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I believe that the once feared CSM deserve a codex that is both extensive and competitive like the 3.5 edition. Right now they're walking behind thanks to all the updates and expanded supplements the loyalists gained in recent years. I even stopped playing CSM. Now on DakkDakka I want to brew a fan codex that makes Chaos Marines interesting again. To be the threat for the Imperium it always was.

Right now I'm starting with the troops, cult units, Terminators, Raptors and wargear and artifacts. If you have suggestions or other stuff to add, just post it please.

Some thing it will have:
- The whole army will have Stubborn and automatic regroup test
- Modified Possessed with options
- Option to make units daemonic
- Terminator Cult units available. Costs and rules will be changed
- Instead of taking an Aspiring Champion/Sorcerer as the unit leader you can take one of the IC HQ characters as the leader of the unit
- Daemon Prince has Eternal Warrior back
- Units with a specific mark can take items dedicated to their chosen Chaos god
- No formations.
- Daemon units added
- Chaos Chaplain

I'll keep it up to date.

You don't think army wide fearless is a bit much? The only other thing with something like that is Deathwing and they cost 40+ for each model.

Fearless is actually worse than ATSKNF because you cant choose to fall back from being caught in a bad combat situation. AFAIK anyway.

In response to OP
-yes to fearless except cultists
-Make Possesed good:+1 init, run and charge in the same turn, pay for options on mutation table, can have all. Unit gives 12" bubble of mutations they paid for "Daemonic inspiration" except AP3 claws
-Just make chaos terminators better or oblits cheaper
-Too OP
-Definitely give prince eternal warrior back.
-I like the items
-Formations are a part of the game sadly but it would be nice to have a cad strong enough to compete

My own additions:

-Give mauler-fiends initiative 5, your a demon machine dog for christ sake.
-Put soul grinders into CSM codex
-Defilers AV14 front and side.
-warp talons can charge from deep strike
-chaos lords can take a daemon USR (20pnts)
-You can deep strike safely within 8" of icon if daemon or mark is of same alignment as icon.
-Helbrute has 5 attacks CCW, can take a mark. You can choose from crazed table. IWND
-Legion tactics
-Forgefiends need to be cheaper, BS/WS 5, and skyfire.
-Chaplains give custom bubbles you can pay for like: +1 Init, +1 strength, +1 toughness, BS+1, etc.
-Warpsmith need to be within 12" to restore a hull point. Allow you to take additional walkers/vehicles.
-Fabius Bile allows you to field additional chaos spawn. can create chaos spawn out of wounded enemies (must get last wound)
-DP cheaper

 Dayknight wrote:
Fearless is actually worse than ATSKNF because you cant choose to fall back from being caught in a bad combat situation. AFAIK anyway.

ATSKNF can't choose to fall out of combat either

CrownAxe wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:
Fearless is actually worse than ATSKNF because you cant choose to fall back from being caught in a bad combat situation. AFAIK anyway.

ATSKNF can't choose to fall out of combat either

+1

 Dayknight wrote:

In response to OP
-yes to fearless except cultists
-Make Possesed good:+1 init, run and charge in the same turn, pay for options on mutation table, can have all. Unit gives 12" bubble of mutations they paid for "Daemonic inspiration" except AP3 claws
-Just make chaos terminators better or oblits cheaper
-Too OP
-Definitely give prince eternal warrior back.
-I like the items
-Formations are a part of the game sadly but it would be nice to have a cad strong enough to compete

- As planned.
- I could give it a chance. It will be a 50/50 since other units will have the option to become daemonic Marines.
- A shall do that by adding some neat rules (of course they get fearless too) and lower the costs for certain stuff. Buffing Obliterators is a no-brainer.
- I don’t see a problem with it. But I’m also planning to create a budget Chaos Lord and Sorcerer option. Just like having both Commander or a Captain as a choice.
- Hell yeah!
- Good. More soon, and undivided gets items too.
- Formations are not mandatorily.

