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Article: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/7/18/special-ops/


















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First impressions:

Generic: it's an imperial x-wing, except better. Better stat line and a rear arc, for the low cost of +1 point and a slightly weaker dial. But is that good enough to be viable? I'm not sure. It's a ship that doesn't do anything particularly well, just like the x-wing. It doesn't dodge arcs, it doesn't hit exceptionally hard, it doesn't tank very well, and the rear arc gimmick is probably not that impressive most of the time. The generics might see some use, I guess, but I think this is going to be a ship that is defined by its uniques.

Dial: finally, an imperial ship that doesn't get a god-tier dial. If you can refrain from comparing it to the broken dials for the TIE/fo and TAP it's not that bad. Compared to the "average" x-wing dial you get red 3-turns and lose the 4-k, but gain red 1-turns and 3-sloops. And if you're taking advanced sensors the red maneuvers aren't even that much of a penalty. But of course the TIE/fo and TAP still exist, so dial-wise it definitely falls short of the alternatives.

Quickdraw: still think it's a useless gimmick ship. You get a very limited number of retaliation shots, and the "damage yourself in activation to shoot early" gimmick means spending a lot of points on a suicide ship. And PS 9 is actually a drawback with the suicide version, since it forces you to take initiative if you want to shoot at other aces before they get their defensive tokens. PS 9 has some value as a "normal" ship, but I don't think the TIE/sf is the kind of ship where PS 9 alone is good enough to make a pilot viable no matter what their ability is.

Backdraft: and here we have the star of the expansion. Remember how ATC Vader is pretty good? Well, now you don't even need to set up the target lock to get your ~3.5 dice gun. The double tap now actually hurts a lot, and even flying away taking shots out the back is going to be pretty effective. It's just too bad this is the PS 7 instead of the PS 9, but hey, VI is always an option.

Collision Detector: it's zero points, but probably overpriced. That's a really situational upgrade in the same slot as advanced sensors and fire control system, two very powerful upgrades. Is it really worth giving up access to AS/FCS for the rare case when you can make a good boost/BR across an obstacle without landing on it? I doubt it. I suspect the only time we'll really see this is when you don't have points for AS/FCS and a free mediocre upgrade is better than nothing.

Sensor Cluster: the natural counterpart to weapon guidance, and about as useful. Is it worth spending 2 points for the possibility of using a focus token to convert a blank instead of an eye? The nonexistent popularity of weapon guidance suggests that the answer is probably not. On the other hand at least comm relay isn't a factor here, since you can't evade.

That dial is a bit disappointing, I'd hoped it would have a little less red than that. This only looks marginally better than the Bomber now. Love the upgrades though, can see those being fairly usable on the Tie/fo and Phantom.

How about that title card...


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also i can see the Collision detector getting a run on my phantoms

I don't know if I'd give up TLs from the FCS for the detector, even with the potential to surprise someone with a decloak over an asteroid...

Backdraft looks like a lot of fun, can't wait to try out the ship, the title is really good imo. Not sure what sort of squadron I'll fit it into, but I'm sure I'll think of something. Dial isn't what I thought it'd be but it's not horrible. Lack of an actual K-turn seems weird though, given the TIE/fo had the option to do one. Meh, excited for the release regardless, can't wait for the next preview.

Do you roll for obstacle damage when boosting, barrel Rolling or Decloaking over an obstacle?

I know that the tractor beam makes you take the roll, so I want to assume that the answer is yes, but I want to check with more experienced players to be sure.

You can't roll for damage as currently you're not able to do so. Having checked the obstacle rules the consequences are "when executing a manouvre that.." and I don't believe rolls, boosts or decloaks are classified as manouvres.

Tractor beam specifies that you suffer the consequences of any obstacle, so that's already self contained.

The 1-speed banks and straights are a godsend.

 Azreal13 wrote:
You can't roll for damage as currently you're not able to do so. Having checked the obstacle rules the consequences are "when executing a manouvre that.." and I don't believe rolls, boosts or decloaks are classified as manouvres.

Tractor beam specifies that you suffer the consequences of any obstacle, so that's already self contained.

i have a feeling that there will be a FAQ about this in the future.

That dial is a bit disappointing, I'd hoped it would have a little less red than that. This only looks marginally better than the Bomber now. Love the upgrades though, can see those being fairly usable on the Tie/fo and Phantom.

