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On the subject of noise marines, the issue I have with them is that they end up paying points for things that pull in opposite directions and prevent them from benefitting from all their goodies.
The doom siren, assault profile for the blast master, and mark of slaanesh make me want to move them up and assault things, but the salvo rule on sonic blasters and the heavy profile on the blast master make me want to sit still to get the most out of my firepower.
Normally I'd argue that this just means you have to choose how you want to use them, but then you're either wasting points or making their main special weapon a non-option. You're theoretically paying points for the built-in slaanesh mark, and the mark is really only useful for assault purposes. But if you build the squad around a doom siren and maybe an assault profile blast master, they you basically end up spending points on a cool-but-sub-optimal assault unit. If you focus on building them as a ranged support unit, then you're spending points on a mark of slaanesh that you essentially aren't using while also denying yourself the chance to look cool with a doom siren. If you spend points to give them the option to do both, you're probably spending points on an option that they won't actually take advantage of during the game.
The obvious solution here is to make sonic blasters Assault 2/Heavy 3 instead of salvo.
I think the small blast profile on the blast master is actually pretty alright. It's a decent way to take down things like venomthropes, bikes (you won't hit many at once, but you'll probably hit at least one or two with that large base), or those annoying dark angel speeders that grant shrouded. I think of it less as a unit-clearing gun and more of a versatile trouble shooter. An option to combine the shots of multiple blast noise marine units to make a larger blast based on the number of contributing units would be cool though. Maybe consider that as a formation rule?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/18 03:25:36
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
pm713 wrote: Beast is but I haven't heard of Monstrous Infantry.
There is no 40K unit type of Monstrous Infantry, but in Fantasy Battles they are large multi-Wound Infantry, things like Ogres and Minotaurs. They usually have 40mm bases, 3 Wounds, 3 Attacks, and slow Cavalry movement base. They can Rank up and with 8th Edition, all the second Rank Attacks passed through instead of just the one that Infantry used. The closest equivalents in 40K are Tyranid Warriors, Obliterators, and Codex Marine Centurions.
Possessed models are a bit too small to be Monstrous Infantry, though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/18 04:24:45
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Wyldhunt wrote:On the subject of noise marines, the issue I have with them is that they end up paying points for things that pull in opposite directions and prevent them from benefitting from all their goodies.
The doom siren, assault profile for the blast master, and mark of slaanesh make me want to move them up and assault things, but the salvo rule on sonic blasters and the heavy profile on the blast master make me want to sit still to get the most out of my firepower.
Normally I'd argue that this just means you have to choose how you want to use them, but then you're either wasting points or making their main special weapon a non-option. You're theoretically paying points for the built-in slaanesh mark, and the mark is really only useful for assault purposes. But if you build the squad around a doom siren and maybe an assault profile blast master, they you basically end up spending points on a cool-but-sub-optimal assault unit. If you focus on building them as a ranged support unit, then you're spending points on a mark of slaanesh that you essentially aren't using while also denying yourself the chance to look cool with a doom siren. If you spend points to give them the option to do both, you're probably spending points on an option that they won't actually take advantage of during the game.
The obvious solution here is to make sonic blasters Assault 2/Heavy 3 instead of salvo.
I think the small blast profile on the blast master is actually pretty alright. It's a decent way to take down things like venomthropes, bikes (you won't hit many at once, but you'll probably hit at least one or two with that large base), or those annoying dark angel speeders that grant shrouded. I think of it less as a unit-clearing gun and more of a versatile trouble shooter. An option to combine the shots of multiple blast noise marine units to make a larger blast based on the number of contributing units would be cool though. Maybe consider that as a formation rule?
That's why it's important to consider some changes to the Sound Weapons. They have some benefits with the Rending rule I added to the Noise Marines.
Your combine blast option sounds interesting, but don't expect it as an formation rule. I'll just make the codex with the units, weapons, gear and probably some legion tactics.
Charistoph wrote:
pm713 wrote: Beast is but I haven't heard of Monstrous Infantry.
There is no 40K unit type of Monstrous Infantry, but in Fantasy Battles they are large multi-Wound Infantry, things like Ogres and Minotaurs. They usually have 40mm bases, 3 Wounds, 3 Attacks, and slow Cavalry movement base. They can Rank up and with 8th Edition, all the second Rank Attacks passed through instead of just the one that Infantry used. The closest equivalents in 40K are Tyranid Warriors, Obliterators, and Codex Marine Centurions.
Possessed models are a bit too small to be Monstrous Infantry, though.
