less about raw speed (they aren't White Scars) and more about martial perfection and sensual hedonism. FNP banners represent the latter pretty well. I feel like some sort of challenge-related ability would be a good way to represent the former.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:My reasoning for Thousand Sons always getting first turn is because they use a lot of Precognition sorcerers so I thought it'd male sense for them to know when the enemy strikes. Same for the sorcerers. Perhaps instead of an extra ml re roll psychic tests of 1?
Note:
Chapter tactics usually come in sets of two.
Personally, here's what I'd recommend for Thousand Sons:
1. All models in this detachment with the "Thousand Sons" chapter tactics, veterans of the long war and mark of tzeentch may reroll invulnerable saving throw rolls of 1.
2. All characters in this detachment with the "Thousand Sons" chapter tactics, veterans of the long war and mark of tzeentch may reroll all results of 1 when rolling to manifest warp charges or deny the witch.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/07/11 08:15:13
#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:My reasoning for Thousand Sons always getting first turn is because they use a lot of Precognition sorcerers so I thought it'd male sense for them to know when the enemy strikes. Same for the sorcerers. Perhaps instead of an extra ml re roll psychic tests of 1?
Note:
Chapter tactics usually come in sets of two.
Personally, here's what I'd recommend for Thousand Sons:
1. All models in this detachment with the "Thousand Sons" chapter tactics, veterans of the long war and mark of tzeentch may reroll invulnerable saving throw rolls of 1.
2. All characters in this detachment with the "Thousand Sons" chapter tactics, veterans of the long war and mark of tzeentch may reroll all results of 1 when rolling to manifest warp charges or deny the witch.
I'm not for it. They need a tactic that can be applied to all troops, not just to Rubic marines and psykers. Maybe Interceptor?
Wyldhunt wrote: I think you have some good starting points here, Cptn_Cronssant, but there might be room for polish.
For starters, I feel some of your Tactics are a bit scattered. They're trying to make a lot of minor changes that seem to be there to fix things. I feel this muddies things up a bit. For instance, any rule that modifies a special character can probably be removed, and the special characters can simply be fixed as their own separate issue. Alternatively, you could have a formation that includes the character and then requires X, Y, and Z units be taken with them using Legion Tactics W.
Loyalist tactics basically give you about two simple, solid rules that gives the entire army its own flavor. I feel that's a solid target to aim for.
Your Black Legion seem fine mechanically, though specifying Creed for some of those rules seems a bit. Odd. While I'm sure they don't care for Creed, giving them a bonus against a single model is annoying. And let's face it, they probably hate plenty of other people at least as much.
World Eaters: These seem fine for regular CSM, but a few thoughts:
* Drop the stubborn thing from Kharn and make it part of a formation or part of Kharn's own rules.
* Marines can already get a ccw + pistol for free unless they keep their bolters. Is this intentional?
* Rage and Furious Charge are both nice, but does this not step on Berzerkers' toes? I'm not all that familiar with Khorne, but what reason would I have for taking Berzerkers over CSM with World Eater tactics?
* Consider giving Berzerkers a buff or special option since they're sort of the World Eaters' thing.
DEATH GUARD
* Make the Typhus thing part of a formation or part of Typhus.
* These rules basically turn regular chaos marines into discount plague marines with fewer special options. While this fills a point niche, it also sort of robs each unit of their uniqueness and identity (such as it is). In other words, you're stepping on plague marine toes.
EMPEROR'S CHILDREN
* I'm not sure I like your challenge rule. Emperor's Children are great duelists, so it would make sense to give them a bonus in duels, but your rules don't help them in challenges at all. Instead, you give them bonuses if they just so happen to win a challenge. Why not a simple, "May reroll to-hit rolls in a challenge" or, "Enemies in a challenge only hit on 5's" or something?
* Make the special character rules part of a formation or part of the characters themselves.
IRON WARRIORS:
*Mostly okay. The vehicle you give your buff to will be the first vehicle to die though. Consider changing this to something that will help all the vehicles in the army thus letting you enjoy your tactics longer and encouraging you to run a fluffy, mechanized list.
