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I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

Indeed, after see the wulfen, orks players cry


In any case the main fact of the nob being rubbish is the principal problem of full ork codex (units and wargear): extreme overpriced.


Because reasons, all is really overpriced according to how durable or killing are on the table.


The ork have a problem: they have a lot of unit prices that suits into a specialist army...but on units with the stats of a cheap horde unit

Franarok wrote:
Indeed, after see the wulfen, orks players cry


In any case the main fact of the nob being rubbish is the principal problem of full ork codex (units and wargear): extreme overpriced.


Because reasons, all is really overpriced according to how durable or killing are on the table.


The ork have a problem: they have a lot of unit prices that suits into a specialist army...but on units with the stats of a cheap horde unit

Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Minimum squad of Nob Bikers with 1 powerklaw = 160pts
Minimum squad of Warbikers with 1 Powerklaw nob = 89pts.

For similar points costs to that Nob biker squad you can take 6 Warbiker and 1 Warbiker Nob with a PK

In other words Nob bikers have 6 wounds, to Warbikers 8. Nobz have 3 PK S8 attacks (4 and S9 on charge) and 8 S4 attacks (10 and S5 on charge) vs the Warbikers having the same amount of PK attacks and 18 S3 attacks (24 and S4 on charge).

Nobz can fire 9 S5 TL shots vs the Warbikers 21.
Basically, Nob bikers suck compared to warbikers.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Minimum squad of Nob Bikers with 1 powerklaw = 160pts
Minimum squad of Warbikers with 1 Powerklaw nob = 89pts.

For similar points costs to that Nob biker squad you can take 6 Warbiker and 1 Warbiker Nob with a PK

In other words Nob bikers have 6 wounds, to Warbikers 8. Nobz have 3 PK S8 attacks (4 and S9 on charge) and 8 S4 attacks (10 and S5 on charge) vs the Warbikers having the same amount of PK attacks and 18 S3 attacks (24 and S4 on charge).

Nobz can fire 9 S5 TL shots vs the Warbikers 21.
Basically, Nob bikers suck compared to warbikers.

Yup. Honestly I find I use the bikers in so much becuase of their solid shooting which is identical between a Nob and boy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

From my point of view as an Ork / Nid player, Wolfen are much more Nob like than Genestealer. They are big beefy, and killy with lots of special weapons. They rely on 4+ armor and FNP.

Genestealers are infiltrators, and renders and limited wargear options. They should definitely be improved with massive points drops and ability upgrades, but I'm not really envisioning them to be much like Wulfen. Maybe more like Genestealer Cult Hybrids. (Grenades, Infiltrate, Stealth, no instinctive behavior, more attacks, and much, much cheaper). The other option is to make them beasts to fix some of their mobility problems, so I guess that makes them more like... Necron scarabs? Rending Khornedogs?

Think that to make competitive the nobs and the codex they need do a general point reduction. All the units should cost 1/3 or the 50% of the current price (depending of the unit current status)

tag8833 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

From my point of view as an Ork / Nid player, Wolfen are much more Nob like than Genestealer. They are big beefy, and killy with lots of special weapons. They rely on 4+ armor and FNP.

Genestealers are infiltrators, and renders and limited wargear options. They should definitely be improved with massive points drops and ability upgrades, but I'm not really envisioning them to be much like Wulfen. Maybe more like Genestealer Cult Hybrids. (Grenades, Infiltrate, Stealth, no instinctive behavior, more attacks, and much, much cheaper). The other option is to make them beasts to fix some of their mobility problems, so I guess that makes them more like... Necron scarabs? Rending Khornedogs?

Genestealers are infiltrators but according to their blurb in their codex 'They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.' sounds an aweful lot like the Wulfen right now? According to the table-top however they fill the battlefield role of clay pigeons.

I'd like to see them get rules to reflect just how terrifying they should be, these things plant eggs and in and make zombies out of victims!
I'd like to see them get faster to get into combat by way of Bounding Lope then if they win the combat roll a dice for each model removed as a casualty the same turn to see if they become brood slaves.
3-6 nothing happens
Roll of 1 or 2 the model gets back up losing armour and invulnerable saves and is now under the control of the Genestealer's controller.

I'd actually like to see all Gaunts become beasts and Hermagaunts in particular get Bounding Lope.

Nids would be epic if they had just those changes.

Genestealers are infiltrators but according to their blurb in their codex 'They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.' sounds an aweful lot like the Wulfen right now? According to the table-top however they fill the battlefield role of clay pigeons.

To be honest, I think Genestealers are about right. What they need to work isn't to be tougher or stabbier but sneakier. The Ghosar Quintus Broodkin and Manufactorum Genestealer formations do this perfectly; your opponent gets long enough to go "wait....did you hear somethaaaaaaarrg!" before getting buried in genestealers who've infiltrated 1" away from him.


