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 Peregrine wrote:

Mara Jade is actually very dangerous, and ships loosing their actions during combat, can be brutal for defence and manoeuvring, it's quite a slippery slope. Then having a Phantom appear behind you when you can't k-turn because of Jade/PTL is also very dangerous.

Not really, because Mara Jade doesn't double-stress. Fel/Inqusitor/etc don't care about Mara Jade at all, and don't really care about your k-turning phantom with no dice modification or ACD.

I didn't say she did double stress, my point was that the ships can't k-turn, when stressed, either because of Jade/ PTL. So if the Phantom is behind, there is no way to turn to face it. Soontir Fel can only turn 45 degrees with his boost, and probably pull a green 2 turn if he knows something is on his tail. That allows Echo to decloak safely.

If I throw 100 points of Palp aces at 60 points of your list and lose both Fel and the Inquisitor while the shuttle is still alive then whatever, that's fluky dice and we just move on to the next game.

It's not 100 vs 60, that is a fallacy. It is 100 vs 100, if you are going to subtract points because Echo doesn't want to decloak in your arc one turn, then I could also subtract point for any no aggressive upgrades, like Stealth Device of Shield Upgrade, or any time you fail to line up a shot, but that's not how it works. While Echo is cloaked, she is still moving into position to attack.

The problem with this is that you're looking at a very small part of the picture. Who cares if something has synergy with Echo's pilot ability, what matters is if it has synergy with the entire ship. FCS has a lot of synergy with Echo (and Whisper) even if it doesn't interact with Echo's pilot ability.

Well I agree FCS is a really good upgrade on Echo... I quite like Collision Detector too though, and it costs less.

locarno24

I had never thought of using decoy on Echo...

 Peregrine wrote:


Ugh no. Youngster + rage is never going to be decent because taking multiple stress is really, really bad. You gain a decent increase in firepower for one turn at the cost of being dead next turn. And the TIE/sf is not the kind of ship that can alpha a whole list off the table and make the next turn an irrelevant question.

I disagree. The reason that stress is bad is that it prevents you from getting a line on your opponents ships by preventing red maneuvers and taking an action. The TIE/SF can get a line while stressed because it doesn't need to turn around to do it. Also, FCS is already giving you an action with the target lock. The twin Ion engine gives the Tie SF 6 green maneuvers to get rid of stress. As for getting a decent increase in firepower for one turn... alpha strikes can work.

Azeroth wrote:
The TIE/SF can get a line while stressed because it doesn't need to turn around to do it.

Have you seen its dial? You have limited greens and lots of reds, a double-stressed TIE/sf is a really bad thing. Even with the MkII engine you still only have green banks and a lot of red. Being unable to turn 90* for multiple turns is a really big problem.

Also, FCS is already giving you an action with the target lock.

Then why do you need rage, if you think that FCS re-rolls are enough?

As for getting a decent increase in firepower for one turn... alpha strikes can work.

They can, but the TIE/sf is really bad at it. Alpha strikes rely on efficient firepower: missile z-95s, crack swarm, etc. The TIE/sf is the exact opposite. You pay lots of points for the rear arc, HP, etc, and have few red dice for the point cost. It's a ship that's designed to play a longer game, exploiting its arc flexibility turn after turn. Don't try to make it into a crack shot BSP at 10 points more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smacks wrote:
I didn't say she did double stress, my point was that the ships can't k-turn, when stressed, either because of Jade/ PTL. So if the Phantom is behind, there is no way to turn to face it. Soontir Fel can only turn 45 degrees with his boost, and probably pull a green 2 turn if he knows something is on his tail. That allows Echo to decloak safely.

Sorry, but no. If it were as simple as "Fel is stressed and can't k-turn, just get behind him" then Palp aces wouldn't be so dominant. Fel is going to out-maneuver no-ACD/VI Echo just fine, and god help you if the Inquisitor is still alive.

And really, it just comes down to this: you can talk all you want about the theory of how Echo can be viable without ACD, but you're simply wrong. If it were a viable option then you would see it in competitive tournaments. Instead your proposed no-ACD Echo is nonexistent in competitive play. In the rare case where you see Echo at all it's with ACD and a PS-boosting EPT. So, maybe you've had some success in non-competitive environments and/or against weak players, but that's all you're going to get out of the idea. It's a dead concept if your goal is to win.