* What is flesh metal, and how much does it cost?
WORD BEARERS:
*Mostly fine.
*Just give the Dark Apostle Fearless; the rule already confers to any unit he joins, so this just simplifies the rule.
* Possessed getting Preferred Enemy is okay, but they'll already get half the benefits if they happen to roll the shred result on their random table. No big deal, but something to think about.
* I like the cultist emphasis, but it would be nice if there was a bit more to help out other units as well. Maybe some sort of bonus for marines or some sort of bonus when allied with daemons? Maybe let ICs with CT(Word Bearers) join daemon units and cause them to replace daemonic instability with fearless while the IC is attached? The idea being that Word Bearers are in tight with daemons and know how to deal with them relatively safely.
NIGHT LORDS:
*These aren't bad, but as with any fear-based army, you'll lose the benefit of your special any time you face a fearless or ATSKNF army. Consider giving them a rule that lets Fear work even on Fearless/ATSKNF units?
*The warlord killing thing is cool, but also a bit situational. It's something that will only come up once per game at most, and units with Ld7 or better will pass the morale test more often than not.
*Night Lords are tricky because their thing is Fear, and Fear-based effects are kind of lack luster against many armies right now.
ALPHA LEGION:
*Several loyalist chapter tactics grant army-wide scout. Don't be afraid to spread the infiltrate/stealth type rules around some more.
* Chosen with sniper rifles is cool and fluffy, but it's also something I would probably never take. Marine snipers sort of work because you usually need some sort of troop anyway and because they're cheap. A chosen is a very expensive platform for a heavy 1 weapon that only wounds half the time. I'm biased, but I personally like the idea of them unlocking a human sniper or special weapons team representing cultists that they've given a little extra training to. Basically IG veterans, but more chaos-y.
THOUSAND SONS:
*Where are the Thousand Sons?
*Should the Red King feel slighted that you forgot his wise and powerful children?
* I suggest letting them ignore some of the more silly chaos psyker restrictions so that aspiring sorcerers can take powers from other disciplines, etc.
* Maybe give them some sort of protection against Perils of the Warp.
1. Fleshmetal is the only non-terminator 2+ armor save chaos gets. It is only available to warpsmiths.
2. The Thousand Sons wouldn't be able to field anything save sorcerers and Rubric Marines. Because of the Rubric, every non sorceror is basically a drone under the command of a sorceror who acts in his own interests IIRC.
3. These were mostly off the top of my head so it won't be perfect.
First off, remove the 4 God-specific 'Legion Traits' from the main codex, since they really don't belong under the main 'Vanilla' umbrella, in the same way that Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Wolves & Grey Knights don't belong under the "Codex Marines" umbrella.
Remember, in the case of the dedicated Legions, ALL their units are true cult units! (ie: Every single World Eater *IS* a Khorne Berserker, while the *only* units in a Thousand Sons army are Sorcerers and their Rubricae, etc...)
To deal with the 4 dedicated Legions, it'd be much cleaner & infinitely better to give CSM's 2 books; 1 for the 'basic' Codex + 1 'Angels of Death' style codex that focuses purely on the 4 dedicated Legions... Including the God specific spell Lores, themed formations (this is where you'd get proper Cult Termies, Deathguard/Noise Marine Havocs, Emp's Children psycho bikers, etc...), and each God Legion having their own Decurion style detachment.
Now we leave the basic codex for the 'basic' non-dedicated Legions and their relevant Legion Traits, general formations, a couple new 'Chaos only' Psychic lores, (Malefic, Dark Rituals, etc...), the 'main' Chaoscurion and such.
As for what 'Tactics' each Legion should get?
Black Legion = Crusader + Stubborn + 'Hatred: IoM'
Alpha Legion = Scout + Stealth, Cultist units gain Infiltrate.
Word Bearers = all IC's & Cultist units gain Zealot, Possessed gain Obsec, no penalties for casting Malefic powers.
Iron Warriors = +1 damage on Building damage table, Tank Hunters + Stubborn when in cover (ie: Ruins, Fortifications, etc...)
