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EmergencyPod wrote:
Did I do anything unethical

I replied on the Reaper thread, but, while *you* didn't do anything unethical, plenty of other KS did, by using existing photos and artwork from other sources and not stating they had permission. Since you did the same thing, KS did the lazy thing and pulled the project.

As for "net detectives", don't play the victim card. These "net detectives" are the same people who look out for backers to avoid their money from disappearing. If you don't provide the information backers need (including biographies and project experience of your project team), backers can't properly assess the risk of the project. From a backer's point of view, KS is nothing but strangers asking you for money. You need to turn yourself from a stranger to someone who can be trusted.

I don't see a time-critical deadline, so resolve this issue with KS (that may take awhile) then relaunch. While waiting, get a newsletter started (eg. contact your FaceBook supporters). If you can get a prototype, computer design picture, etc. made, all the better. See if there are other similar KS projects and use them as models of how to present your project, perhaps even contacting the creators for advice and assistance.

I've invested into several KS projects. Some of them years ago, and I'm still waiting to hear back.

Honestly, I did not pick up on the level of suspicion.

I am appealing the situation to KS, but as it stands now I think KS has a policy of no response no correction.

So my choices are to reattempt a KS, go to Indiegogo, or to just serve the gaming community through a retail website directly.

What do you all think?

Joe

I think you've got to fully address all the comments and worries, even if it means disclosing far more business info than you feel you should have to

Hopefully KS will respond that they're satsifed with the info you've provided them and you'll either be able to continue there or to relaunch (which might be better)

Indiegogo generates far more suspicion than KS (partly because its smaller, partly as it's seen as European rather than American by American backers, partly as it does allow 'begging' projects and partly it allows flexible funding where the project creator keeps the cash and tries to fulfil things even if the funding target isn't hit)

so I think any attempt to move to indiegogo will not be popular (and will probably lead the the people who reported you to KS reporting you to indiegogo too)


as for going straight to retail only you know whether you'd be able to afford the minimum order (and storage for the minimum order as you wouldn't be able to plan to get a significant number out of the door soon after delivery). A few thousand minis are bad enough to find space for in your house/garage, a few thousand tables even if they do fold up is probably going to be impossible to live with

If you opt to go straight to retail is there going to be any kind of priority given to backers? Because I know I was one of the very first. Though I'd rather you just get in touch with Kickstarter and get this sorted out.

Oh man that's awful. I was so excited for this. I really really hope you can get this off the ground again! Best of luck man, and I'll be keeping an eye here for the relaunch or retail site or whatever you do.

So yesterday was filled with emotion, mainly rage and sadness. Today we get back to being calm and collected. I have already posted on FB our company stance. Firmerterra.com now has an email sign up to keep you posted when the tables arrive.

That being said. I am dismayed at the turn of events yesterday. I bear no ill will towards the "Netdetectives", I'm sure you were only looking out for the interests of the flock and you had no malice intended in your actions. I blame my-self for that because I elected to respond to everyone via message instead of posting a blanket explanation or update. I bear no ill will towards KS, I'm sure they were looking to maintain the integrity of their community. I do not agree with their decision but it is their prerogative to do what they did and therefore I support it.

I am appealing the decision, at least to the point where they will let us run another, shorter, campaign in the future.

Now, since this is a product for the community, and essentially it was funded by the community I think it's only fair that the community decides what happens next.

[1] We can appeal KS and try to relaunch.
[2] We can explore other funding sites like Indiegogo
[3] We move straight to retail

You all tell me what you think is best, or just email me and let me know your thoughts.

To our EU customers, we are still on track to fulfill this order and then fill up a warehouse in Poland for distribution.

To our Canadian friends, we are working on a drop shipper somewhere in the Maple Leaf to get these units to you as efficiently as possible.

Yesterday I was broken. It took my kids to remind me that this isn't a bread and butter project, it's a project that was supposed to be fun and result in having even more enjoyment out of a hobby (and community) that I have come to keep close to my heart. Today, we are moving full steam ahead. I will be playing on this table by the holidays barring a sinkhole accident or lightning strike (both seeming probable at this time due to recent experiences).

What do you all think?

If you can go straight to retail that would be my choice.

Wait, so the Netdetectives just made a bunch of slowed assumptions and instead of taking your word and evidence, had Kickstarter pull the project?

I signed up for an email notification when you start selling them through your website. This board will be very convenient for me.

Best of luck!

 judgedoug wrote:
Wait, so the Netdetectives just made a bunch of slowed assumptions and instead of taking your word and evidence, had Kickstarter pull the project?

That's the way it seems. Although I cannot tell you for sure because I do not want to jump to conclusions.

Sucks, but that is the way it is. Chin up and move forward.

Thank you all for the words of encouragement.

EmergencyPod wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Wait, so the Netdetectives just made a bunch of slowed assumptions and instead of taking your word and evidence, had Kickstarter pull the project?

That's the way it seems. Although I cannot tell you for sure because I do not want to jump to conclusions.

Sucks, but that is the way it is. Chin up and move forward.

Thank you all for the words of encouragement.

Well that puts you light-years ahead of the unasked-for internet nanny who did exactly that and may well have screwed me out of a gaming table that would fit my needs to the letter.