Does it really matter atm...? we have yet to play with it and experiment with lists and seeing how it actually flys.

I had never thought of using decoy on Echo...

It's an experiment that someone at our store tried and stuck with. I'm not going to argue that a named TIE phantom doesn't live and die by PS and advanced cloak - as noted, even if you don't get any benefit from the green dice you still get the free decloak move - but Echo's pilot skill is such that even Veteran Instincts still leaves you short of some fairly common pilots (Dengar, Vader, Fel, and VI-equipped PS8 pilots like Wes, Poe and Chiraneau).

 captain bloody fists wrote:
Does it really matter atm...? we have yet to play with it and experiment with lists and seeing how it actually flys.

Why haven't you experimented with it? Everything you need is available, if you have any questions about how something works and feel that you need actual in-game experience go play some games with the new stuff.

 Peregrine wrote:
If it were a viable option then you would see it in competitive tournaments. Instead your proposed no-ACD Echo is nonexistent in competitive play.

That doesn't actually prove anything, it could just be sample bias. I've seen lots of instances, in other games, where things were widely considered "underpowered" for years, until people realised they were quite usable.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, maybe you've had some success in non-competitive environments and/or against weak players, but that's all you're going to get out of the idea. It's a dead concept if your goal is to win.

Okay... Well I don't see any reason to continue arguing about it., and I guess it's a little off topic. We may have to agree to disagree, or perhaps we just have a different standard of "viable". One might also claim that the Poe+Stressbot list is the only viable list, evidenced by the fact that all the other lists lost to it last year.

Personally, I will continue to play with Echo regardless, and I look forward to messing about with Collision Detector.

On the subject of non-competitive and weak environments. I kept a link to a game that I played on the squad benchmark site a while ago, where Echo single-handedly destroys three t70s (including Poe), by quickly flanking with the de-cloak manoeuvre, and then Mara Jade to cripple the ships' ability to turn. I realise it doesn't prove anything at all, so there is no need for you to pull it apart, I freely admit it's not anything close to a competitive game. It is however the only game I'm able to share on here with you, so I would ask you to keep an open mind. And feel free to try and do the same thing with ACD Echo, or Carnor Jax, you'll find it's not easy.
Watch the replay here

I know I am back on DakkaDakka when I see the bird from hell circling the skies and taking shats on everyone else's opinions....

Jokes aside,
I think Peregrine is correct that in the high-tier meta, the stuff we see on Team Covenant tables for example, certain optimizations make for the strongest ships. This is either due to point deficiency, point-and-click strength, combos, or you name it. Everyone's mileage will vary depending on how "play-to-win" or how casual each person's community is. Min-maxing is as valid as any play-style, because "Why nerf yourself when there is a free godsword laying right next to you?". Just like how "Why not?" is another valid play-style. To each their own.

On-Topic:
The Tie/sf looks awesome, seems cool, and has some nifty cards. While it may not represent the "boy this thing moves" of the FA movie, it still has some strengths.

Will it see competitive/Covenant-equivalent play? I think so, the coolest toys will see play. Will it go far? Time will tell if Paul Heaver finds this ship's perfect niche.

 Smacks wrote:
That doesn't actually prove anything, it could just be sample bias. I've seen lots of instances, in other games, where things were widely considered "underpowered" for years, until people realised they were quite usable.

Sorry, but if your response to the complete lack of non-VI/ACD Echo in competitive tournaments is "sample bias" then I don't know what to say. This is a huge sample size we're talking about, with a lot of players trying very hard to win. And honestly, if it's as good as you think, why aren't you winning tournaments with it? Go top-8 at nationals/worlds and prove us all wrong.

One might also claim that the Poe+Stressbot list is the only viable list, evidenced by the fact that all the other lists lost to it last year.

You could, but it would obviously be a terrible argument. No reasonable person is going to claim that the single winner at worlds is the only viable list. A more reasonable analysis would be looking at the lists that make the top-X cut at major events (worlds, reigionals, etc), which will give you a pretty good picture of what lists are having success. And you won't find no-ACD Echo in there.

