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My FLGS didn't even bother to order any copies

My FLGS is enforcing it, and is asking people who used to bring flyers why they no longer bring flyers.

I have never used it, or seen anyone use it at my store.

One guy mentioned it offhand during a battle (something about the "Dogfight phase") but quickly everyone said "No" to it. I honestly belive the "No" was not against the rules but more the fact that... There was like 1 flyer in the whole game (I can't recall whom had the flyer in the battle, I think it was an Imperial player).

But otherwise... That's it. NO one has bothered to try it. But I think more than myself has the book.


I mostly grabbed the book for stats on the Stormhawk and other aircraft than anything else for conversion.

The rules are fine... Just seem... redundant. Like DLC or something. Cool but not really needed to function.


I would love to give it a try (at least once) but my group doesn't have a massive airforce to speak of.

I personally only recently got enough aircraft to function 2 Vendettas, 2 valks I just bought, 1 in a box/in pieces, and 1 Stormhawk converted from a JeeBee Racing Aircraft.

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS is enforcing it, and is asking people who used to bring flyers why they no longer bring flyers.

I think your flgs is really a lgs.

I'd definitely encourage people to try Stormcloud Attack. The App has the rules in it, so you don't need to buy the box if you've no use for it, but it's a standalone game that actually works, rather than flyers bolting on random complexity after other random complexity.

hobojebus wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS is enforcing it, and is asking people who used to bring flyers why they no longer bring flyers.

I think your flgs is really a lgs.

Lol!

They actually deserve the F for like 90% of the time, imo, this was just a weird thing. When it came out, I was looking at buying a flyer, but had 0 interest in using DftS, so asked the owner if we were going to have to use it if we wanted to field flyers. He said "Yeah, they replace the BRB flyer rules." I said "Okay then, nevermind on this purchase" and he got incredibly confused. Another day I was talking to one of the associates and another regular customer there who mentioned he wouldn't be bringing his flyers due to the enforcement of DftS and the associate asked "How do you know you won't like it, have you tried it?" We both explained that we weren't going to pay just to try something we didn't have any interest in, compounding rules on rules on rules on new mini-games, etc.

They do free narrative events every month, and at the end of one when the associate announced a DftS-themed event was coming up in a couple months, the attendees groaned lol. I think that's supposed to be the August narrative, so I'll be interested in finding out how many people go to it. I don't plan on it.

I understand them wanting to use rules, but when a supplement like this comes out, whether or not it says it replaces rules, if nearly your whole customer base tells you they have no interest in using it, it literally loses you sales (in the example of me not buying a flyer), and use of flyers drops, how do you justify being stubborn about it?

locarno24 wrote:
I'd definitely encourage people to try Stormcloud Attack. The App has the rules in it, so you don't need to buy the box if you've no use for it, but it's a standalone game that actually works, rather than flyers bolting on random complexity after other random complexity.

Part of the problems with DftS is that it was clearly unfinished. It wasn't a working or fun ruleset, but at the same time they had Stormcloud Attack that was finished and worked much better, so they had to shovel DftS out the door to make way for their other product. They knew it was unfinish and unfun, but weren't willing to take a loss on it for the development costs so they tried to market it as "Mandatory" which probably convinced some people to buy it that wouldn't otherwise, and fathered their secondary goals of making sure friendly pickup games are harder to accomplish, as well as making sure that Eldar and Space Marines win while Orks, IG, and Tyranids lose.

I think the local GW around here try to enforce it.

But no one else does.

It just overcomplicates things, stuffs over 3 armies which actually have a playerbase here (Sisters, Tyranids and Daemons) and doesn't have FW support. End of the day no one wants additional phases or results that literally come down to Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Plus, you know, if you really wanted an aircraft fighting game there was IA for that.

Never saw it in game. My group is not using those rules, as they are too problematic and time consuming.

It wasn't a working or fun ruleset, but at the same time they had Stormcloud Attack that was finished and worked much better, so they had to shovel DftS out the door to make way for their other product.

Indeed. I want to say the release order (Death From The Skies then Stormcloud Attack) was unintentional but I don't believe it.

The latter is a standalone game - and actually a really good one - yet the base rules are cheaper and, as you noted, it's better put together. Death From the Skies is, in hindsight....so-so. If I wanted a pure flyer game, I'd now jump straight to Stormcloud Attack, and if I just want a 40k game with flyers occasionally doing strafing runs.... there was nothing massively wrong with the game before.

The Attack Patterns were nice - Indomitable pattern specifically giving a 4++ save meaning flyers with blast weapons (like a Razorwing) can actually choose not to jink and might still live long enough to fire the damn things, but that and the Ace tables could have been bundled into a £5 dataslate and be done with.

In short, if I'd known Stormcloud Attack was coming out, I'd have ignored Death From The Skies completely.

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS is enforcing it, and is asking people who used to bring flyers why they no longer bring flyers.

Really? Doesn't the book say expansion on the back?
That is like forcing everyone to play escalation back in 6th edition. Kind of a dick move.

Void space. Never used here in the gaming group.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS is enforcing it, and is asking people who used to bring flyers why they no longer bring flyers.

Really? Doesn't the book say expansion on the back?
That is like forcing everyone to play escalation back in 6th edition. Kind of a dick move.

It could simply be wanting to provide a stable rules interpretation for all players to be on the same page when they play games at the store, I don't think it's really bad in thought.

In the end I watched a single batrep using it and went nope, not buying and not playing.
It seems so lame for a whole book for flyers, I honestly thought they would do something like-
Drop craft, something like able to land units from reserve each turn.
Fighters/intercepter, makes attack runs each turn. Placing the model down for its attack before it flys off.
Gunships, flying around on the tabletop like a helicopter.