I'll take the red hard 3 in return for the option of a red hard 1 when I want it - it feels kind of B-wing ish, especially with Barrel Roll.

I think Echo found his new favourite toy. To be honest, as a '0' cost system slot, anyone with an empty systems slot will use it. Even a BBBBZ could get fair mileage out of it - if you take 3 debris markers for your terrain, you know your B-wings can pretty much ignore terrain as they fly (aside from stress, obviously).

Sensor Cluster/Weapons Guidance...... It's not an amazing option. I suspect it'll get more use if you've got the capacity to get 'extra' focus tokens from a crew slot or similar. It is slightly more valuable than its weapons guidance counterpart, I guess, simply because a green die has more blanks than focuses. You only care about these cards if you roll at least one blank and no focuses (because otherwise you'd spend the focus normally).

On a 3-die roll, the odds of getting at least one focus is up around 2/3, so Weapons Guidance has never been that great. The odds of getting at least one miss but no focus results is actually slightly better with a 2-die attack...but then you have the problem that a 2-die attack generally does bugger all unless supported by Crack Shot or Juke.

Defensively, your odds of triggering are much better - on average, a 2-die evade roll will get at least one blank and no focus results nearly half the time - and whilst a missed attack misses, an imperfect defence roll may still save you a shield - and the TIE/sf is quite a tough little kite.

It's probably a nice pairing with a Fire Control System on a generic - you know you'll always be able to spend your focus on an evade roll, whilst free Target Locks off the FCS support a B-wing-ish slugger.

I'd agree Backdraft is probably the nastiest pilot in there. I agree that he's on the low PS side, but as noted, this is more a 'heavy fighter' type, so for precisely the same reason Quickdraw's PS9 isn't amazing in and of itself, I don't think PS7 matters too much. Certainly the auxiliary arc and potential FCS giving target locks even on a red turn or segnor's loop means the usual art of finding a blind spot is a lot harder!

Zeta Specialist is nice - one point cheaper than a T-70 but one more than a B-wing, which feels about right for the capabilities of this thing.
I think that's probably the biggest thing about the TIE/sf - it finally gives the Empire a 'medium fighter' - something with a 3-dice primary weapons which isn't made of wafers (like the TIE interceptor) and doesn't cost the earth (like the TIE Defender) - theoretically you can fit four Zeta Specialists with a smattering of gear in a squad (you couldn't fit in an academy pilot at the same time, though). Of course, massed medium fighters aren't exactly amazing, but it's nice to have the option, and with the combination of Systems slot and Tech slot, they've got plenty of space to grow in capability

locarno24 wrote:
I think Echo found his new favourite toy.

I don't think so. Aside from Echo not being viable at all it just can't compete with FCS/AS on expensive ships. It's the kind of upgrade you put on a cheap generic because it's zero points and you weren't going to pay for that slot anyway. On a 40+ point ace you can afford 2-3 points for a good upgrade.

It's probably a nice pairing with a Fire Control System on a generic - you know you'll always be able to spend your focus on an evade roll, whilst free Target Locks off the FCS support a B-wing-ish slugger.

I think FCS isn't going to be very good here. The title encourages you to switch targets a lot and that minimizes the impact of FCS. AS, on the other hand, is great on a ship with lots of red maneuvers.

The title encourages you to switch targets a lot and that minimizes the impact of FCS

A fair point. Given the amount of red, Twin Ion Engines MkII might be a nice cheap buy, too - whilst quite a good knife fighter, it can be quite a big nippier than the B-wing.

 Peregrine wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
I think Echo found his new favourite toy.

I don't think so. Aside from Echo not being viable at all it just can't compete with FCS/AS on expensive ships. It's the kind of upgrade you put on a cheap generic because it's zero points and you weren't going to pay for that slot anyway. On a 40+ point ace you can afford 2-3 points for a good upgrade.

It's probably a nice pairing with a Fire Control System on a generic - you know you'll always be able to spend your focus on an evade roll, whilst free Target Locks off the FCS support a B-wing-ish slugger.

I think FCS isn't going to be very good here. The title encourages you to switch targets a lot and that minimizes the impact of FCS. AS, on the other hand, is great on a ship with lots of red maneuvers.

I have been getting some good use out of Echo. I still lose more than I win, but then I've only been playing for a few months. Just pair her with something a little scarier, and an Academy pilot to block/get in the way.

I like the collision detector. Debris clouds, and Echo sounds like a fun thing to try.