 Dayknight wrote:

My own additions:

-Give mauler-fiends initiative 5, your a demon machine dog for christ sake.
-Put soul grinders into CSM codex
-Defilers AV14 front and side.
-warp talons can charge from deep strike
-chaos lords can take a daemon USR (20pnts)
-You can deep strike safely within 8" of icon if daemon or mark is of same alignment as icon.
-Helbrute has 5 attacks CCW, can take a mark. You can choose from crazed table. IWND
-Legion tactics
-Forgefiends need to be cheaper, BS/WS 5, and skyfire.
-Chaplains give custom bubbles you can pay for like: +1 Init, +1 strength, +1 toughness, BS+1, etc.
-Warpsmith need to be within 12" to restore a hull point. Allow you to take additional walkers/vehicles.
-Fabius Bile allows you to field additional chaos spawn. can create chaos spawn out of wounded enemies (must get last wound)
-DP cheaper

- Sounds logic.
- I’m thinking about adding more daemons to the homebrew.
- Probably logical since that thing is both huge and strong.
- If I would add them.
- Since the rest of the units get the USR too he’ll join them. The points costs will be in the end of the brewing.
- I thought about creating a USR where you roll 3D6 instead of 2D6 and discard the highest result. But it’s an option too.
- I’ll probably use the classic Dreadnought and a Contemptor version. They also get God-specific weapons like the Twin-linked Blastmaster. But I'll still give the Hellbrute a second look.
- Maybe…
- BS4 and WS4 is good enough and Skyfire is very welcome indeed.
- You just created an OP character yourself . I like it, being far more effective than the loyalist version. Good replacement for sorcerers since Khrone’s units doesn’t like magic.
- Sounds more sorcerous to me. Should we make him a psyker with a Chaos form of technomancy as his main power? I still keep your suggestion in mind.
- Named characters won’t be done right now. I must ensure that basic units and normal characters are good.
- Alright. I want the DP to be the bread and butter version of the greater HQ’s. Also when taking a Greater Daemon you can make the DP’s with the dedicated mark Heavy support and they gain access to certain heavy weapons. Havocs on steroids.

Thanks for the suggestions. More are still welcome.

I'm planning to add Master of Sorcery and giving cult units exclusive USR to make them different from the rest. Noise Marines receive Rending and Khrone Berzerkers will get an USR where they can run and charge in the same turn. And yes, Dread Claws and flying transport coming soon.

pm713 wrote:
You don't think army wide fearless is a bit much? The only other thing with something like that is Deathwing and they cost 40+ for each model.

I agree, and besides, outright 'Fearless' also flies in the face of the established background...

Chaos Marines on the whole are not insane fanatics - they're self-serving, power hungry individuals who will put their own safty & wellbeing ahead of anyone else's. Being able to fall back and/or even outright run away entirely is a great distinction to keep between Chaos vs. Loyalist Marines.
A Loyalist will stand and die for his battle-brothers because he's been brainwashed & indoctrinated to do so. Doesn't matter the situation, he will stand and die needlessly because he doesn't know any better.
A Chaos Marine on the other hand will gladly leave another to die in his stead and save his own wretched hide when given the chance! How otherwise is a Chaos Marine going to walk the path to daemonhood if he senselessly dies for pride or in a vainglorious last stand?!


A better and much more appropriate idea would be to give CSM's army-wide Stubborn and/or the ability to always choose to attempt a regroup test (even when below the auto-fail threshold).

It keeps the idea that CSM's are braver than a Guardsman, but they're not outright stupid in their bravery like Loyalists are.

Army wide stubborn seems a decent replacement for ATSKNF to me.

Limeblossom wrote:I believe that the once feared CSM deserve a codex that is both extensive and competitive like the 3.5 edition. Right now they're walking behind thanks to all the updates and expanded supplements the loyalists gained in recent years. I even stopped playing CSM. Now on DakkDakka I want to brew a fan codex that makes Chaos Marines interesting again. To be the threat for the Imperium it always was.

Right now I'm starting with the troops, cult units, Terminators, Raptors and wargear and artifacts. If you have suggestions or other stuff to add, just post it please.

Some thing it will have:
- The whole army has the Fearless USR
- No Possessed CSM, units get the option to gain the Daemon rule and other benefits.
- Terminator Cult units available. Costs and rules will be changed
- Instead of taking an Aspiring Champion/Sorcerer as the unit leader you can take one of the IC HQ characters as the leader of the unit
- Daemon Prince has Eternal Warrior back
- Units with a specific mark can take items dedicated to their chosen Chaos god
- No formations.
- Daemon units added
- Chaos Caplain

I'll keep it up to date.

1) Disagree with complete Fearless. It's things like that which make Fear completely useless as a USR. Stubborn or ATSKNF instead?

2) I think Possessed should be kept, but just need a buff to be like Wulfen.

3) Yes. Should happen.