Give fighters the ability to intercept the other two on the oponants turn to skip there turn on yours, and demons tyranids some special rules to interact in the new phase. And now every army has some expansion for 3 new units.
Would have been more awesome I think if they actuly thought about integrating air units into the game in a more natural way.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS is enforcing it, and is asking people who used to bring flyers why they no longer bring flyers.

Really? Doesn't the book say expansion on the back?
That is like forcing everyone to play escalation back in 6th edition. Kind of a dick move.

Yeah, but it's like they say - "Vote with your wallet." I was planning on getting 3-4 flyers, but since this is really the only place I play in events at, there is currently no reason to do so. I might be the only one, but still.

It just bothered me even more the attitude at the place (just when this book was involved). I felt like the owner thought it was dumb for me to even ask if we were going to be using DftS in some events, and his instant reaction of "Yeah they replace the current flyer rules" had a tone of "Fething DUH we're using it" that I really didn't appreciate. And then the associate essentially trying to sell it with "How do you know you don't like it if you haven't tried it yet?" Well dude, how about you set up a demo then? I'm not gonna pay for something I have 0 interest in after doing research on what it entails, just to try out the thing I already am not interested in.

Like I said, everything else seems okay with the store, but then this book came out. I'm just glad DftS dropped when it did. I would have spent so much money on flyers that would see very little play, and only in casual games.

Sounds like he made the mistake a lot have made.

They don't replace the flyer rules unless you're using DFTS. In which case, you ignore the BRB and use DFTS instead.

BossJakadakk wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
My FLGS is enforcing it, and is asking people who used to bring flyers why they no longer bring flyers.

Really? Doesn't the book say expansion on the back?
That is like forcing everyone to play escalation back in 6th edition. Kind of a dick move.

Yeah, but it's like they say - "Vote with your wallet." I was planning on getting 3-4 flyers, but since this is really the only place I play in events at, there is currently no reason to do so. I might be the only one, but still.

It just bothered me even more the attitude at the place (just when this book was involved). I felt like the owner thought it was dumb for me to even ask if we were going to be using DftS in some events, and his instant reaction of "Yeah they replace the current flyer rules" had a tone of "Fething DUH we're using it" that I really didn't appreciate. And then the associate essentially trying to sell it with "How do you know you don't like it if you haven't tried it yet?" Well dude, how about you set up a demo then? I'm not gonna pay for something I have 0 interest in after doing research on what it entails, just to try out the thing I already am not interested in.

Like I said, everything else seems okay with the store, but then this book came out. I'm just glad DftS dropped when it did. I would have spent so much money on flyers that would see very little play, and only in casual games.

It's like saying how do you know you won't like having your eye gouged out with a spoon, some things you just know Arnt for you.

hobojebus wrote:

It's like saying how do you know you won't like having your eye gouged out with a spoon, some things you just know Arnt for you.

Good one. I have to remember this.

Up until this thread I had never seen it.
And then lo and behold, mere days after reading this thread I turn up to my FLGS and see three of the players in my club playing it.
I think Dakka has some kind of weird warpy magic effect on the real world.

Haven't bought the book, don't know anyone who bought the book, haven't heard of anyone I know using the rules in their games. No real interest in doing so.

The two local stores near me both had events where they tried out the new rules. Nobody liked it, and since then we haven't used it. Nobody I know of has even tried to get someone to use those rules since that event.

It's quite telling when even the ITC won't adopt a supplement - which is the case here.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It's quite telling when even the ITC won't adopt a supplement - which is the case here.

I don't know much about the ITC so forgive my ignorance here but when they make those kinds of calls are we talking about 3 guys in an office deciding they don't like the look of it so they won't adopt it, or more like a huge collection of event organizers from all over the world spending three weeks discussing it online until they come to the conclusion that they will not adopt it as that's the position the community as a whole seems to want them to take?

Wow, has it been 3 months already?

Our small group in Delhi took one look, said Nah and moved on.

I'm usually the only one with fliers anyway (Valykrie, 2 Vendettas).

I still think everyone should own it so that they can run Heldrakes without the horrible CSM tax.

You can do that now.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
It's quite telling when even the ITC won't adopt a supplement - which is the case here.

I don't know much about the ITC so forgive my ignorance here but when they make those kinds of calls are we talking about 3 guys in an office deciding they don't like the look of it so they won't adopt it, or more like a huge collection of event organizers from all over the world spending three weeks discussing it online until they come to the conclusion that they will not adopt it as that's the position the community as a whole seems to want them to take?

Actually they put in up for a vote by their tournament attendees. They have 4 votes a year on rules/balance issues. Although any TO can alter the ITC rules as they like and add the DftS to their event .

Dogfight aside, it makes fielding Flyers with other non-Flyer Formations or Detachments without their own Flyers so much easier. Like I can run 2 Razorwing with all Homonculus Formations, or 2 Storm Talons with Ad Mech, etc.

I've not seen Dogfighting yet, as no game I've witnessed has had opposing flyers. We have been using air superiority and bank turns, as well as roles.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Up until this thread I had never seen it.
And then lo and behold, mere days after reading this thread I turn up to my FLGS and see three of the players in my club playing it.
I think Dakka has some kind of weird warpy magic effect on the real world.

And now with uncanny timing, the Forgeworld flyer update comes out. I'm torn, as it made the Marauder Destroyer *very* good and the lightning/thunderbolt into something almost viable. It's like they did it properly or something.

Slightly distressing that the Vendetta now has no official support anywhere though.

How does DFTS compare to Stormcloud in terms of pure flyer on flyer fun?
I have 10 flyers and would love a good old dogfight set of rules.
*No CAD footsloggers were harmed in this question*