Then I think we take either Beasts or Infantry with some tweaks.
Now that I thought about Jump Pack wearing, maybe I should give them the option to take bikes .
Created a new poll for Sound weapons.
2016/07/20 13:44:27
Subject: Re:CSM Homebrew (suggestions are welcome)
Here are my homebrew rules for Thousand Sons. Most of this is based entirely on their old school 3.5ed rules, with the old Fantasy Lore of Tzeentch being adapted to 40k;
Rubric Marine: WS4/BS4/S4/T4/I2/W2/A1/Ld8
Acolyte Sorcerer: WS4/BS5/S4/T4/I4/W1/A2/Ld9
- Fearless
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Aura of Dark Glory
- Inferno Bolts
- The Sorcerer Commands
- Immortal Sentinels
- Veterans of the Long War
Mark of Tzeentch; Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have the Hatred: Mark/Daemon of Nurgle & Adamantium Will special rules, and may re-roll invulnerable saving throws of a 1. Psykers may also re-roll failed Perils of the Warp tests.
Inferno Bolts; S5/ap3, Gift of Mutation.
- any model which suffers an unsaved wound from an Inferno Bolt must immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, then the model immediately suffers an additional wound with no saves of any kind allowed. If a Character or Monstrous Creature loses its last wound because of this rule, roll a D6 - on a 2+ a Chaos Spawn is created and placed within 3" of the original model.
If the controlling player does not have a suitable Chaos Spawn model, or the newly created model can't be placed more than 1" from any other models, then no Chaos Spawn is created.
The Sorcerer Commands; While the unit's Aspiring Sorcerer is alive, he can re-roll failed 'Look Out Sir!' tests and the entire unit is Relentless, however the unit is always counted as making a 'Disordered Charge' when they declare any charges in the Assault phase.
If there is no Acolyte Sorcerer controlling the unit, then the unit gains the Slow and Purposeful rule instead, and must pass a Ld test in order to preform any actions, though the unit will fight as normal if it is engaged in any assaults.
Immortal Sentinels; When making an Overwatch reaction, the unit counts as firing at BS2.
Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris - Flickering Fire of Tzeentch (as codex: Daemons)
1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1/Malediction - 24".
Until the start of the caster's next Psychic phase, the target unit must use the lowest Ld value (instead of the highest as would normally be the case) for any leadership based tests they make.
Spoiler:
While some may scoff at this power as Leadership is less 'useful' as it was in Fantasy, there are still a decent number of Ld based skills (IG Orders, PotW, etc... for example), and this spell will seriously neuter those things!
Plus, the amount of obvious synergy this spell has with Slaanesh magic & some of the new Daemon rules (ie: The Doomsday Bell) in general means that you can still build entire strategies around just this spell.
2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1/Witchfire - SD6+1/ap4, Template, Torrent
Spoiler:
I know some might argue for ap3 or even ap2, but it's a WC1 power, and it can potentially hit at S7. If people really insist on ap3, then you'd have to bump it up to WC2 just to keep it even remotely balanced.
3. Bolt of Change (as codex: Daemons)
4. Glean Magic WC2/Witchfire - 18"/special
Can only be used to target a model with the Psyker/Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. If successfully cast, both the caster & their target roll a D6 and add their Mastery Level to the roll. If the caster scores higher, the target suffers an automatic S3/ap2 Ignores Cover hit with the Warpflame rule, and immediately forgets one randomly chosen psychic power.
If the caster does not already know this spell, then he immediately gains it and cast it just like any of his other powers. Once the caster attempts to cast his stolen spell, it is destroyed and is immediately discarded.
Spoiler:
Absolutely my all time favourite spell in Fantasy! And considering how common psykers in general are nowadays, the only times you'd really not want this power would be against Necrons, Tau & Orks. This would be a huge boon vs. those annoying Libby Conclaves to boot, as you can single out the most annoying member & potentially steal that one power which your opponent (foolishly!) based their entire army around! (looking at you Invis!!)
Plus, it's hugely unique as it gives Tzeentch an outright anti-psyker ability.
6. Infernal Gateway WC2/Witchfire - 18"/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1, Blast, Ignores Cover
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining the power's strength, use the Large Blast marker instead.
*Note: All powers have the Warpflame special rule (as codex: Daemons)
Spoiler:
I know a lot of people hate Warpflame, but it's a fun rule, and fits well with Tzeentch's convoluted nature. Besides, within a CSM army, it's even less of an issue since you have an actual Shooting phase to counter any potential FnP 'gifting' to your opponent.