On the subject of non-competitive and weak environments. I kept a link to a game that I played on the squad benchmark site a while ago, where Echo single-handedly destroys three t70s (including Poe), by quickly flanking with the de-cloak manoeuvre, and then Mara Jade to cripple the ships' ability to turn. I realise it doesn't prove anything at all, so there is no need for you to pull it apart, I freely admit it's not anything close to a competitive game. It is however the only game I'm able to share on here with you, so I would ask you to keep an open mind. And feel free to try and do the same thing with ACD Echo, or Carnor Jax, you'll find it's not easy.
Watch the replay here

...

Are you serious? You honestly think that a game against bad AI is suppose to be convincing? Especially one where the bad AI opens the game by demonstrating how bad it is and flying 1/3 of its list into a random asteroid field on the other side of the table from the only enemy ship? This isn't evidence at all, and I'm rather appalled that you'd be willing to sink to the level of trying to claim it.

 Peregrine wrote:

Azeroth wrote:
The TIE/SF can get a line while stressed because it doesn't need to turn around to do it.

Have you seen its dial? You have limited greens and lots of reds, a double-stressed TIE/sf is a really bad thing. Even with the MkII engine you still only have green banks and a lot of red. Being unable to turn 90* for multiple turns is a really big problem.

Also, FCS is already giving you an action with the target lock.

Then why do you need rage, if you think that FCS re-rolls are enough?

As for getting a decent increase in firepower for one turn... alpha strikes can work.

They can, but the TIE/sf is really bad at it. Alpha strikes rely on efficient firepower: missile z-95s, crack swarm, etc. The TIE/sf is the exact opposite. You pay lots of points for the rear arc, HP, etc, and have few red dice for the point cost. It's a ship that's designed to play a longer game, exploiting its arc flexibility turn after turn. Don't try to make it into a crack shot BSP at 10 points more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Smacks wrote:
I didn't say she did double stress, my point was that the ships can't k-turn, when stressed, either because of Jade/ PTL. So if the Phantom is behind, there is no way to turn to face it. Soontir Fel can only turn 45 degrees with his boost, and probably pull a green 2 turn if he knows something is on his tail. That allows Echo to decloak safely.

Sorry, but no. If it were as simple as "Fel is stressed and can't k-turn, just get behind him" then Palp aces wouldn't be so dominant. Fel is going to out-maneuver no-ACD/VI Echo just fine, and god help you if the Inquisitor is still alive.

And really, it just comes down to this: you can talk all you want about the theory of how Echo can be viable without ACD, but you're simply wrong. If it were a viable option then you would see it in competitive tournaments. Instead your proposed no-ACD Echo is nonexistent in competitive play. In the rare case where you see Echo at all it's with ACD and a PS-boosting EPT. So, maybe you've had some success in non-competitive environments and/or against weak players, but that's all you're going to get out of the idea. It's a dead concept if your goal is to win.

Yes, have you? It can white turn 2 and with the ion engine, has 9 green manuevers - Target locks only work once on your target - this ship can shoot twice at two different targets. the rerolls would apply to both shots you would mostly likely only use Rage when you have two shots. You seem to be laboring under the opinion that you have to use rage all the time as soon as you are able, you use it to maximize the damage getting a focus and re-rolls on ships that you may not have that target lock on. This also messes with your opponent guessing where you are going - target locking on ship and then maneuvering so that you get two different ships into its two arcs the next turn.

This is a different type of alpha strike not seen in the game that you will have to use some thought to set up, not just point missle Z-95 at enemy ships. You have to potential to get 7 shots out of 4 ships in a single turn.

 Peregrine wrote:
Are you serious? You honestly think that a game against bad AI is suppose to be convincing? Especially one where the bad AI opens the game by demonstrating how bad it is and flying 1/3 of its list into a random asteroid field on the other side of the table from the only enemy ship? This isn't evidence at all, and I'm rather appalled that you'd be willing to sink to the level of trying to claim it.