Nobz are okay. As noted, a big problem is that a basic nob costs three times the price of a basic boy - which is a fair comparison as they're from the same codex, and the boy (as a troops choice) can get Objective Secured where the Nob cannot.

The problem is that Nobz don't have one-and-a-half times the fighting power of the same weight of ork boyz. Bolt on loads of upgrades....sure, then you do, at WS5, S6, Sv4+ and Feel No Pain, but by then you're paying - as noted - close to Meganobz prices, and Meganobz are most definitely better in a scrap.

Yes, regular nobz can fire overwatch - but don't really have the firepower for that to matter - and can run - but orks have easy access to open-topped fast transports, so you can get round that easily.

A big problem is that they cap at units of ten, and another is that a big part of their durability is an extra wound. The difference between having 2 wounds and a 4+ save is most important in assaults; if two identical units fight an assault, but one has 2 wounds and one has a 4+ save, the latter will win almost all the time because saved wounds don't count towards combat results. Since Nobz are emphatically an assault unit, and furthermore are an assault unit with fairly shoddy leadership, the fact that they can easily lose a round of combat to a unit they would actually kill in the long run seriously impact their effectiveness.

Nobz were always one of my favourite units when I used to play 40k. Very characterful models, and great for the modelling side of the hobby.

In a tournament environment where every point counts, I don't doubt that nobz are unpopular, but if you're playing friendly games or low points games, they are a fun unit that are good to play.

My advice would be this: if you like the unit, run them. It's supposed to be a fun hobby at the end of the day...

They have no dependable delivery method, die to bolter fire, and die faster to str 8, and are more susceptible to bad leadership dice due to their number. Most typical opponents might play one game against you were you might slip one good nob unit in there and maybe it'll make a mess but once they know they are expensive and essentially dead to any shooting they will prioritize them. They are a weak link except maybe as a 3 man unit to play hell with your opponents shooting priorities, then only a distraction at best.

I field nobz often, anytime I get fancier then a 3 man unit they just become expensive casualties.

So how do you field them just 3 nude nobz ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or 3 +1 pwr klw. Just a a cheap klaw missile ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
So how do you field them just 3 nude nobz ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or 3 +1 pwr klw. Just a a cheap klaw missile ?

Yes, small enough to forget. If rest if the army is walking they walk, otherwise I might give them a truck. Put them next to something so they can supply an extra klaw who doesnt have to be a character.

It's not good it's just the only way your opponent might ignore them

 Rismonite wrote:
Yes, small enough to forget. If rest if the army is walking they walk, otherwise I might give them a truck. Put them next to something so they can supply an extra klaw who doesnt have to be a character.

It's not good it's just the only way your opponent might ignore them

The problem with that is that boyz are better at scoring, assaulting, and surviving, so if you'd rather take boys in that role.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Why take nobz when you can take Meganobz?

This. in the 5th edition codex, there was a balance between nobz and meganobz - nobz had +1 WS, invluns, and FNP, which made them effective at tackling a range of mean things (especially AP2 things), whereas meganobz had a dirt-cheap 2+ armor and PK, for roughly the same overall points cost.

In this codex, neither has invluns, both have the same access to FNP, and meganobz can now get +1 WS from DLS. And they are cheaper than a similarly equipped nob with worse armor ('eavy armor and PK).

So, simply put, nobz have no real advantages over MANZ anymore. Yes, they can run and sweeping advance, but that's nothing compared to the bargain 2+ armor save and PK.

That being said, I do occasionally run nobz, and they honestly aren't horrible. But anymore, any job nobz can do meganobz can do better. It's sad, because they both had their place before, but MANZ are now objectively better than nobz in all the ways that count.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Indeed, after see the wulfen, orks players cry


In any case the main fact of the nob being rubbish is the principal problem of full ork codex (units and wargear): extreme overpriced.


Because reasons, all is really overpriced according to how durable or killing are on the table.


The ork have a problem: they have a lot of unit prices that suits into a specialist army...but on units with the stats of a cheap horde unit

Orc and Nid players both.
I don't know how the Wulfen would translate to Orcs on a fluff level but they are what Genestealers really should be.

Wulfen and Genestealers are completely different.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I think nob bikers are too expensive to be good. I would rather take more normal bikers.

Minimum squad of Nob Bikers with 1 powerklaw = 160pts
Minimum squad of Warbikers with 1 Powerklaw nob = 89pts.

For similar points costs to that Nob biker squad you can take 6 Warbiker and 1 Warbiker Nob with a PK

In other words Nob bikers have 6 wounds, to Warbikers 8. Nobz have 3 PK S8 attacks (4 and S9 on charge) and 8 S4 attacks (10 and S5 on charge) vs the Warbikers having the same amount of PK attacks and 18 S3 attacks (24 and S4 on charge).

Nobz can fire 9 S5 TL shots vs the Warbikers 21.
Basically, Nob bikers suck compared to warbikers.