Now Thousand Sons have a dedicated role to play within the army, being the ultimate anvil/objective securing unit AND having a niche of being the anti-multi wound unit.
W2/5++ re-rolling 1's vs. T5/FnP is different enough from Plaguemarines that they're not just carbon copies of each other. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons will lend themselves entirely to a supportive 'take and hold' style role, while Plaguemarines are much more tactically flexible in what they can do, but are still weaker vs. multi-wound targets.
Tzeentch magic is now blasty as hell, but random in just how devastating it will be. There's also a couple of very unique hexes in there, which while powerful, are not outright game-breaking on their own.
2016/07/21 22:09:16
Subject: Re:CSM Homebrew (suggestions are welcome)
Experiment 626 wrote: Here are my homebrew rules for Thousand Sons. Most of this is based entirely on their old school 3.5ed rules, with the old Fantasy Lore of Tzeentch being adapted to 40k;
Rubric Marine: WS4/BS4/S4/T4/I2/W2/A1/Ld8
Acolyte Sorcerer: WS4/BS5/S4/T4/I4/W1/A2/Ld9
- Fearless
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Aura of Dark Glory
- Inferno Bolts
- The Sorcerer Commands
- Immortal Sentinels
- Veterans of the Long War
Mark of Tzeentch; Models with the Mark of Tzeentch have the Hatred: Mark/Daemon of Nurgle & Adamantium Will special rules, and may re-roll invulnerable saving throws of a 1. Psykers may also re-roll failed Perils of the Warp tests.
Inferno Bolts; S5/ap3, Gift of Mutation.
- any model which suffers an unsaved wound from an Inferno Bolt must immediately take a Toughness test. If the test is failed, then the model immediately suffers an additional wound with no saves of any kind allowed. If a Character or Monstrous Creature loses its last wound because of this rule, roll a D6 - on a 2+ a Chaos Spawn is created and placed within 3" of the original model.
If the controlling player does not have a suitable Chaos Spawn model, or the newly created model can't be placed more than 1" from any other models, then no Chaos Spawn is created.
The Sorcerer Commands; While the unit's Aspiring Sorcerer is alive, he can re-roll failed 'Look Out Sir!' tests and the entire unit is Relentless, however the unit is always counted as making a 'Disordered Charge' when they declare any charges in the Assault phase.
If there is no Acolyte Sorcerer controlling the unit, then the unit gains the Slow and Purposeful rule instead, and must pass a Ld test in order to preform any actions, though the unit will fight as normal if it is engaged in any assaults.
Immortal Sentinels; When making an Overwatch reaction, the unit counts as firing at BS2.
Lore of Tzeentch:
Primaris - Flickering Fire of Tzeentch (as codex: Daemons)
1. Treason of Tzeentch WC1/Malediction - 24".
Until the start of the caster's next Psychic phase, the target unit must use the lowest Ld value (instead of the highest as would normally be the case) for any leadership based tests they make.
Spoiler:
While some may scoff at this power as Leadership is less 'useful' as it was in Fantasy, there are still a decent number of Ld based skills (IG Orders, PotW, etc... for example), and this spell will seriously neuter those things!
Plus, the amount of obvious synergy this spell has with Slaanesh magic & some of the new Daemon rules (ie: The Doomsday Bell) in general means that you can still build entire strategies around just this spell.
2. Pink Fire of Tzeentch WC1/Witchfire - SD6+1/ap4, Template, Torrent
Spoiler:
I know some might argue for ap3 or even ap2, but it's a WC1 power, and it can potentially hit at S7. If people really insist on ap3, then you'd have to bump it up to WC2 just to keep it even remotely balanced.
3. Bolt of Change (as codex: Daemons)
4. Glean Magic WC2/Witchfire - 18"/special
Can only be used to target a model with the Psyker/Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. If successfully cast, both the caster & their target roll a D6 and add their Mastery Level to the roll. If the caster scores higher, the target suffers an automatic S3/ap2 Ignores Cover hit with the Warpflame rule, and immediately forgets one randomly chosen psychic power.
If the caster does not already know this spell, then he immediately gains it and cast it just like any of his other powers. Once the caster attempts to cast his stolen spell, it is destroyed and is immediately discarded.
Spoiler:
Absolutely my all time favourite spell in Fantasy! And considering how common psykers in general are nowadays, the only times you'd really not want this power would be against Necrons, Tau & Orks. This would be a huge boon vs. those annoying Libby Conclaves to boot, as you can single out the most annoying member & potentially steal that one power which your opponent (foolishly!) based their entire army around! (looking at you Invis!!)