4) If you want an IC attached to the squad, you attach them via IC rules. No need for this rule.

5) This is fine.

6) If the weapons are suitably costed, absolutely fine. I'd go more along the lines of making it more orientated around the squad Champion, such as lesser relic weaponry.

7) Formations are a thing in all armies now, save for SoB (to my knowledge). They're staying.

8) Daemons can be taken - it's called Allies. No need to integrate them into the codex when you can ally or summon them in.

9) If you mean to say Chaplain, you already have one - the Dark Apostle. If you meant Captain, you have one in the form of the Chaos Lord.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:
Fearless is actually worse than ATSKNF because you cant choose to fall back from being caught in a bad combat situation. AFAIK anyway.

ATSKNF can't choose to fall out of combat either

I thought you could fall back due to "our weapons are useless" with atsknf but could not with fearless? At least that's how I read it in the BRB.

 Dayknight wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:
Fearless is actually worse than ATSKNF because you cant choose to fall back from being caught in a bad combat situation. AFAIK anyway.

ATSKNF can't choose to fall out of combat either

I thought you could fall back due to "our weapons are useless" with atsknf but could not with fearless? At least that's how I read it in the BRB.

You can but that's an incredibly rare situation.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Limeblossom wrote:I believe that the once feared CSM deserve a codex that is both extensive and competitive like the 3.5 edition. Right now they're walking behind thanks to all the updates and expanded supplements the loyalists gained in recent years. I even stopped playing CSM. Now on DakkDakka I want to brew a fan codex that makes Chaos Marines interesting again. To be the threat for the Imperium it always was.

Right now I'm starting with the troops, cult units, Terminators, Raptors and wargear and artifacts. If you have suggestions or other stuff to add, just post it please.

Some thing it will have:
- The whole army has the Fearless USR
- No Possessed CSM, units get the option to gain the Daemon rule and other benefits.
- Terminator Cult units available. Costs and rules will be changed
- Instead of taking an Aspiring Champion/Sorcerer as the unit leader you can take one of the IC HQ characters as the leader of the unit
- Daemon Prince has Eternal Warrior back
- Units with a specific mark can take items dedicated to their chosen Chaos god
- No formations.
- Daemon units added
- Chaos Caplain

I'll keep it up to date.

1) Disagree with complete Fearless. It's things like that which make Fear completely useless as a USR. Stubborn or ATSKNF instead?

2) I think Possessed should be kept, but just need a buff to be like Wulfen.

3) Yes. Should happen.

4) If you want an IC attached to the squad, you attach them via IC rules. No need for this rule.

5) This is fine.

6) If the weapons are suitably costed, absolutely fine. I'd go more along the lines of making it more orientated around the squad Champion, such as lesser relic weaponry.

7) Formations are a thing in all armies now, save for SoB (to my knowledge). They're staying.

8) Daemons can be taken - it's called Allies. No need to integrate them into the codex when you can ally or summon them in.

9) If you mean to say Chaplain, you already have one - the Dark Apostle. If you meant Captain, you have one in the form of the Chaos Lord.

1. ATSKNF stays exclusive for loyalists. I could give stubborn a chance.
2. You guys really want to keep possessed, right? Good then, but I'll change their profiles.
3. with all pleasure .
4. I'll take a look in it. It sucks to have a mandatorily character that could be easily replaced with a better character.
5. .
6. First the stats and playtesting, then the costs. I don't want to let the troops under-perform to the squad Champioin/character.
7. That GW does it is no excuse that we should do it too.
8. I see no problem in it. My daemons will be a bit more stable that those from the official codex.
9. Chaplain. Gonna fix it.

The Marks o Chaos will be like the old ones:
Khorne: +1A
Nurgle: +1T
Slaanesh: +1I
Tzeentch: 5+ invulnerable save or improving by 1.

Added a poll for the CSM amry wide rule.

pm713 wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:
Fearless is actually worse than ATSKNF because you cant choose to fall back from being caught in a bad combat situation. AFAIK anyway.

ATSKNF can't choose to fall out of combat either

I thought you could fall back due to "our weapons are useless" with atsknf but could not with fearless? At least that's how I read it in the BRB.

You can but that's an incredibly rare situation.

You'd be suprised how many times I've gotten in cqc with a walker where that would of been awesome. Also you can fail a morale check and fall back without worrying about getting sweeping advanced. You would just get sucked back in to cqc. That is all better than fearless when you have a gun. Point stands. Fearless is better for tarpitting but I still think atsknf is better tactically.

