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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

nareik wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

They're a fantastic melee unit in an Imperial army.

Odds of Orks, Tyranids or CSM getting a unit half as good given their speedbump status that GW seems to want to enforce? Not great.

nareik wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

I think the point he was making is that SM players already have all sorts of good toys to play with and good units to draw from and amazing gear to add on that is priced relatively well. Giving them a Giant Melee beat stick to go with everything else makes those armies who are COMPLETELY melee based, Nids, CSM and Orks feel like they are getting screwed over.

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

I'm a SW player and I'm bothered by Wulfen...

What really irritates me is how SW get (literally) a +1 version of basically every melee weapon. Wolf claws? S+1 LC, for the exact same price. Frost claws? S+1 AP2. And so on.

Back on topic, the fact that elite units pay HQ-level prices for weapons and gear is a big issue. A Power Klaw might be worth it on a Warboss, but not a Nob. A pair of Lightning Claws might be worth it on a Chaos Lord, but not a Chosen.

 Lukash_ wrote:
What really irritates me is how SW get (literally) a +1 version of basically every melee weapon. Wolf claws? S+1 LC, for the exact same price. Frost claws? S+1 AP2. And so on.

Back on topic, the fact that elite units pay HQ-level prices for weapons and gear is a big issue. A Power Klaw might be worth it on a Warboss, but not a Nob. A pair of Lightning Claws might be worth it on a Chaos Lord, but not a Chosen.

They aren't the same price. If you want to talk about getting +1 for things look at SM.

The pricing system for GW is strange. Some units seem to have randomly cheaper upgrades e.g. Ravenwing Huntmaster gets a 7 point power weapon IIRC.

SemperMortis wrote:

nareik wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

nareik wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Wolfen are what Nobz wish they were. Better stats. Better abilities. Better USRs. Faster. Better Wargear. Way, Way, Way, Way cheaper Wargear. Better Synergy. Way, Way Better formations.

So long as Wolfen are several orders of magnitude better than Nobz, it will be hard to call nobz "Good".

True, but I don't think non-space wolf players can be too mad at wulfen.

For so long melee specialists like possessed, nobs, etc have been decried as not good enough. It would be a shame if GW continued in this way and made wulfen a limp fish in melee too. Hopefully as things get redone they will be a little more like wulfen in their tabletop performance.

To be fair, Wulfen are cheaper, better statted, have better wargear options, a flying transport option...oh, and special rules that basically get around a lot of the problems with melee specialists.

Wulfen are that giant middle finger to Orks, Tyranid and CSM players everywhere.

Completely disagree on your last sentence. They are a seed of hope. The fact they aren't a sucktacular melee unit gives hope to the others.

I think the point he was making is that SM players already have all sorts of good toys to play with and good units to draw from and amazing gear to add on that is priced relatively well. Giving them a Giant Melee beat stick to go with everything else makes those armies who are COMPLETELY melee based, Nids, CSM and Orks feel like they are getting screwed over.

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

Wulfen are not a SM unit though, they are a SW unit. SW are just as as much "completely" melee as Nids, CSM and Orks.

Like mentioned, it is hopefully a sign that melee is going to make a come back and hopefully other codex(es) get similar.

SemperMortis wrote:

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

To be fair I don't think there is anything outside of a psychic enhanced deathstar that can go up against Wulfen without getting obliterated in melee. Wulfen are the kind of unit that requires ranged firepower to deal with.

 Vankraken wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

To be fair I don't think there is anything outside of a psychic enhanced deathstar that can go up against Wulfen without getting obliterated in melee. Wulfen are the kind of unit that requires ranged firepower to deal with.

And we all know how much ranged firepower orks have at their disposal

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

For Orks I can say that I don't have a single unit that can stand up to wulfen in CC. My entire army is CC oriented and I don't have a unit nearly as good as that. wtf?

To be fair I don't think there is anything outside of a psychic enhanced deathstar that can go up against Wulfen without getting obliterated in melee. Wulfen are the kind of unit that requires ranged firepower to deal with.

And we all know how much ranged firepower orks have at their disposal

Tons, just none of it is good

Ranged weapons that ignore cover? none, except the missiles from the Burna Bomber.....arguably the worst flyer in the game.

Ranged weapons with BS3 or better? Mek gunz....with their Ld5 or whatever the hell it is.

Orks' firepower is qute decent. It's enough to deal with wulfen. Not enough to deal with invisible wulfen though.

 koooaei wrote:
Orks' firepower is qute decent. It's enough to deal with wulfen. Not enough to deal with invisible wulfen though.

Only if you sunk a lot of your army into a gun line.

I tried surprising a friend who plays Mechanicus with an Ork Gunline. Battlewagons with Kill Kannons, filled with Lootas, Mek Gunz, shoota boyz. It didnt work for garbage. Orks are literally piss poor at EVERYTHING.

Think of what the orks are good at and there is an entire race that is better at it then the orks. CC? KDK are better, Gun line? tons of armies are better, Maneuverability? Eldar/Tau are better, cheap horde army? Nids and IG are better.

Nobz are supposed to be on par with other armies elite choices, they aren't.

pm713 wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
What really irritates me is how SW get (literally) a +1 version of basically every melee weapon. Wolf claws? S+1 LC, for the exact same price. Frost claws? S+1 AP2. And so on.

Back on topic, the fact that elite units pay HQ-level prices for weapons and gear is a big issue. A Power Klaw might be worth it on a Warboss, but not a Nob. A pair of Lightning Claws might be worth it on a Chaos Lord, but not a Chosen.