I can see potential for Sensor Cluster once an AG1 ship is released with access to the tech slot, so probably Kylo Ren's shuttle. Add in recon spec and it'll make for a durable ship.

Oh - one thought. I'm not sure how easily you can get use out of this, but someone might come up with an idea:

The Special Forces TIE is officially the TIE/sf Fighter in terms of its "in game rules name". Given the ruling on the T-70 X-wing and particularly the TIE/fo Fighter, that means a TIE/sf pilot is permitted to use [ACTION] header Elite Pilot Talents carried by Youngster.

I'm not sure how to use and abuse this off the top of my head, but since this is the first time Youngster's rule can be applied to a ship with a 3-die primary weapon and a systems slot, it's probably worth at least a quick review.

If nothing else, you can (if you want to play the rage/baffle trick) put rage on youngster and leave Quickdraw's Elite Pilot Talent free for something more classically useful.

Youngster with Rage would be decent - the three re-rolls would be really good and because they can shoot backwards (especially Backdraft), the stress wouldn't be as bad as for other ships. Also, you could use the re-roll twice assuming you have two ships in the back and front arcs. Also, if you add on FCS you'll be getting target locks anyway.

I was thinking the following:

Youngster + Rage

Backdraft + SOT + FCS + Ruthlessness

Zeta Specialist + SOT + FCS

Zeta Specialist + SOT + FCS

2 points left - maybe twin Ion thrusters on a couple of them?


Since Backdraft wants to fire both ways anyway, throwing on ruthlessness could add another 2 damage in a turn. FCS should help on the turns while you are stressed.

 Peregrine wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
I think Echo found his new favourite toy.

I don't think so. Aside from Echo not being viable at all it just can't compete with FCS/AS on expensive ships.

I think Echo is viable, you just can't use her like you would Whisper, and rely on ACD to let you decloak wherever. She needs to properly arc dodge when de-cloaked, which is fine given that she's literally the best ship in the entire game at appearing from unexpected angles. Collision Detector would allow her to do that even in confined spaces, which is very powerful for a zero cost upgrade.

 Smacks wrote:
I think Echo is viable, you just can't use her like you would Whisper, and rely on ACD to let you decloak wherever. She needs to properly arc dodge when de-cloaked, which is fine given that she's literally the best ship in the entire game at appearing from unexpected angles. Collision Detector would allow her to do that even in confined spaces, which is very powerful for a zero cost upgrade.

The problem with Echo is PS 8. That isn't enough in a world full of PS 8+ aces. Against Vessery/OLeader/Inquisitor either you give up the ability to arc dodge and let them counter all of your unpredictability with boost/BR, or you keep some limited degree of unpredictability but get absolutely murdered if they anticipate your maneuver. Against Fel/Vader you just die. Even if collision detector is somehow better than FCS (it isn't) it certainly isn't better enough to make up for PS 8 being a crippling drawback right now.


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Azeroth wrote:
Youngster with Rage would be decent

Ugh no. Youngster + rage is never going to be decent because taking multiple stress is really, really bad. You gain a decent increase in firepower for one turn at the cost of being dead next turn. And the TIE/sf is not the kind of ship that can alpha a whole list off the table and make the next turn an irrelevant question.


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locarno24 wrote:
If nothing else, you can (if you want to play the rage/baffle trick) put rage on youngster and leave Quickdraw's Elite Pilot Talent free for something more classically useful.

No. Now you're spending even more points on a stupid gimmick. If you really want to spend ~50 points on killing stuff in the activation phase take Deathrain and conner nets.

 Smacks wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
I think Echo found his new favourite toy.

I don't think so. Aside from Echo not being viable at all it just can't compete with FCS/AS on expensive ships.

I think Echo is viable, you just can't use her like you would Whisper, and rely on ACD to let you decloak wherever. She needs to properly arc dodge when de-cloaked, which is fine given that she's literally the best ship in the entire game at appearing from unexpected angles. Collision Detector would allow her to do that even in confined spaces, which is very powerful for a zero cost upgrade.

i play with Echo a lot of the time and i fully agree with everything you just said.

Vargas79 wrote:
I can see potential for Sensor Cluster once an AG1 ship is released with access to the tech slot, so probably Kylo Ren's shuttle. Add in recon spec and it'll make for a durable ship.