I'm certain that I went out of my way to emphasize that I didn't consider it evidence, and that I was merely sharing this game because it is the only example I have recorded online that I can easily share. I asked you to consider that when viewing it, and try to keep an open mind, but evidently you are incapable of that, and instead decided to spite me with language like "appalled" and "sink to the level", while accusing me of claiming "evidence" where I explicitly stated "it doesn't prove anything at all" and "I freely admit it's not anything close to a competitive game". The fact that you completely ignored that (perhaps deliberately), indicates to me that you are not interested in trying to understand the other side of the discussion.

As for Echo's use in tournaments, it's obviously a very high risk/high reward ship that requires a lot of finesse, and costs a lot of points. It doesn't surprise me that people "trying hard" to win tournaments might prefer safer options. The fact that a specific type of person avoids it, doesn't prove it is an unusable ship. They might avoid it for other reasons, for example netlisting, difficult to learn, worried about a specific counter, or just because people like you claim it's "unviable" online. I agree that the situation is noteworthy... you would expect a bad ship to be avoided, and that is what you see. However, claiming that a ship is avoided, therefore it must be bad, is reasoning inductively, which is flawed.

 Peregrine wrote:
Sorry, but no. If it were as simple as "Fel is stressed and can't k-turn, just get behind him" then Palp aces wouldn't be so dominant.

There is nothing simple about it. Most other ships aren't able to move 9 ship lengths in one turn, or turn 180 degrees and end up back in the exact same spot without doing any red manoeuvres, so "just" getting behind anyone is academic... Echo can really do those things. Also I never said she was a counter to Fel... Soontir Fel is one of the best ships in the game, and one of the harder match-ups for Echo. But that doesn't mean it's the "auto loss" that you described (though with the ACD strategy it probably is).

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
I know I am back on DakkaDakka when I see the bird from hell circling the skies and taking shats on everyone else's opinions....

I think that's uncalled for. Peregrine is an excellent poster, and he's also very often right.

 Smacks wrote:

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
I know I am back on DakkaDakka when I see the bird from hell circling the skies and taking shats on everyone else's opinions....

I think that's uncalled for. Peregrine is an excellent poster, and he's also very often right.

Alright then, no need to white-knight. I was by no way discrediting Peregrine, if you continue reading my post you see me agreeing with Peregrine near-completely and defending both of your cases. If my agreeing with yall and mere jesting offends you, then I do not know what to say. That aside, you both are clearly going to be arguing this topic to the moon and back to no avail, however passive or aggressive.
My point still stands, *most ships see play in some shape or form depending on meta and everyone's perspective and mileage varies depending on personal experience regardless of where they feel their expertise is at.

Moving on:
Anyone else feel a sense that the tie/sf and the tie/fo might have swapped dials in regards to quality? Maneuvers aside, I feel like the Tie/Fo represent the movie-based Special Forces fighter slightly better. Thoughts?


*Emphasis on "most" and not all. (Sorry Syck Fighter, you are utter trash.... even if I enjoy spamming you with tractor beams for a 0% winrate...).

Yea, this ship I am not really excited for. It has some interesting gimmicks, but I don't plan on buying it. It seems like it is trying to do too much, but it is still going to drop as fast as an X-Wing. I would honestly rather take two Black Squadron TIE Fighter pilots with Crack Shot over any of the named pilots.

I'll probably pick up a couple to use since I mostly just play friendly games with friends.

I'm a little hazy on the timing (especially with the new FAQ) but can't Poe use his ability with sensor cluster to effectively guarantee 2 evades once a turn?

His ability requires the possession of the Focus, which changes the eyeball, is there anything preventing then spending the token through SC to modify a second dice?

This would mean that a focused Poe would be able to definitely generate two evades on any result other than two blanks.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm a little hazy on the timing (especially with the new FAQ) but can't Poe use his ability with sensor cluster to effectively guarantee 2 evades once a turn?

His ability requires the possession of the Focus, which changes the eyeball, is there anything preventing then spending the token through SC to modify a second dice?

This would mean that a focused Poe would be able to definitely generate two evades on any result other than two blanks.

It works that way, just like it works with weapon guidance. The problem is that you're almost always better off keeping the focus to modify more dice, and then spending it to recover a shield with R5-P9.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm a little hazy on the timing (especially with the new FAQ) but can't Poe use his ability with sensor cluster to effectively guarantee 2 evades once a turn?