 Dayknight wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:
Fearless is actually worse than ATSKNF because you cant choose to fall back from being caught in a bad combat situation. AFAIK anyway.

ATSKNF can't choose to fall out of combat either

I thought you could fall back due to "our weapons are useless" with atsknf but could not with fearless? At least that's how I read it in the BRB.

You can but that's an incredibly rare situation.

You'd be suprised how many times I've gotten in cqc with a walker where that would of been awesome. Also you can fail a morale check and fall back without worrying about getting sweeping advanced. You would just get sucked back in to cqc. That is all better than fearless when you have a gun. Point stands. Fearless is better for tarpitting but I still think atsknf is better tactically.

What kind of walkers are you fighting with marines?

Honestly, I think that Aspiring Champions should be the linchpin for a lot of the extra rules you and others are thinking of.

What I would like to see is the non-cult units to be organized like this:

Units start with Aspiring Champion, but stat-wise, he is the same as the rest of the Grunts for the "Tacticals", Raptors, and Havoks, and Cultists are led by the same. These guys can take Sergeant upgrades like the Tacticals, etc. These then can be upgraded to Chaos Champions.

Chaos Champions also are default leaders for Veteran units like Chosen and Terminators. They can also purchase certain gifts such as Fearless, ATSKNF, Warp Walkers (Deep Strike for the units, and do not scatter near Banners), and maybe a few Cult-focused upgrades like being a Psyker for Tzeentch.

pm713 wrote:

What kind of walkers are you fighting with marines?

Knights?

 Ashiraya wrote:

pm713 wrote:

What kind of walkers are you fighting with marines?

Knights?

Really I don't think falling back will help against the Knight.

I believe in your creativity in coming up with scenarios and battles that would merit falling back from all manner of monsters, walkers, wolves, tigers and bears. Why stay there and have the whole team slaughtered? Theyre still going to have a chance to fail a morale check if the squad takes five wounds. Marines could be better used holding up objectives or killing something it can actually kill while my anti-tank handles it.

Charistoph wrote:Honestly, I think that Aspiring Champions should be the linchpin for a lot of the extra rules you and others are thinking of.

What I would like to see is the non-cult units to be organized like this:

Units start with Aspiring Champion, but stat-wise, he is the same as the rest of the Grunts for the "Tacticals", Raptors, and Havoks, and Cultists are led by the same. These guys can take Sergeant upgrades like the Tacticals, etc. These then can be upgraded to Chaos Champions.

Chaos Champions also are default leaders for Veteran units like Chosen and Terminators. They can also purchase certain gifts such as Fearless, ATSKNF, Warp Walkers (Deep Strike for the units, and do not scatter near Banners), and maybe a few Cult-focused upgrades like being a Psyker for Tzeentch.

Let me think about it.
Warp Walkers has the potential, and cult-focused upgrades will be a thing .

Experiment 626 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
You don't think army wide fearless is a bit much? The only other thing with something like that is Deathwing and they cost 40+ for each model.

I agree, and besides, outright 'Fearless' also flies in the face of the established background...

Chaos Marines on the whole are not insane fanatics - they're self-serving, power hungry individuals who will put their own safty & wellbeing ahead of anyone else's. Being able to fall back and/or even outright run away entirely is a great distinction to keep between Chaos vs. Loyalist Marines.
A Loyalist will stand and die for his battle-brothers because he's been brainwashed & indoctrinated to do so. Doesn't matter the situation, he will stand and die needlessly because he doesn't know any better.
A Chaos Marine on the other hand will gladly leave another to die in his stead and save his own wretched hide when given the chance! How otherwise is a Chaos Marine going to walk the path to daemonhood if he senselessly dies for pride or in a vainglorious last stand?!


A better and much more appropriate idea would be to give CSM's army-wide Stubborn and/or the ability to always choose to attempt a regroup test (even when below the auto-fail threshold).

It keeps the idea that CSM's are braver than a Guardsman, but they're not outright stupid in their bravery like Loyalists are.

I'm always used to know CSM as out-of-control psychopaths. Your explanation gives more ideas of how to expand the homebrew. Plus I think your suggestion of having Stubborn with regroup option will be quite useful. I take it.