Plus, it's hugely unique as it gives Tzeentch an outright anti-psyker ability.
6. Infernal Gateway WC2/Witchfire - 18"/S2D6*/ap2/Assault 1, Blast, Ignores Cover
If an 11 or 12 is rolled when determining the power's strength, use the Large Blast marker instead.
*Note: All powers have the Warpflame special rule (as codex: Daemons)
Spoiler:
I know a lot of people hate Warpflame, but it's a fun rule, and fits well with Tzeentch's convoluted nature. Besides, within a CSM army, it's even less of an issue since you have an actual Shooting phase to counter any potential FnP 'gifting' to your opponent.
Now Thousand Sons have a dedicated role to play within the army, being the ultimate anvil/objective securing unit AND having a niche of being the anti-multi wound unit.
W2/5++ re-rolling 1's vs. T5/FnP is different enough from Plaguemarines that they're not just carbon copies of each other. Meanwhile, Thousand Sons will lend themselves entirely to a supportive 'take and hold' style role, while Plaguemarines are much more tactically flexible in what they can do, but are still weaker vs. multi-wound targets.
Tzeentch magic is now blasty as hell, but random in just how devastating it will be. There's also a couple of very unique hexes in there, which while powerful, are not outright game-breaking on their own.
This feels like a pretty strong starting point. A few thoughts:
*Rename the "gift of mutation" rule on your inferno bolts to avoid confusion with other rules of the same name.
* There's a lot of random rolling here. Some people are probably big fans of that. Personally, I'm not as it slows down the game and doesn't particularly represent 10,000 old sorcerous power to me. Surely Ahriman and pals have been using their favorite spells long enough to pull them off without wildly varying results by now, right? This is largely personal preference.
* If the gift of mutation on the inferno bolts is meant to make them an "anti-multi-wound unit," I'm not sure it really accomplishes this. If we're talking about MCs, they'll probably pass a toughness test and have a good chance of still not dying. If we're talking about thunderwolves and their ilk, they'll probably pass the toughness test. If we're talking about anything with only 2 wounds (including T-cav), then at most you're only doing a single extra wound out of it (though you *are* getting an extra chaos spawn). So at most, you're only taking a single extra wound off a model (because you'll generally end up killing all the other multi-wound models outright, ignoring Look Out Sir shenanigans). I don't feel this is particularly helpful against multi-wounders, and I feel mildly uneasy about granting free chaos spawn with a shooting attack (though playtesting may show that that's fine).
* Immortal Sentinels feels a little odd They're obviously not going to panic in the face of an incoming charge, but they aren't going to be particularly motivated to shoot either. No more so than, say, a necron. This bonus isn't broken, but it doesn't really seem to fit them either. Personally, I'd probably prefer to shave off whatever points cost you consider this to be worth and simply have a slightly lower points price tag.
* I really don't care for Treason of Tzeentch. I know there are specific situations you could tailor a list around similar to a dark eldar/harlequin/eldar freakshow list, but it feels pretty niche. Against anything Fearless or against marines or against necrons with their uniform leadership, this will have very little benefit beyond making psychic shriek better. I'd usually be annoyed if I rolled this as one of my powers. Consider replacing with something more generally useful. Even a flat -2 to Leadership would be more helpful against more targets.
* On the subject of psychic powers, any thoughts on a way to give aspiring sorcerers access to main book powers? They're supposed to be ancient sorcerers that originally had strong inclinations towards a specific type of psychic power. Making them be almost exclusively about fire balls feels a bit limiting. Something to break the restriction about needing to roll at least one power on the Tzeentch table might do it.
* I feel like pink fire is in a good place. Being a torrent is very helpful, but having an average strength of 4 or 5 with ap 4 keeps it from being amazing. It will melt fire warriors, eldar, and scouts, but that's okay.
* I dislike this one for some of the same reasons I dislike Treason of Tzeentch. If I roll this when I"m facing tau, I basically don't have this power. Making them forget a power can be weirdly book-keepy if they aren't using cards to keep track. It's a fun idea, but I feel it has some solvable problems. Maybe convert this into a piece of wargear instead? Pay X points to basically do this effect once per game in place of shooting? Currently, it's a random power that doesn't work at all against tau, dark eldar, necrons, mechanicus, or any other army that doesn't happen to have a psyker present in its list. And it costs WC2 on top of all that. If you're really opposed to removing or changing it, I strongly recommend adding a line that says, "Reroll this power if your opponent's army contains no psykers."