I don't see this at all. A 1-agility ship lives by HP, not green dice. Even turning that single green die into an automatic evade every time you roll it can only give you a marginal increase in durability, and you're almost always better off spending focus tokens and upgrade slots on offense. Where sensor cluster is "best" is on high-agility ships that depend on their green dice for survival, but between comm relay and the new "actions on red maneuvers" upgrade coming with the T-70 buff there's usually a better option on even the high-agility stuff.


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 captain bloody fists wrote:
i play with Echo a lot of the time and i fully agree with everything you just said.

How competitive are your games/opponents? I play in a fairly competitive group and if I ever see Echo on the other side of the table my only thought is going to be "thank god it isn't Whisper/Fel/etc". And I think most people around here would say the same thing.

Fairly competitive imo. our local area likes to experiment with different lists for imperials. We get tired of seeing Fel around here.

Where sensor cluster is "best" is on high-agility ships that depend on their green dice for survival, but between comm relay and the new "actions on red maneuvers" upgrade coming with the T-70 buff there's usually a better option on even the high-agility stuff.

I'm not so sure, but fair enough. My view - once you get to 3 or more green dice, the odds of not getting a [focus] to spend the token on normally get pretty low, not to mention (as you point out) that Comm Relay exists, and most high agility ships have Evade.

The 'value' of sensor cluster is directly connected to how often it'll let you spend a focus token that you otherwise wouldn't have. One agility 1 or agility 2 ships, that will come up significantly more (on a 1 agility ship, a failed evade roll is significantly more likely to be a blank than a focus, for example).

A 1-agility ship lives by HP, not green dice. Even turning that single green die into an automatic evade every time you roll it can only give you a marginal increase in durability

Agreed. It's not a huge increase in durability, but a guaranteed evade once per turn is nothing to sniff at - that's essentially the logic behind C-3PO, or for that matter the Evade action - because whilst you're only blocking 1 damage a turn, a big-ass ship should (hopefully) take multiple turns to bring down. You'll never avoid incoming fire completely, but stopping one or two damage per turn is nothing to sneeze at.

The Sensor Cluster is not as good as C-3PO or Isard - because it eats your focus token, so you either have to use it up or pay points for a means of getting a free one - but then it's cheap and sits in a slot that at the moment doesn't see all that much use.

How competitive are your games/opponents? I play in a fairly competitive group and if I ever see Echo on the other side of the table my only thought is going to be "thank god it isn't Whisper/Fel/etc". And I think most people around here would say the same thing.

We have a local aficionado who's annoyingly good with Echo. The key trick he uses (to get around the PS problem people always point out) is Decoy - Echo doesn't need pilot skill so much in the movement phase because so much is tied up into his decloak move, it's the Advanced Cloaking Device that really needs it.

But with Vader (inevitably) and a second ace, he can trade pilot skill to make sure Echo shoots first and gets his cloak on in the combat phase.

locarno24 wrote:
The 'value' of sensor cluster is directly connected to how often it'll let you spend a focus token that you otherwise wouldn't have. One agility 1 or agility 2 ships, that will come up significantly more (on a 1 agility ship, a failed evade roll is significantly more likely to be a blank than a focus, for example).

This is somewhat of a misunderstanding, I think. The value is not in the average damage prevented, it's in disaster mitigation. It's there to stop a single bad roll (with no eyes) from being a disaster, much like Palpatine normally acts as a last resort in case your green dice betray you.

The Sensor Cluster is not as good as C-3PO or Isard - because it eats your focus token, so you either have to use it up or pay points for a means of getting a free one - but then it's cheap and sits in a slot that at the moment doesn't see all that much use.

This is the key difference. C-3PO and Isard are good because they give you additional evade results without costing actions. They work if you're stressed, if you bump, if you need to spend your actions on offense or maneuvering, etc. Sensor cluster is a blank card if you don't have a defensive focus token, and a hypothetical 1-agility shuttle is exactly the kind of ship that is rarely going to have defensive focus available.

As for the slot not seeing much use, I disagree. Comm relay sees a lot of use on TIE/fos (and the ones that don't take comm relay can't afford to take sensor cluster either), and sensor cluster offers nothing for Poe (the only T-70 to see any real use) because you're almost always better off keeping the focus token to keep Poe's ability active and then recovering a shield with R5-P9. And once the T-70 buff arrives that "do your action before stress on a red maneuver" upgrade is going to be incredibly powerful on anything that isn't already committed to a comm relay. So, at best, there's a very narrow window where sensor cluster might be used on the TIE/sf before it becomes obsolete.