They aren't the same price. If you want to talk about getting +1 for things look at SM.

The pricing system for GW is strange. Some units seem to have randomly cheaper upgrades e.g. Ravenwing Huntmaster gets a 7 point power weapon IIRC.

My mistake. Thanks for the correction.

I think melee upgrades in general (with a few exceptions) could use a price cut across the board.

Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

They should never have been able to take storm shields.

Martel732 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

They should never have been able to take storm shields.

Well if GW is known for anything, its to ensure that space wolves are almost never at a loss for shoring up potential weaknesses in units.

Martel732 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

They should never have been able to take storm shields.

They should never have had any weapons. The only one with the potential to be justified is the grenade launcher.

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

Not all of them are going to have Storm Shields. Enough shots and you'll be...okay.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tag8833 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tank Bustaz are about the only thing that's reasonable against Wulfen. You ignore the FNP and 4+.

You can only take so many though. They're arguably one of the best units that Orks can spam.

Who runs Wolfen without some Stormshields to tank for them?

Not all of them are going to have Storm Shields. Enough shots and you'll be...okay.

And in the context of the original post, Tank Bustas maxed out are 10 boyz strong. that is 10 S8 AP3 shots, 3 of which will hit and 2-3 will wound. So that is 1-2 dead wulfen. Of course that is all situational, since neither unit will fight each other in a vacuum, but the point remains. Tank Bustas by themselves can't stop a wulfen squad.

Tank Bustas maxed out are 10 boyz strong.

Tank Bustas cap at 15.

 warhead01 wrote:

Tank Bustas maxed out are 10 boyz strong.

Tank Bustas cap at 15.

You are correct, I never field them in groups that big. But lets go with 15 Tank bustas. that is 5 hits reliably with Rokkitz, thats 2.5 wounds against Wulfen with an invul save. SO 2-3 dead wulfen, it just took a huge expensive tank hunting unit that has short range weapons and 6+ armor.

Lobbas are enough to kill 1-2 models, lootas will kill another one, tankbustas will kill another one. Also, don't forget that you have a lot of fast chaff like koptas and trukks and he doesn't. So you can perform precision bottle-neck charges. I do it with bully boyz - you cut off >50% of incoming damage and deal 100% damage yourself. It evens things out.

But the thread is about how nobz are not nearly as good as this. You don't need much to stop them - all for the same price.

I have a squad of nobz to lead my warboss because its one of the GW warbosses without megaarmor and I didn't want a mismatch retinue.

I guess MANZ are better but I can't equip them with like my nobz, that is, big choppas. Making terminators take a 15 armor saves before their powerfists/thunderhammers go off is pretty substantial. And I guess at that point why not take boyz as they do functionally the same thing, but wounding on 2s and having 2 wounds helps a heck of a lot. Plus you glance vehicles to death a lot easier I find.

But yea the ork codex has some insanely overcosted garbage. Its a colossal failure that we don't have an ap 3 melee weapon in a melee centric army.

 koooaei wrote:
Lobbas are enough to kill 1-2 models, lootas will kill another one, tankbustas will kill another one. Also, don't forget that you have a lot of fast chaff like koptas and trukks and he doesn't. So you can perform precision bottle-neck charges. I do it with bully boyz - you cut off >50% of incoming damage and deal 100% damage yourself. It evens things out.

But the thread is about how nobz are not nearly as good as this. You don't need much to stop them - all for the same price.

So if you sink a unit lobbas, a unit of Lootas and a unit of tankbustas into targetting a single unit you have a good chance to remove it...5 models.

Anyway, I think the current problem is that the staff on GW thinks that SM, Eldar and Tau should receive special rules that give them bonuses across the board with little to no downside and that Orks and CSM and nids should receive Universal special rules that are situational at best and utter nerfs at worst.

Take a look at the aforementioned Wulfen special rules. Now take a look at the Nobz special rules, do a compare and contrast.

They need to sell wulfen - everyone has nobz and termies allready.

You think they'd need to sell sanguinary guard. But they suck.

I think there is an unwritten rule that the Blood Angels can never be as good at anything as the Space Wolves.

I feel like we are starting to deviate from the topic at hand and are beginning to just talk about why SW are CC gods.

Ork Nobz are horrible because for everything they do, there is a better, cheaper unit in Codex:Orks.

the one really good unique thing they can do(massed klaws on bikes) is questionable, because too damn expensive
(5 nobz(moar wounds), 3 klaws, 2 bp just because and 2 bigChoppas=185(nobs and stuff)+ 135 (FOR 5 BIKES ONLY!!!)(compare 4 regular bikers+nob and stuff=130).
thats ca one Knight(not a grey one) in points. if you think you need no bikes youll have t4 models(now we might need 4+armour) in a battlewagon that is equal in points. (or in a trukk, but we dont wanna do that because its not very clever.)
you better start getting fearless somehow.

if you really wanna go this way, you should not forget to add a painboy and the warboss to this unit. NOW you stand a chance vs almost everything, but have a unit that is about *500 points* you almost auto-lose the game should this unit be compromised in any way. not to mention saturation and target priority.
for 500 points you could play a buzzgob stompa.

and still- beware of anything faster and bigger(no cc invuln, no matter what), instant death, stormshields etc, not to mention psychic shenannigans or just tau/eldar shooting.

orks live by their numbers. more bodies=better
a warboss or regular nob with klaw and some 20odd attacks will easily kill any regular vehicle. for anything that needs more killing, better shoot with your megakannons first and finish it with some klaw(s).
or use stompa.