*Firestorm: Not a fan of all the random rolls you have to do to resolve it, but it seems fine. Considering its limited range and average strength of 4, I think this one would be fine as WC1.
*Infernal Gateway seems fine, even though I'm still a cranky jerky who doesn't like random strength values.
*Warpflame in general: Obviously, I'm not a big fan of random, and warpflame falls squarely into this category. Tzeentch may be all about change, but it still seems silly to me that he would actively power up enemies acting against his plans.
"How could you let those astartes defeat you?!"
"We were doing great until *you* decided to give them all Wolverine's healing factor, Mr. Tzeentch, sir."
"Silence! It was uh... all part of my plan! So uh, I guess I"m not mad because you losing was intentional. The whole time. CHAOS IS FICKLE!"
... So uh. Yeah. Not a fan of having warp flame all over these powers for that reason.
Overall, I think this is a decent starting point.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2016/07/24 18:44:39
Subject: Re:CSM Homebrew (suggestions are welcome)
Experiment 626, I'm happy to see some stuff I can use for the homebrew, thanks for that. But I also agree with Wyldhunt that we should cut the random stuff.
Now that 3 gods have their stuff, maybe it's time to give Nurgle and Undivided theirs (and some others the other gods).
Daemons weapons will be used of course.
And we still have to create some godspecific wargear and making sure that Tzeentch's stuff is good since we need a reason to give markless units Tzeentch's powers.
Thousand Sons have access to other Special/Heavy weapons, just like other Cult Units.
Possessed will have a profile (sort) of WS4 / BS4 / S5 / T4 / I4 / W3 / A3 / Ld10 and rules like Daemon, Relentless, Fleet, Crazed, IWND, and etc., and yes, I'll still give them an option to take bikes and Jump packs (with a harder version of HoW).
Since sorcerer's don't get Psychic Hood, I'll give them either Adamantium Will as an solid rule for their profile or as an free option.
And Veteran Skills will be back too.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/07/25 22:47:11
2016/07/25 22:48:03
Subject: Re:CSM Homebrew (suggestions are welcome)
And of course Daemon Prince will be there with a profile like:
WS7 / BS5 / S6 / T5 / W4 / I5 / A5 / Ld10
Daemon
Eternal Warrior
Fearless / Fallen Legionary: Stubborn with automatic regroup test.
Can take power armour, Fleshmetal or other gear.
Still having the concept of becoming heavy support when taking a greater Daemon with the same mark.
Marked Chosen have access to God-specific weapons and gear. There will be enough option for Undivided too (didn't forget you Alpha Legion, Iron Wariors, etc.).
For those who play CSM longer, how where the marks back then? More than just one profile modification?
And yes, we need more Nurgle stuff .
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/07/26 11:47:08
I'll add one very specific unit - probably the most situational i.e. useless unit in the Codex. And.. one of my most beloved unit (and the most ugly model); the Mutilator.
I wouldn't even change much, just making their Unit size slightly bigger (1-5 instead of 1-3), remove the Slow & Purposeful because it's plain stupid on a CC unit and give
them something like those pesky eldar-banshee's have - no over watch against them.
It still would be a somewhat situational to useless unit - but not to this current magnitude.
Raptors and Warp Talons get a dirge caster style rule where enemy units they charge have to take a leadership test (at -1?), if it's failed they cannot fire overwatch.
Warp Talons gain a special rule called "The Scent of Prey" or something, which allows them to deepstrike without scattering if they land within 6" of a unit that fell back, was Pinned, or Went to Ground. (more of a fluff rule)
Change Warpflame Strike to enemy units within 12" can only snap shot at them the turn they deepstrike.
Just a few cents on these cool but kinda overcosted units.
EverlastingNewb wrote:I'll add one very specific unit - probably the most situational i.e. useless unit in the Codex. And.. one of my most beloved unit (and the most ugly model); the Mutilator.
I wouldn't even change much, just making their Unit size slightly bigger (1-5 instead of 1-3), remove the Slow & Purposeful because it's plain stupid on a CC unit and give
them something like those pesky eldar-banshee's have - no over watch against them.
It still would be a somewhat situational to useless unit - but not to this current magnitude.
Lukash_ wrote:Raptors and Warp Talons get a dirge caster style rule where enemy units they charge have to take a leadership test (at -1?), if it's failed they cannot fire overwatch.