We have a local aficionado who's annoyingly good with Echo. The key trick he uses (to get around the PS problem people always point out) is Decoy - Echo doesn't need pilot skill so much in the movement phase because so much is tied up into his decloak move, it's the Advanced Cloaking Device that really needs it.

But with Vader (inevitably) and a second ace, he can trade pilot skill to make sure Echo shoots first and gets his cloak on in the combat phase.

I guess there's always that list, but it seems like kind of a gimmick list and its lack of tournament success seems to support that opinion. I don't think it's a very relevant factor in whether collision detector is going to be useful.

The named ones seem passable, problem is Imps already have a wide range of proven Aces, (Vader, Quis, O Leader, Baron) at around the 25-35 point mark, I suspect the new SF ones will be hard pressed to get list space

The upgrades seem a bit weak, Systems is already one of the strongest slots and I can't see a reason you'd give up Ad Sensors or FCS for the detector even at 0 points, the Sensor Cluster might be a bit of future design but at the moment Comms Relay trumps it and Poe doesn't need it

 Peregrine wrote:

We have a local aficionado who's annoyingly good with Echo. The key trick he uses (to get around the PS problem people always point out) is Decoy - Echo doesn't need pilot skill so much in the movement phase because so much is tied up into his decloak move, it's the Advanced Cloaking Device that really needs it.

But with Vader (inevitably) and a second ace, he can trade pilot skill to make sure Echo shoots first and gets his cloak on in the combat phase.

I guess there's always that list, but it seems like kind of a gimmick list and its lack of tournament success seems to support that opinion. I don't think it's a very relevant factor in whether collision detector is going to be useful.

ACD is kind of a gimmick anyway, all it takes is for someone to turn up with a PS10 ace, and ACD Whisper might as well be naked. It might be worth taking that risk with Whisper, but just because ACD is the best upgrade for him doesn't mean it's best for Echo. You yourself recognise that she doesn't synergize well with the ACD+VI combo, so why insist on kitting her out that way, and then claim she isn't good because it doesn't work well?

I've noticed a lot of people prefer Echo, probably because she has an interesting positional ability which is hard to quantify. She doesn't need to be able to counter Soontir Fel on her own, or ACD every turn, to be a viable ship. Even if ACD never existed, she would still be able to zip around cloaked, using Mara Jade to stress and outmanoeuvre other ships until she's ready to de-cloak and destroy, and she would still have plenty of squad-mate options who can deal with aces.

Collision Detector is likewise impossible to quantify: if you get to make use of it, and outmanoeuvre a ship amidst the asteroids then it's great, if you don't, then it's not: It depends on the situation and what you can make out of it (much like Echo's native ability). FCS is a great upgrade, and it's always going to be a solid choice on a Phantom, in fact I agree with you that it's probably a better upgrade (generally), but it has fairly neutral synergy. Collision Detector actually helps Echo to get more out of her native ability (which is why you take Echo in the first place), also at a remarkably low cost. So I think it's potentially a very interesting upgrade for her, perhaps not the best (as you say), but certainly a worthy alternative.

Looks like another ship that will need tie mk2.

 Smacks wrote:
ACD is kind of a gimmick anyway, all it takes is for someone to turn up with a PS10 ace, and ACD Whisper might as well be naked.

Call it a gimmick all you like, but it's the only thing making the phantom viable at all. ACD + PS boosting EPT is mandatory.

You yourself recognise that she doesn't synergize well with the ACD+VI combo, so why insist on kitting her out that way, and then claim she isn't good because it doesn't work well?

Because the alternative is even worse. If you're taking a phantom with anything other than ACD + PS boosting EPT then you're handing your opponent a free win. At least Echo with VI and ACD is going to make your opponent have to work a bit for their win, even if it's clearly worse than Whisper.

I've noticed a lot of people prefer Echo, probably because she has an interesting positional ability which is hard to quantify. She doesn't need to be able to counter Soontir Fel on her own, or ACD every turn, to be a viable ship. Even if ACD never existed, she would still be able to zip around cloaked, using Mara Jade to stress and outmanoeuvre other ships until she's ready to de-cloak and destroy, and she would still have plenty of squad-mate options who can deal with aces.