His ability requires the possession of the Focus, which changes the eyeball, is there anything preventing then spending the token through SC to modify a second dice?

This would mean that a focused Poe would be able to definitely generate two evades on any result other than two blanks.

It works that way, just like it works with weapon guidance. The problem is that you're almost always better off keeping the focus to modify more dice, and then spending it to recover a shield with R5-P9.

Agreed Peregrine, a Focus goes a long way on a 3 Attack and 2 Evade ship. It will be taking hits, so using that Focus to remove an enemy ship on the offense, or using to survive an extra round of low PS shooting has been pretty critical for my opponents running Rebels. It is surprising how fast a T-65 or T-70 drops to a few Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot. Or just Soontir Fell

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Agreed Peregrine, a Focus goes a long way on a 3 Attack and 2 Evade ship. It will be taking hits, so using that Focus to remove an enemy ship on the offense, or using to survive an extra round of low PS shooting has been pretty critical for my opponents running Rebels. It is surprising how fast a T-65 or T-70 drops to a few Black Squadron Pilots with Crack Shot. Or just Soontir Fell

It's not the fact that the T-70 is a 3-attack/2-evade ship, it's the combination of Poe's ability and R5-P9. Spending a focus with sensor cluster to prevent a damage is effectively the same as spending it with R5-P9 to recover a shield, except if you keep it until the end of the turn you get to keep Poe's ability active. Other T-70s might get some use out of sensor cluster (at least until the "actions on red maneuvers" upgrade is released) in theory but right now only Poe is viable at all.

Ah, I getcha. I honestly see more Ello than Poe, so I tend to forget how well Poe goes with R5-P9.

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
Anyone else feel a sense that the tie/sf and the tie/fo might have swapped dials in regards to quality? Maneuvers aside, I feel like the Tie/Fo represent the movie-based Special Forces fighter slightly better. Thoughts?

i strangely had that thought as well. the movie SF seemed to absolutely fly across the screen and blistering speeds.

Movie magic haha. Of course the SF is going to seem badass with Poe flying it... he is the hero of the resistance (sorry bad joke).

I'm a little hazy on the timing (especially with the new FAQ) but can't Poe use his ability with sensor cluster to effectively guarantee 2 evades once a turn?

Yes, but - as noted - R5-P9.

It's possible that the higher pilot skill version coming in Heroes of the Resistance plus the Black One title might tempt you into using Push The Limit and BB-8 - not released, still to be seen - in which case Sensor Clusters might not be a bad investment.

It is making an already expensive build even more expensive, but it does have its benefits - breaking a target lock as a free action is a nice response to Omega Leader, a good precaution against Colonel Vessery (by taking away the person locking for him) and at the very least forces Vader to burn an action a turn to keep his advanced targeting computer switched on.

Spending a focus with sensor cluster to prevent a damage is effectively the same as spending it with R5-P9 to recover a shield, except if you keep it until the end of the turn you get to keep Poe's ability active

Agreed for the most part. There are a few niche cases where spending a focus via sensor clusters is better because it avoids "if this attack hits" triggers (e.g. plasma torpedoes).

Movie magic haha. Of course the SF is going to seem badass with Poe flying it... he is the hero of the resistance (sorry bad joke).

It is a bulkier 2-seater version, though. It's possible Poe was expecting it to handle like a Y-wing.....

In regards to the Echo- decoy list, I've played around with it a bit and it is definitely fun, but not super-competitive (IMO, so grains of salt for all).

The conclusion I came to (in playing regularly against ps boosted vader or Boba Fett & a Brobot) was that the problem is that Echo kinda depends on having a higher ps ace to survive- and even then, a well piloted ship can make the move at ps6 a real problem...

Some of my problem is undoubtedly that I like to play with varying lists and didn't devote the time to really learn to fly the list right. But once my regular opposition realized that killing Vader first (and Vader can be kinda squishy compared to Soontir for example) or the other decoy switcher (i tried Epsilon Ace for ps12 who can be remarkably annoying) leaves Echo very vulnerable.