Yup. Honestly I find I use the bikers in so much becuase of their solid shooting which is identical between a Nob and boy.

Yup, anything Nobz can do, boyz can do better, and for cheaper.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
in the 5th edition codex, there was a balance between nobz and meganobz

There was no balance cause meganobz sucked. No fnp, no characters for bp - just raw ld7. They needed a babysitter. Nobz on the other hand, could get 5++ and back it up with 4+++ which made them on par with 2+ armor point-to point against non-ap2/id and better against ap2. Easier wound-cheezing options too. Oh, and bikes ofc. And let's not forget that every power weapon was ap2 and it was not so rare to meet a power sword sarge in a tactical squad.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Genestealers are infiltrators but according to their blurb in their codex 'They are amongst the most deadly creatures in the Galaxy, combining high cunning, lightning-fast reactions and movement, with large, extremely sharp claws that can rip through the toughest armour in seconds.' sounds an aweful lot like the Wulfen right now? According to the table-top however they fill the battlefield role of clay pigeons.

I think they fluff is just a hold over from the RT/ALIEN/Space Hulk days.

In second edition they were terrifying, capable of shredding Terminators to ribbons.
In 3rd ? edition they had the equivalent of power weapons, making them too expensive for what they did.
Then they nerfed the power weapon approach, and made plastic hormagaunts which just do the same job cheaper.

Up until the recent Genestealer Cult rules, there hasn't been much of a reason to field them, other than they look cool.

 adamsouza wrote:
Up until the recent Genestealer Cult rules, there hasn't been much of a reason to field them, other than they look cool.

They are also the weakest part of the genestealer cult. The number of times I've pulled off a turn 1 charge only to have them die in CC before they get to Swing because they lack grenades is only equaled by the number of times they've died to overwatch.

They Hybrids are like better and cheaper version of Genestealers.

Genestealers are in a rather sad state.
I think GW are too attached to the statlines of units. They add/remove/change special rules all the time, but it's very rare for them to change the numbers on a unit.

They had a chance to fix genestealers with GSC, but they opted to instead just add Stealth and Hit-And-Run. Leaving them alongside new units that out-perform them in basically every way.

Arson Fire wrote:
Genestealers are in a rather sad state.
I think GW are too attached to the statlines of units. They add/remove/change special rules all the time, but it's very rare for them to change the numbers on a unit.

They had a chance to fix genestealers with GSC, but they opted to instead just add Stealth and Hit-And-Run. Leaving them alongside new units that out-perform them in basically every way.

No offense to the rest of you guys rambling about Genestealers in a Ork Nob thread, but could you please get back on topic or make your own thread?

As far as the statline changes the only time I can think of that happening in recent memory was the SM scouts getting +1 WS/BS. Besides that I actually can't think of any, i am sure there are some, they are just escaping me atm.

I would love to see Ork Nobz get +1 T and at least +1 Leadership, maybe come stock with 4+ armor as well.

tag8833 wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Yes, small enough to forget. If rest if the army is walking they walk, otherwise I might give them a truck. Put them next to something so they can supply an extra klaw who doesnt have to be a character.

It's not good it's just the only way your opponent might ignore them

The problem with that is that boyz are better at scoring, assaulting, and surviving, so if you'd rather take boys in that role.

This 100% correct. I would like to offer they have an almost acceptable niche in being small enough to work around large blocks of boyz rather well. They can also be armed to have a character for challenges and a hidden klaw. As assault support of sorts. I never run like 6 squads of three and pretend its a mainstay, but a friendly game that I run 3 blocks of 30 boyz maybe I jam a squad of three nobz between each of the blocks of boyz

The issue with all orks is that damned 6+ armor.

Nobz would be fine at their point value except they have 6+ armor....

 sfshilo wrote:
The issue with all orks is that damned 6+ armor.

Nobz would be fine at their point value except they have 6+ armor....

And the only good upgrade for them is a PK. No weapons, no abilities, nothing.

To make Nobz better give them the 4+ armour for free it makes sense that your bigger better boys get bigger better armour

Give all Nobz 4+ armor stock and give Big Choppas rending. This makes them decently good at tearing up vehicles and can fight those high toughness and high armor targets. Not quite Wulfen levels of destruction but it gives them a needed price drop and doesn't make them inept at fighting anything with 2+ armor without having to shell out for 25 point PKs.

As it currently stands if you want to kill things in close combat you take MANz, if you aren't giving everybody PKs then your just trying to be higher strength boyz so might as well take Flash Gitz who at least have formidable guns. Bikes would be the thing to go but GW nerfed the bike cost for Nobz because whoever wrote the Ork dex had 5th edition PTSD. Also now that Nobz can't take cybork and it isn't 5++ anymore there isn't any niche for Nobz to take when you can just throw a Painboy into a MANz squad.

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.