Uh, no. People use Echo because people aren't playing competitively. Keeping a 40-point ship cloaked turn after turn attempting to stress stuff means I get to throw 100 points of ships at 60 points of yours, then clean up Echo with whatever I have left. A perma-cloaked Echo with Mara Jade isn't quite zero threat, but it isn't far from that point.

but it has fairly neutral synergy.

Actually it has very significant synergy. The phantom is not a god-level tank ship like Soontir Fel or Corran. You have some defense dice but you don't have the sheer piles of defensive tokens or HP regen that makes tankier aces survive. Instead you have a 4-dice primary weapon that lets you kill stuff before it can kill you back. And FCS is an important part of that, it's a massive firepower increase that keeps you from having wasted turns of shooting. It's especially important on Echo because, unlike Whisper, you only get one token per turn. You can't spend a focus on offense and then immediately get one for defense, if you're forced to spend your focus on offense you're relying on naked green dice against any return fire.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because the alternative is even worse. If you're taking a phantom with anything other than ACD + PS boosting EPT then you're handing your opponent a free win. At least Echo with VI and ACD is going to make your opponent have to work a bit for their win, even if it's clearly worse than Whisper.

The alternative isn't worse. In fact, anything (including no upgrades) is better than deploying ACD against ships with higher PS. Speaking of "zero threat", a ship that cloaks after it has already been shot is a waste of points. You can achieve practically the same thing for 5 points less by not equipping anything, ergo: any upgrade that actually does something would be better. If you're only going to view Echo as a lame version of Whisper, then you're going to miss everything that's good about her.

Uh, no. People use Echo because people aren't playing competitively. Keeping a 40-point ship cloaked turn after turn attempting to stress stuff means I get to throw 100 points of ships at 60 points of yours, then clean up Echo with whatever I have left. A perma-cloaked Echo with Mara Jade isn't quite zero threat, but it isn't far from that point.

I think you are oversimplifying and generalising about basically "all of the strategy in the game". You're not going to have 100 points of "pure attack" on the table either, neither are you always going to have all of your attacks focused in one area... lots of good strategies employ flankers that don't hit at the same time as the rest of your force. Mara Jade is actually very dangerous, and ships loosing their actions during combat, can be brutal for defence and manoeuvring, it's quite a slippery slope. Then having a Phantom appear behind you when you can't k-turn because of Jade/PTL is also very dangerous.

And how are you going to clean up Echo with "whatever you have left", if what you have left is a Palp Shuttle, or any of a multitude of things that aren't able to handle Echo? The whole game is a struggle to tip those match ups in your favour. Your argument just assumes that you will always succeed in that, and so obviously you conclude you will always beat Echo, but the assumption is false. Sometimes, Echo will find her target, and blow the gak out of it, and all the theory crafting in the world won't matter.

 Peregrine wrote:

but it has fairly neutral synergy.

Actually it has very significant synergy. The phantom is not a god-level tank ship like Soontir Fel or Corran. You have some defense dice but you don't have the sheer piles of defensive tokens or HP regen that makes tankier aces survive. Instead you have a 4-dice primary weapon that lets you kill stuff before it can kill you back. And FCS is an important part of that, it's a massive firepower increase that keeps you from having wasted turns of shooting. It's especially important on Echo because, unlike Whisper, you only get one token per turn. You can't spend a focus on offense and then immediately get one for defense, if you're forced to spend your focus on offense you're relying on naked green dice against any return fire.

Well it's very subjective... Target Locks and extra attacks benefit every ship to some extent (it's a game where stuff shoots), which is why I described the synergy as "fairly neutral", but I take your point. However, I think I was talking about synergy in a more "ability specific" sense. I don't know if the Phantom enjoys FCS significantly more than Sensor Jammer, they are generally good things, but they don't mesh with Echo's ability the way Collision Detector does. That is all I meant.

 Peregrine wrote:

Vargas79 wrote:
I can see potential for Sensor Cluster once an AG1 ship is released with access to the tech slot, so probably Kylo Ren's shuttle. Add in recon spec and it'll make for a durable ship.

I don't see this at all. A 1-agility ship lives by HP, not green dice. Even turning that single green die into an automatic evade every time you roll it can only give you a marginal increase in durability, and you're almost always better off spending focus tokens and upgrade slots on offense. Where sensor cluster is "best" is on high-agility ships that depend on their green dice for survival, but between comm relay and the new "actions on red maneuvers" upgrade coming with the T-70 buff there's usually a better option on even the high-agility stuff..