Night Lords = Fear + Night Vision + Hit-and-Run for all Raptors, Warptalons & Bikes.
Then add in a tactic for the Red Corsairs/Crimson Slaughter to give a nod to the more 'modern' age Renegades.
As for the various Marks of Chaos?
Honestly, I'd remove the whole 'buy for pts' and simply make them a 'free' option, with both Daemons and Chaos Marines sharing the same rule benefit. (ie: MoK/Daemon of Khorne = Furious Charge).
Between essentially 'free' Marks of Chaos and the added boost of Legion Tactics, we could then readily increase a basic Chaos Marine to the same 14pts/model that Loyalists pay for theirs.
Loyalists still get a bit more in terms of 'free perks' for their points, mainly because ATSKNF is beyond broken as feth. (ideally, I love to see this nerfed to; ATSKNF = may always attempts to re-group w/re-roll + re-roll failed Fear tests)
Martel732 wrote: CSM don't have chapters, but they should certainly get some extra rules.
Very insightful comment there. You're right, they don't have chapters, just coherent warbands hundreds or thousands strong that contain members of the original traitor legions. Sort of like the way codex chapters are actually watered-down fragments of loyalist legions hundreds of generations removed from the original legionaries? Wait, no, it's not. Go ahead though, try to argue that legion warbands larger than any chapter with still-living primarchs are less deserving of legion-specific rules than tiny codex chapters with few or no descendants whose primarch is long dead or missing.
FYI not every chaos warband is one of the new horribly bland Renegade messes of fluff vomit, twisted to fit GW's lackluster rules and poor model support.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/11 21:23:27
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
Martel732 wrote: CSM don't have chapters, but they should certainly get some extra rules.
Very insightful comment there. You're right, they don't have chapters, just warbands hundreds or thousands strong that are remnants of legions, the same way codex chapters are actually tiny fragments of legions. Go ahead though, try to argue that legion warbands larger than any chapter with still-living primarchs are less deserving of legion-specific rules than small codex chapters with few or no descendants whose primarch is long dead or missing.
FYI not every chaos warband is one of the new horribly bland Renegade messes of fluff vomit, twisted to fit GW's lackluster rules and poor model support.
At least this comment is contributing something. You've gotta admit, your previous post sounded an awful lot like "CSM don't deserve legion traits because they're warbands now." Especially when your point was addressed right in the original post:
I thought that Chaos Legions and warbands should get some unique chapter tactics (obviously renamed) type special rules
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
Death Guard makes plague marines worse as now they are Slow and Pirposeful and can't fire overwatch...... Seriously, CSM needs to be buffed to stand any chance against newer codexes, not nerfed!!
KhorneontheCobb wrote: Death Guard makes plague marines worse as now they are Slow and Pirposeful and can't fire overwatch...... Seriously, CSM needs to be buffed to stand any chance against newer codexes, not nerfed!!
...But they get a 4+ fnp and are practically immune to dark eldar. Besides, it's not like getting charged by anything short of wulfen is scary. They should be blown off the map before they get closed to you.
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
I think the biggest challenge of doing "chaos chapter tactics" is that the "big 4" god aligned legions have more in common with Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc in how they should be approach and demand so many more tweeks and changes to a core list to adequately reflect their distinctiveness. To that end, I think it makes more sense to exclude them from the "Chapter Tactic" approach and to write them a more extensive set of rules.
When you look at Codex Space Marines, there is a certain consistency to the Chapter Tactics bordering on an attempt to balance them to each other. There are exceptions but in general each Chapter Tactic presents two rules, one that impacts very broadly the army and one rule that tends to single out and improve the use of a particular unit or unit type.