Warp Talons gain a special rule called "The Scent of Prey" or something, which allows them to deepstrike without scattering if they land within 6" of a unit that fell back, was Pinned, or Went to Ground. (more of a fluff rule)
Change Warpflame Strike to enemy units within 12" can only snap shot at them the turn they deepstrike.
Just a few cents on these cool but kinda overcosted units.
Thank you for the created rules. But to be fair, I won't use Mutilators or Warp Talons (I have the models of mutilators). I'm just gonna expand the Raptors and Possessed to make them even more useful.
And yes, rules that will counter Overwatch would be great.
Do some of you have suggestions for Nurgle?
2016/08/08 19:34:16
Subject: Re:CSM Homebrew (suggestions are welcome)
Just read the Chaos 3.5 edition and makes all even more clear why veteran CSM players dislike the current edition. 3.5 gave you all the space to be innovative with your army.
And inspired me to add Daemonic talons to the homebrew with Rending and Armourbane . Don't worry, I won't forget the sound weapons for the vehicles.
While disallowing overwatch is a useful rule for any assault unit, I'm not sure why mutilators specifically would have it. They're big, slow, scary, and can change their melee loadout, but none of those things really scream "ignore overwatch" to me. Especially since other big and scary things don't ignore it. Perhaps there's an argument that a Slaaneshi mutilator could be upgraded to have a dirge caster as part of its body transforms into one? Removing slow & purposeful would really do wonders for them in and of itself, I feel.
I like the suggested rules for warp talons and raptors. These seem flavorful, useful, and reasonable to me.
One thing I might suggest about the warp talons is that they might deserve to have a rule that reduces their scatter in a fashion similar to drop pods. They're a melee unit cutting its way out of the warp. If they don't like where a hole in reality takes them (such as into the heart of a volcano), they could just choose not to come out of that hole and cut open a different one. If they land on top of enemy units, they should probably be happy to be that much closer to stabbing something. Combine this with their deepstrike blind rule, and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to simply reduce their scatter near impassible terrain or enemy units. It allows a much maligned unit to feel comfortable deepstriking near enough to an enemy to use its blind rule and to not worry about mishapping themselves into uselessness.
Regarding Undivided factions, I'd really like to see Legion-specific rules rather than generic ones. Alpha Legion is much sneakier than the Word Bearers are much more daemon/religion-friendly than Night Lords.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Lots of good stuff going on, but to represent the selfish nature of CSM and the type of raids/attacks where they can maximize damage output while minimizing their casualties, I always thought army-wide Hit and Run made a lot of sense.
Obviously not for Cultists, Terminators, Helbrutes, etc.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Lots of good stuff going on, but to represent the selfish nature of CSM and the type of raids/attacks where they can maximize damage output while minimizing their casualties, I always thought army-wide Hit and Run made a lot of sense.
Obviously not for Cultists, Terminators, Helbrutes, etc.
I've got to politely disagree with you there. That would be a perfectly reasonable rule for a specific faction of chaos marines to have, but I feel it would be odd for initiative 4 power armored guys to be quicker/nimbler/better at mitigating casualties than dark eldar or howling banshees or swooping hawks (when not lead by Baharroth). Craftworlders, after all, care at least as much about preserving their warriors' lives as renegade pirates.
Perhaps capture that idea inside of faction-specific rules? Night Lords, for instance, might have hit & run to fit their highly mobile and raptor-heavy fighting style, thus allowing them to sew confusion across larger swaths of the battlefield. Or a "renegade raiders" formation might grant you a single orbital strike and hit & run in the turn in which you use it, representing shock and awe style tactics.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Lots of good stuff going on, but to represent the selfish nature of CSM and the type of raids/attacks where they can maximize damage output while minimizing their casualties, I always thought army-wide Hit and Run made a lot of sense.
Obviously not for Cultists, Terminators, Helbrutes, etc.
There will be Hit & Run for the Raptors.
Wyldhunt wrote:
Perhaps capture that idea inside of faction-specific rules? Night Lords, for instance, might have hit & run to fit their highly mobile and raptor-heavy fighting style, thus allowing them to sew confusion across larger swaths of the battlefield. Or a "renegade raiders" formation might grant you a single orbital strike and hit & run in the turn in which you use it, representing shock and awe style tactics.
If the whole homebrew is done. Right now you have to do it with Veteran Skills, Daemonic Gifts and other options.
I want to focus on both god-specific armies, Daemonic, fallen legions and all of the customization options for your army. So please keep formations out of it until it's done.