I think the opposite, it has the least worth on high ag and scales up in value as the AG decreases. I'd also dispute that it's on a par with weapons guidance as a green die has an additional blank on it meaning sensor clusters should deliver a better return. But yeah, ultimately comm relay and the likely action-despite-taking-a-red maneuver tech upgrade are still considerably better propositions.

 Smacks wrote:
The alternative isn't worse. In fact, anything (including no upgrades) is better than deploying ACD against ships with higher PS. Speaking of "zero threat", a ship that cloaks after it has already been shot is a waste of points. You can achieve practically the same thing for 5 points less by not equipping anything, ergo: any upgrade that actually does something would be better. If you're only going to view Echo as a lame version of Whisper, then you're going to miss everything that's good about her.

No, this is completely wrong. Even if ACD doesn't give you the green dice it still lets you do a decloak maneuver every turn, which, as you've pointed out, is the whole point of Echo. And it also works against lower-PS targets. You might auto-lose against Palp aces with VI + ACD Echo, but at least you still get your ACD against u-boats.

Now, it may be the case that VI + ACD Echo is not viable at all. in fact, looking at tournament results, it almost certainly is. But that doesn't mean that some alternative Echo idea is viable or worth using, it just means that Echo is not a viable pilot. Taking bad ships out of sheer stubborn refusal to accept that they're bad is not a good way to win games.

You're not going to have 100 points of "pure attack" on the table either, neither are you always going to have all of your attacks focused in one area... lots of good strategies employ flankers that don't hit at the same time as the rest of your force.

Yes, many strategies use flankers. But those flankers are either cheap (IOW, not 40-point phantoms) or the kind of auto-win endgame ship (Corran, Fel, etc) that can fight just fine on its own. Echo is bad at this. Echo is too expensive to be a cheap distraction, and loses way too many endgame scenarios to be an effective closer.

Mara Jade is actually very dangerous, and ships loosing their actions during combat, can be brutal for defence and manoeuvring, it's quite a slippery slope. Then having a Phantom appear behind you when you can't k-turn because of Jade/PTL is also very dangerous.

Not really, because Mara Jade doesn't double-stress. Fel/Inqusitor/etc don't care about Mara Jade at all, and don't really care about your k-turning phantom with no dice modification or ACD.

And how are you going to clean up Echo with "whatever you have left", if what you have left is a Palp Shuttle, or any of a multitude of things that aren't able to handle Echo?

If I throw 100 points of Palp aces at 60 points of your list and lose both Fel and the Inquisitor while the shuttle is still alive then whatever, that's fluky dice and we just move on to the next game. The vast majority of the time the result of that 100-60 battle is Echo vs. at least one of my aces, which means your no-VI/ACD Echo dies.

Sometimes, Echo will find her target, and blow the gak out of it, and all the theory crafting in the world won't matter.

And sometimes Soontir Fel will die to a pair of z-95 primary weapon shots at range 3. That doesn't mean that you should rely on range-3 primary weapon shots from z-95s as your Soontir Fel counter.

Well it's very subjective... Target Locks and extra attacks benefit every ship to some extent (it's a game where stuff shoots), which is why I described the synergy as "fairly neutral", but I take your point. However, I think I was talking about synergy in a more "ability specific" sense. I don't know if the Phantom enjoys FCS significantly more than Sensor Jammer, they are generally good things, but they don't mesh with Echo's ability the way Collision Detector does. That is all I meant.

The problem with this is that you're looking at a very small part of the picture. Who cares if something has synergy with Echo's pilot ability, what matters is if it has synergy with the entire ship. FCS has a lot of synergy with Echo (and Whisper) even if it doesn't interact with Echo's pilot ability.

My current list is:

Echo with Recon Spec, FCS, Push the limit, and ACD
Carnor Jax with Stay on Target, Royal Interceptor, Stealth and TIE MK2
And either
Turr Phennir or 2 Academy Pilots.

Works well so far. Have almost beaten Palp shuttle/aces lists many times, bad dice were the biggest hurt, failing to hit 2-3 times with 5 attack dice is a bit rough, and that was without Palpatine interference. Not being able to use focus/evade against 5 dice hurts. Being able to hop asteroids while decloaking....even better, with the added benefit of being able to add wingman to Phennir, or up one of the Academy pilots to a Black Squadron pilot with Wingman sounds like a win to me.