There is a certain simplicity to the loyalist chapter tactics that makes it easy to understand and use. This is important when you consider the general perception of the CSM 3.5 codex being so full of different rules, combination, and variation that it made it difficult for CSM's opponents to follow. So limiting yourself to some similar self imposed constraint is beneficial even if it doesn't paint the most complete depiction of a CSM force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/15 21:27:59
I actually don't mind the layout of the current CSM codex. The internal balance and external balance is absolute garbage though and easily one of the most uninspired pieces of work this century.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
aka_mythos wrote: I think the biggest challenge of doing "chaos chapter tactics" is that the "big 4" god aligned legions have more in common with Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, etc in how they should be approach and demand so many more tweeks and changes to a core list to adequately reflect their distinctiveness. To that end, I think it makes more sense to exclude them from the "Chapter Tactic" approach and to write them a more extensive set of rules.
I somewhat disagree, but only in a case of level rather than direction. The Angels are Codex-adherent Chapters with a couple special trappings (more so than Black Templars!). Space Wolves from Codex Marines are sufficiently different to represent the Cultist Legions differences from regular Chaos Marines, at least in my opinion.
I think the Daemonkin books are the best direction to take the actual Cult Legions. Not on a literal one for one basis, but in the fact that of how far they go in differentiating these Marines from others.
aka_mythos wrote: When you look at Codex Space Marines, there is a certain consistency to the Chapter Tactics bordering on an attempt to balance them to each other. There are exceptions but in general each Chapter Tactic presents two rules, one that impacts very broadly the army and one rule that tends to single out and improve the use of a particular unit or unit type.
There is a certain simplicity to the loyalist chapter tactics that makes it easy to understand and use. This is important when you consider the general perception of the CSM 3.5 codex being so full of different rules, combination, and variation that it made it difficult for CSM's opponents to follow. So limiting yourself to some similar self imposed constraint is beneficial even if it doesn't paint the most complete depiction of a CSM force.
What I loved about the 3.5 CSM codex was the amount of customization that it had. The FOC shenanigans were the worst part about it, though, and definitely let to the biggest imbalances that we are trying to avoid. Most of that customization just isn't going to happen any more, though, and the FOC shenanigans will be limited to the Formations and Choice Detachment that the codex provides, but I do think that making a plethora of options available to Characters (both Independent and Unit) can go a long way towards that more ad hoc affair that Chaos Warbands have.
Realistically, I do think that if we took the Horus Heresy Legion Astartes rules and just twisted them here and there to match Chaos, we would be looking at the start of an effective codex. Everything else is tweaking individual units to match a certain concept that the units are supposed to provide.
One word on the Choice Detachment, aka Strike Force, and that would be to not force all the Choices to use the same Legion Tactics. This would best represent the combination of lesser Warbands joining to a greater one which may not all come from the same source.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
I do like the idea of each Legion/force having:
-A "Favored Unit", which automatically gets VoTLW for free.
-A "Unique Item" that can be taken for their HQs.
-A "Special Rule" for the army.
(Optionally) a Restricted Unit which cannot be taken. So no Sorcerers for World Eaters, Bikers for Death Guard, etc.
World Eaters: Favored Unit (Berserkers), Unique Item (Berserker Glaive: S+1, AP 3, Rampage, Two-Handed, 25-points), Special Rule: Blood For the Blood God (When a unit with VoTLW rolls an 8 or more for charge distance, it adds a further +1 Strength to its charges)
Death Guard: Favored Unit (Plague Marines), Unique Item: Pandemic Staff (At the start of each chaos player turn nominate an enemy unit within 12". It suffers -1 Toughness for the turn), Special Rule: The Cloud of Flies (Enemy models may not Overwatch against Death Guard with VoTLW)
Emperor's Children: Favored Unit(Noise Marines), Unique Item: Combat Drugs (ala 3rd ed), Special Rule: Flawless Exemplars (Models with VoTLW have +D3 WS, Init, and Attacks in Challenges [roll before each challenge]).
Thousand Sons: Favored Unit (Sorcerers), Unique Item: Warp Talisman (May take a S4 AP 1 hit to generate +d3 Warp Charges), Special Rule: The Twisting Path. (Should you have exactly 9 Warp Charges left, you manifest on a 2+ for your next roll).