Now I'm looking for some weapons, wargear and other stuff you can brainstorm. One of my goals is to make cult-units effective in both shooting and combat. Alright, Khornate units will still be combat orientated, but there's always place for flamers . After browsing through the forums I found #1ShieldBrother3++'s suggestion for Iron Warriors to have a -1 Strength shooting attacks by enemy units. Seems like a neat upgrade for Undivided or Nurgle.

I'm also looking what I shall do with the sound weapons. Should I give them Salvo, Rapid Fire, Assault or Assault/Heavy x the amount of Attacks on the unit's profile?
I'll probably add Khorne weapons like these and give them almost the same profile as a Power Axe but with +2/3 Strength, Master-Crafted and Specialist Weapon.
Master of Sorcery will come back (just as planned).

Are the noise marine guns not already Salvo? I know one is at least.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Are the noise marine guns not already Salvo? I know one is at least.

That's right. Only the Sonic Blaster. I'm thinking about buffing the Blastmaster since I want it to be useful for Dreadnoughts, Vehicles etc.

A buff to the blast master would be a welcome sight. Such cool models and fluff, and then you can't even fire the 50 point gun...

I agree, the Sonic dread needs a better blaster/any other vehicles you make because it's pretty bad for a high point 1 shot vehicle weapon. Maybe large blast str 9 ap 3 for lower frequency and str 10 ap 2 small blast for focused frequency?

The issue with the Blastmaster is the junk Blast rules on top of the cost.

Make it 20 points and fix Blasts so that they don't have to center over a model, and we're good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue with the Blastmaster is the junk Blast rules on top of the cost.

Make it 20 points and fix Blasts so that they don't have to center over a model, and we're good.

Would it be better if you just had to make sure the center was over part of a base?

On the Champions note, one thing you could do is another effect from marking characters/ICs. Like Khorne characters get PE in challenges, Slaanesh characters get Precision Shot/Strike.

#1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:A buff to the blast master would be a welcome sight. Such cool models and fluff, and then you can't even fire the 50 point gun...

I agree, the Sonic dread needs a better blaster/any other vehicles you make because it's pretty bad for a high point 1 shot vehicle weapon. Maybe large blast str 9 ap 3 for lower frequency and str 10 ap 2 small blast for focused frequency?

Agree. Before you think I'm rejecting your suggestion, I want to keep the large blast form as a heavy weapon choice for Daemon Princes. I'll make sure that the sonic Weaponry will be effective, but that also goes for other weapons. My idea is to give the lower frequency a stat like an Chaotic Assault Cannon with ignores cover and possibly Haywire, because Sonic weaponry could be good in disturbing the Machine Spirit .

Lukash_ wrote:On the Champions note, one thing you could do is another effect from marking characters/ICs. Like Khorne characters get PE in challenges, Slaanesh characters get Precision Shot/Strike.

Sounds neat.

I think about changing Fleshmetal in a 2+ armour with Eternal Warrior against double strength attacks.

 War Kitten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue with the Blastmaster is the junk Blast rules on top of the cost.

Make it 20 points and fix Blasts so that they don't have to center over a model, and we're good.

Would it be better if you just had to make sure the center was over part of a base?

It would help, but not by much. Blasts in general need that buff, and suddenly Frag Missiles and Plasma Cannons aren't such garbage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The issue with the Blastmaster is the junk Blast rules on top of the cost.

Make it 20 points and fix Blasts so that they don't have to center over a model, and we're good.

Would it be better if you just had to make sure the center was over part of a base?

It would help, but not by much. Blasts in general need that buff, and suddenly Frag Missiles and Plasma Cannons aren't such garbage.

There´s always Twin-Linked .

About Possessed, I shall give them a chance by giing them an extra Strength, Wound and Attack, giving them special rules like FNP and Crazed and allowing them to take certain weapons like Daemonic Lightning Claws and Jump Packs (buffed Warp Talons). Do you guys like it?

Jump packs and demonic lightning claws would be stepping on the toes of Warp Talons too much. If you want mobility, consider a rule like Beast or a new one called "Warp Speed" or something that lets them move 12" because they're all daemon supercharged.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Jump packs and demonic lightning claws would be stepping on the toes of Warp Talons too much.

I'm not planning to add Warp Talons to the homebrew. The Possessed shall function as a good replacement for them.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
If you want mobility, consider a rule like Beast or a new one called "Warp Speed" or something that lets them move 12" because they're all daemon supercharged.

It will be either Beast or Monstrous Infantry, if that's still a thing in 40K.

Beast is but I haven't heard of Monstrous Infantry.