Now I'm also homebrewing the Chaos Marks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/10 11:50:21
Teetengee wrote: I would avoid writing psychic powers that you want to base a strategy on that you can't actually depend on getting (i.e. not primaris)
Psychic powers comes later.
Damn, I was so busy with other things that I forgot to give the updates.
2016/09/05 10:51:53
Subject: Re:CSM Homebrew (suggestions are welcome)
all non-vehicle chaos space marine infantry amd bike units with the exception of cultists gain the following special rules...
Fear is for the weak: if the unit fails a morale, pinning, or fear test remove one non-character model from the unit. the unit counts as having passed. if there are no models left besides characters, the unit fails the check.
treachery and violence: this rule grants a bonus to all non-cultist, vehicle, or monstrous creature with daemonic possession units in your detachment (so, basically the marines themselves and hellbrutes receive the benefit)some bonuses listed below. You have three ranks worth of dark stratagems to use. These are chosen before warlord traits. Each stratagem will have the rank value listed next to the name. these will state what units benefit from the bonus. Units that meet all criteria gain all bonuses listed.
*Cult Following (1): infantry models that are not named characters may purchase up to 2 cultists for 5 points per model. these cultists are a part of the unit in every way and may purchase upgrades normally with the exception that if they choose a chaos mark it must be the same as the one chosen by their parent unit. while cultists are alive any wounds allocated by "look out sir!" and "fear is for the weak" will be put on a cultist. (even if the cultist isn't the closest model, though they still must be within 6" for "look out sir!")
*Ambush Artists(1): units gain outflank, any of these units with v.o.t.l.w. gain infiltrate instead.
*Hard Won Precision (1):reroll one failed to hit roll per phase for each unit, any units with v.o.t.l.w. may reroll two failed hits instead.
*Terrorize (2): morale tests caused by unmarked units are taken at a negative 2 penalty. unmarked units with veterans of the long war gain the rampage and fear USRs.
*Bloody Handed Butchers (2): units with the mark of khorne consolidate d6+3 inches. v.o.t.l.w. with the mark of khorne may consolidate to within 1" of enemy units. If they do so, they count as being engaged as normal. The enemy unit may fire overwatch if they would normally be allowed to do so.
*Blessed Disciples (2): any unit with a mark of chaos may reroll any results they wish on the chaos boon table. v.o.t.l.w. units with any chaos mark may reroll all failed to hit rolls in their shooting and assault phase on any even numbered turn.
*Orchestrated Destruction (2): units with the mark of slaanesh may run after firing their weapons in the shooting phase. v.o.t.l.w. units with the mark of slaanesh may charge a unit even if they fired at a different unit in the shooting phase.
*Iron Defense (2) unmarked units gain shred when firing emplaced weapons or weapon emplacements. Unmarked units with v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all saves versus ranged attacks when embarked within or on fortifications taken as part of their detachment..
*Mastery of Misdirection (2): enemy units wishing to fire at unmarked units must do so at a -1 penalty to hit. enemy units firing at unmarked units with v.o.t.l.w. must reroll all “6” to hit.
*Blessed Fecundity (3): all bolter weapons wielded by units with the mark of nurgle gain poison (5+). units with the mark of nurgle and v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all feel no pain saves and may take feel no pain saves against weapons that cause instant death.
*Glory Unto Chaos (2): any marked chaos unit will allow daemons of the same alignment to charge after deep strike so long as they arrived within 6" of the unit. Any marked chaos unit with v.o.t.l.w. may reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls so long as their target is within 6" of them and a chaos daemon unit with the same daemonic alignment.
*Sorcerous Masters (2): all characters with the mark of tzeentch may purchase one mastery level more than they would normally be allowed for 25 points. this includes units which would not normally do so. units with the mark of tzeentch and v.o.t.l.w. may harness warp charges on a 3+
if a unit has the mark of slaanesh it may add sonic blasters to their ranged weapons and blastmasters to their heavy weapons/hellbrute weapon options for the points listed under the noise marines unit profile.
if a unit with the daemon keyword takes a mark of the chaos gods, they may also gain the daemon of chaos bonus listed with the daemon prince for that god for free. if they choose to do so, they replace fearless for daemonic instability (see codex: chaos daemons).
veterans of the long war change "space marines" to "armies of the imperium"
Aspiring champions and Aspiring Sorcerers can take terminator armor for 15 points.
When a character from the army issues or accepts a challenge, roll on the Chaos Boon Table immediately (instead of afterward). If the character is fighting in a challenge with a unique character, add +1 to the tens dice for determining the Boon (max of 6).