Alpha Legion: Favored Unit (Chosen), Unique Item: ?, Special Rule: Corruption (May force a Pinning Check on 2d6-drop lowest on an enemy unit each turn)
Night Lords: Favored Unit (Raptors), Unique Item: ?, Special Rule: Terror (May force the first turn or an additional turn to be Night Fight. Fear while Night Fight is up)
Iron Warriors: Favored Unit (Havocs), Unique Item: Servo Arm, Special Rule: Siege Experts (models with VoTLW have +1 damage vs fortifications/stubborn on fortifications)
Black Legion: Favored Unit (Terminators), Unique Item: ?, Special Rule: Death To The False Emperor: Models with VoTLW have Preferred Enemy: Imperials (period).
Word Bearers: Favored Unit (Possessed), Unique Item ?, Special Rule: Do You Hear The Voices? A Possessed unit in close combat may target another Chaos Space Marines with VoTLW that has joined the same Close Combat. Should that Chaos Space Marines unit pass a Leadership Check, it may benefit from the same Possessed effect.
Red Corsairs: Favored Unit(Bikers), Unique Item ?, Special Rule: Any model with VoTLW that doesn't have S&P has Hit & Run
The problem with all that stuff is that it's not really useful. A more broad rule would be better compared to "you must have this one unit and only then it has a chance to not even work in this scenario".
Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!
Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda
Here's what I'd did with my houserules for chaos...
Spoiler:
⦁ all non-vehicle chaos space marine units with the exception of cultists gain the following special rules...
Fear is for the weak: if the unit fails a morale, pinning, or fear test remove one non-character model from the unit. the unit counts as having passed. if there are no models left besides characters, the unit fails the check.
treachery and violence: this rule grants a bonus to all non-cultist, vehicle, or monstrous creature with daemonic possession units in your detachment and hellbrutes some bonuses listed below.you have three ranks worth of dark strategems to use. each stratagem will have the rank value listed next to the name. these will state what units benefit from the bonus
A. cult following (1): models that are not named characters may purchase up to 2 cultists for 5 points per model. these cultists are a part of the unit in every way and may purchase upgrades normally with the exception that if they choose a chaos mark it must be the same as the one chosen by their parent unit. while cultists are alive any wounds allocated by "look out sir!" and "fear is for the weak" will be put on a cultist. (even if the cultist isn't the closest model, though they still must be within 6" for "look out sir!")
B. ambush artists(1): units of chaos space marines gain outflank.
C. hard won precision (1): treat all emplaced weapons and weapon emplacements as mastercrafted when being fired by units in this detachment.
D. terrorize (2): morale tests caused by unmarked units are taken at a negative 2 penalty. unmarked units with veterans of the long war gain the rampage and fear USRs.
E. bloody handed butchers (2): units with the mark of khorne consolidate d6+3 inches. v.o.t.l.w. with the mark of khorne may consolidate to within 1" of enemy units. if they do so, they count as being engaged as normal. the enemy unit may fire overwatch if they would normally be allowed to do so.
F. blessed disciples (2): any unit with a mark of chaos may reroll any results they wish on the chaos boon table. v.o.t.l.w. units with any chaos mark may reroll all failed to hit rolls on any even numbered turn.
G. orchestrated destruction (2): units with the mark of slaanesh may run after firing their weapons in the shooting phase. v.o.t.l.w. units with the mark of slaanesh may charge a unit even if they fired at a different unit in the shooting phase.
H. iron defense (2) unmarked units gain shred when firing emplaced weapons or weapon emplacements. unmarked units with v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all saves versus ranged attacks when embarked within or on fortifications.
I. mastery of misdirection (2): enemy units wishing to fire at unmarked units must do so at a -1 penalty to hit. enemy units firing at unmarked units with v.o.t.l.w. must reroll all 6' to hit.
J. blessed fecundity (2): all bolter weapons wielded by units with the mark of nurgle gain poison (5+). units with the mark of nurgle and v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all feel no pain saves and may take feel no pain saves against weapons that cause instant death.