Man that smarts, I hope you guys can come back from it! For what it's worth, if you decide to start the project anew elsewhere and include Canadian and Mexican donators for the rewards program or offer a discount off the finished project equal to their donation size, I'd be all over it!

Best of luck to you guys! You'll find no shortage of buyers for a 6x4 folding if you make it, and make it well!

Nothing like getting kicked in the face to make you step back and reevaluate everything

hopefully you take it all in stride and come back better and stronger.

still hoping you change all the edges to squares to fit matts and Realm of battle boards better.

I have a question if that's ok.

You mention a prototype a lot and you have a video of your daughter putting a table up (well just the legs) and photos of the semi fold etc.

Is that actually a protoype that you have built for your table or is it just one of the tables from the other company?

EmergencyPod wrote:
So yesterday was filled with emotion, mainly rage and sadness. Today we get back to being calm and collected. I have already posted on FB our company stance. Firmerterra.com now has an email sign up to keep you posted when the tables arrive.

That being said. I am dismayed at the turn of events yesterday. I bear no ill will towards the "Netdetectives", I'm sure you were only looking out for the interests of the flock and you had no malice intended in your actions. I blame my-self for that because I elected to respond to everyone via message instead of posting a blanket explanation or update. I bear no ill will towards KS, I'm sure they were looking to maintain the integrity of their community. I do not agree with their decision but it is their prerogative to do what they did and therefore I support it.

I am appealing the decision, at least to the point where they will let us run another, shorter, campaign in the future.

Now, since this is a product for the community, and essentially it was funded by the community I think it's only fair that the community decides what happens next.

[1] We can appeal KS and try to relaunch.
[2] We can explore other funding sites like Indiegogo
[3] We move straight to retail

You all tell me what you think is best, or just email me and let me know your thoughts.

To our EU customers, we are still on track to fulfill this order and then fill up a warehouse in Poland for distribution.

To our Canadian friends, we are working on a drop shipper somewhere in the Maple Leaf to get these units to you as efficiently as possible.

Yesterday I was broken. It took my kids to remind me that this isn't a bread and butter project, it's a project that was supposed to be fun and result in having even more enjoyment out of a hobby (and community) that I have come to keep close to my heart. Today, we are moving full steam ahead. I will be playing on this table by the holidays barring a sinkhole accident or lightning strike (both seeming probable at this time due to recent experiences).

What do you all think?

Retail will be a slower but more sustainable approach, in my inexpert opinion. Sure, crowdfunding gives you an immediate boost in funds and you know you have at least a certain number of sales but there are intrinsic issues as well (shipping woes, production delays, disgruntled backers due to the previously mentioned delays slagging your name all over the internet).

Good luck.

Well, crap. I was gonna get 4 of these from the kickstarter. The price was right. No way will I be getting these now. I like them a lot and want them, but I do have access to a full wood and metals shop. As well as the materials. What I can make myself won't be light or as portable, but will be cheaper. The kickstarter offered the tables at the right price for me. Sad this happened. Best of luck to you. Hopefully you will be able to eventually offer the tables at the kickstarter product+shipping price.

I'm so sorry that people took it upon themselves to police a well intended project and destroyed it. I'm also sorry that there's no way for you to update or tell people that it was unjust.

Chin up, and you have one UK buyer here.

I picked up two folding tables from Target that collapse up fairly thin and combine to make a 6'x5' surface. Corners are round, but it did the job for a third of the price. Just saying.

EmergencyPod wrote:
Honestly, I did not pick up on the level of suspicion.

Well, I *did* contact you and tell you you should have explained why the photos looked just like those by an Amazon seller, but you didn't, and this is what happened.

Another yellow flag is that you did not tell us anything about the creators of this project, which I also pointed out in my letter to you. That's the same behavior scammers have used in the past.

Is there a better way of helping you pick up on the level of suspicion besides telling you directly???

Here're some other KS table projects you can study and steal ideas from. If at all possible (and I'm not sure if it is for a steel table), show pics of a prototype. Can you get a loan for a prototype to be made?
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=kickstarter+table

There's a good reason why "net detectives" do this. The reason is that there have been scams that used artwork from other sources. Also, if a company uses another company's artwork on their final product without permission, and the other company takes legal action, the *backers* may not receive the final product. There's at least one video game with stolen artwork, and I know of a game tile KS that did this as well. Here's the video game: http://observer.com/2012/04/this-is-what-a-kickstarter-scam-looks-like/

SO WE ARE BACK!

Instead of relaunching on Kickstarter we spent a few months vetting the entire campaign with the folks at Indiegogo. After they gave us full approval we have launched the funder campign.

Some changes since last time:

[1] We spent the money and retooled and purchased an expensive prototype
[2] The table you see in the video is the ALPHA Game Table and not a functional model
[3] We are running the campaign to mail out the tables as soon as they are inspected and warehoused.
[4] This is the best chance at getting an ALPHA in your hands before the holidays.

We have tested, and retested this prototype and we are getting great feedback. It's lightweight, it's strong, and it's small when folded away.

Hooray Table.

Goto firmerterra.com for the link to the campaign.

We also predict selling a limited amount of these from our site, but later on and without the price break.

[b]Also, please please please spread the word. We pretty much blew our budget on marketing last time, and we will NOT be increasing the prices to remain true to the initial promise.

I saw they started to make these. Anyone buy one? Are they any good?