Marked chaos sorcerers must select at least half of their psychic powers from their god's specific table or either daemonology school rounded DOWN. If they choose to use their god's discipline, they gain a +1 to their dice roll to manifest (meaning they usually succeed on a 3+)
Chaos marines may purchase one special weapon per 5 models
Rhinos may take assault ramps as an upgrade for 10 points. This makes them assault vehicles
Abaddon is a Lord of War.
mark of nurgle gives +1 feel no pain (or 6+ feel no pain if the unit does not already have it) to a maximum of 4+ (this replaces the normal benefit)
Rhinos may be selected as a fast attack choice.
warp talons do not roll for scatter when entering from deep strike reserves.
If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen. (Including warp forged armor if the unit has an armor save)
If a model with daemonic possession would consume a vehicle it is transporting, that vehicle suffers a glancing hit instead.
Ahriman may take powers from the divination school
Gain the bonuses from the space marine codex for rhino based tanks fielded in squadrons.
Terminators, obliterators, and mutilators have their points reduced by 5 each
The daemonic possession upgrade grants the “daemon” special rule
Points adjustments(with this setup, any monstrous creatures that have the “demon forge” rule lose a wound instead of a hullpoint when they roll a “1” after activation, explode when they lose their last wound just like a vehicle would due to an explodes result, and are allowed to fire one more weapon than usual when shooting)
Khorne Lord of Skulls: add gaze of pain (24’ S10 ap1 heavy 2) init 4, and 3 hull points 888 points
Forge fiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 165
Maulerfiend (becomes a monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 140
Defiler (becomes a monstrous creature with 5 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 195
Helldrake (becomes a flying monstrous creature with 4 wounds @ toughness 7 3+ save) 175
Daemon prince 105
Hellbrute (4A base fielded in units of 1-3) 100
Land raider 255 ( becomes a fast vehicle)
Vindicator 95 (1-3)
Predator 75 (1-3)
Rhino 35
Thunderhawk gunship: 588
drop pod: 40 points. Can be taken as a dedicated transport by any unit that can normally take a rhino. may take dirge casters.
A lot of good ideas in here, figured I'd throw mine out there as well...
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Here is what I've done
-snip- If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen. (Including warp forged armor if the unit has an armor save)
Shouldn't it only get warp forged armour if the unit in question started with a good enough (3+ or better) save?
Also, would you switch the drop pod storm bolter for a combi bolter?
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Here is what I've done
-snip- If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen. (Including warp forged armor if the unit has an armor save)
Shouldn't it only get warp forged armour if the unit in question started with a good enough (3+ or better) save?
Also, would you switch the drop pod storm bolter for a combi bolter?
For the armor, yes. Since it would be retaining gear that was available I didn't think to specify that.
As for the storm bolter, i would definitive it count as a combi bolter. Should the little missile launcher stay the same, or make it a havoc launcher?
As for the storm bolter, i would definitive it count as a combi bolter. Should the little missile launcher stay the same, or make it a havoc launcher?
Agreed.
The missile launcher will be somewhat the same.
I want to apologize to everyone here for being so late with the update. I had work to do irl which caused to put the homebrew on low priority. I'll continue the work soon, it takes a bit more time since I have to decide which idea will be used or not.
New edit: Mark of Tzeentch will be an Inv save of 5+ or improved by one and the models gain Adamantium Will.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/07 12:56:55
Personally, I think the simplest changes would be:
1) Every infantry Marine by default gets a Bolter/Bolt Pistol/CCW stock. No "do I swap out my Bolter for a Chainsword", no "do I pay an extra two points for my extra CCW?" If you give all Chaos Marines the "grab-bag" of BP/CCW/Bolter for their current price, I would honestly consider that a viable alternative to Chapter Tactics (especially since they can also do basic melee Bikers). It would also simplify a lot of little things.
2) All "Cult Marines" get 2 attacks base, and don't pay extra for the Champion tax.
3) Chosen may take Bikes, or Mounts if aligned with the appropriate god. They may take 2 Heavies instead of just 1.
4) Redo Possessed similar to 3.5, where you choose their powers at army creation.
And really that should be mostly it. A few point tweaks here and there, a few swaps or nerfs or buffs (Giving Berserkers Rampage instead of Furious Charge would be nice; would give them another reason to take that Banner), some more overall options, and a better Codex is ours.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/08 16:13:58
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. Don't worry, I won't forget the sound weapons for the vehicles.