K. glory unto chaos (2): any marked chaos unit will allow daemons of the same alignment to charge after deep strike so long as they arrived within 6" of the unit. any marked chaos unit with v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls so long as their target is within 6" of them and a chaos daemon unit with the same daemonic alignment.
L. sorcerous masters (2): all characters with the mark of tzeentch may purchase one mastery level more than they would normally be allowed for 25 points. this includes units which would not normally do so. units with the mark of tzeentch and v.o.t.l.w. may harness warp charges on a 3+
if a unit has the mark of slaanesh it may add sonic blasters to their ranged weapons and blastmasters to their heavy weapons/hellbrute weapon options for the points listed under the noise marines unit profile.
if a unit with the daemon keyword takes a mark of the chaos gods, they may also gain the daemon of chaos bonus listed with the daemon prince for that god for free. if they choose to do so, they replace fearless for daemonic instability.
veterans of the long war change "space marines" to "armies of the imperium"
Aspiring champions and Aspiring Sorcerers can take terminator armor for 15 points.
When a character from the army issues or accepts a challenge, roll on the Chaos Boon Table immediately (instead of afterward). If the character is fighting in a challenge with a unique character, add +1 to the tens dice for determining the Boon (max of 6).
Marked chaos sorcerers must select at least half of their psychic powers from their god's specific table or either daemonology school rounded down. if they choose to use their god's discipline, they gain a +1 to their dice roll to manifest (meaning they usually succeed on a 3+)
Chaos marines may purchase one special weapon per 5 models
Rhinos may take assault ramps as an upgrade for 10 points. This makes them assault vehicles
Abaddon is a Lord of War.
mark of nurgle gives +1 feel no pain (or 6+ feel no pain if the unit does not already have it) to a maximum of 4+
Rhinos may be selected as a fast attack choice.
warp talons do not roll for scatter when entering from deep strike reserves.
If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen.
If a model with daemonic possession would consume a vehicle it is transporting, that vehicle suffers a glancing hit instead.
Ahriman may take powers from the divination school
Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex space marine book. Your optional upgrades remain the same.
All non-unique units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each
The daemonic possession upgrade grants the “daemon” special rule to whatever unit it is equipped to.
Points adjustments(with this setup, any monstrous creatures that have the “demon forge” rule lose a wound instead of a hullpoint when they roll a “1” after activation, explode when they lose their last wound just like a vehicle would due to an explodes result, and are allowed to fire one more weapon than usual when shooting)
Khorne Lord of Skulls: add gaze of pain (24’ S10 ap1 heavy 2) init 4, and 3 hull points 888 points
Forge fiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 165
Maulerfiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 140
Defiler (becomes a monstrous creature with 5 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 195
Helldrake (becomes a flying monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 175
Daemon prince 105
Hellbrute (4A base) 100
Land raider 255 (fast vehicle)
Vindicator 95
Predator 75
Rhino 35
Thunderhawk gunship: 588
drop pod: 40 points. may take dirge casters dedicated transport for all non cultist infantry units and fast attack choice otherwise.
Since Crimson Slaughter seems to be somewhat unloved - which is incomprehensible to me - i'll add one that might fit their style:
CRIMSON SLAUGHTER 'chapter tactics'.. this is disgusting to think of, actually.
- 'Slaves of the Voices AoS-Style': Possessed of a Crimson Slaughter combined Arms Detachment & Formation may roll on the Slaves of the Voices Mutation table OR pick one of the Mutations.
- 'Harbinger of the Tormented' - Every unit has the Fear Special rule (C&P from the Supplement)
- 'Renegades of the Voices': Every unit without a mark (excluding Vehicles, Cultists & Cult-Marines) get the 'Slaves of the Voices' Special rule.
Edit: Slaves of the Voices Mutation table is:
Spoiler:
1 Spirit Beacon: The unit, and any vehicle they are embarked upon, gains the 'Shrouded' special rule.
2 Beast Form: The unit's type changes from Infantry to Beast.
3 Incorporeal Bodies: The unit's invulnerable safe is increased to 3+, and they gain the 'Rending' special rule.
I think that would fit their style - all about dem voices
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/02 10:14:24
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