I still think that decoy has some real potential in other lists, where a ps switch for shooting is handy but not necessarily essential (Vessery/ Ryad/ Glaive with Defender- D and tractor beam comes to mind) but I don't think it works well enough for Echo to give up a point and the ability to move at ps8 for it.

Just my 2 cents

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm a little hazy on the timing (especially with the new FAQ) but can't Poe use his ability with sensor cluster to effectively guarantee 2 evades once a turn?

His ability requires the possession of the Focus, which changes the eyeball, is there anything preventing then spending the token through SC to modify a second dice?

This would mean that a focused Poe would be able to definitely generate two evades on any result other than two blanks.

It works that way, just like it works with weapon guidance. The problem is that you're almost always better off keeping the focus to modify more dice, and then spending it to recover a shield with R5-P9.

I'd mostly agree, but could the Sensor Cluster be treated as a late game pseudo free evade, assuming Poe is badly shot up and has lost the R5 to IA ? Or are the conditions for that too narrow to be worth the 2pts ?

If you're going "no expense spared" then it's not a bad thing to have. It gives you the option to avoid being hit - and hence avoiding ion tokens, stress tokens, Ruthlessness/Assault Missile splash damage, Whisper getting her free focus token, etc, etc, and as noted, it might save you for one more attack if you've used integrated astromech.

At the same time R5-P9 is so good, and so cost-efficient I wouldn't plan on it being a cost effective use of points.

If you've not taken R5-P9 - because you want to take the combination of BB-8/Black One/Push The Limit - then it may be worth looking at more closely.

I think the "if I have 2 points and nothing else to get" argument isn't a terrible one, if you're content with your initiative bid and don't expect to get much out of the upgrade. But I'm not really convinced that a situational upgrade is worth more than the initiative bid. And in any case it's going to be a very temporary option, once that "actions on red maneuvers" upgrade is officially released it's going to be the end of any other options on T-70s.

I tried some small games today with Echo + Collision Detector, versus Soontir Fel, with an Academy Pilot thrown in on either side. I went with Echo, CD, Stay on Target, Engine Upgrade, and Intelligence Agent (I figured Rebel Captive would be a bit too tailored for a test game); Soontir Fel with PTL, Title, Stealth Device, Targeting Computer.

We played three games. I lost the first game, but I won the last two. Fel and Echo were actually quite hard to play against each other... It was difficult to get an angle on Fel, but really easy to bump him when we were facing, so most turns neither of us had a shot, to the point where it made me seriously rethink the viability of the Saboteur crewman.

Collision Detector was a bit rubbish, I used it twice during the first game to de-cloak across asteroids... we weren't sure if you're supposed to roll for damage, so we did, and annoyingly the Phantom took damage both times. Unlucky perhaps, but it's probably not ever worth risking damage in a Phantom, so meh! If it got to ignore damage then it would be a bit better, but I really missed FCS.

In the later games, I made better use of Stay on Target to outmanoeuvre Fel. The Phantom has every bearing at speed 3 (including K-turn), and combined with intelligence agent, it was quite easy to stay out of arc (or bump)... but still hard to line up a shot to kill Fel, with all his manoeuvres, and Stealth Device.

Engine Upgrade, was a bit wasted against a higher PS ship, I didn't feel like I got much use out of it, and it didn't mesh well with Stay on Target, I would have preferred something else in this particular game (probably Stealth Device or ACD).

Intelligence Agent, isn't my favourite crew upgrade, but it was pretty important in these games and worked well with SoT, if I knew for a fact I was against Fel, I'd be reluctant to switch it out.

So in conclusion... I don't really like Collision Detector. Peregrine was right about FCS (it's definitely better IMO). Echo wasn't at all an auto loss, but it was also hard to win with her (FCS might have made a difference there). ACD would have been good, on most of my turns I wasn't getting shot anyway, so it would have been nice to recloak, but not essential, and wouldn't have worked well with SoT, I still disagree that it's the only "viable" upgrade, Stealth Device or SPA would also have been fine, Engine Upgrade might have been more "worth it" against lower PS ships.

 Da Kommizzar wrote:
If my agreeing with yall and mere jesting offends you.

It doesn't, I just wanted to keep the disagreement about little space ships friendly and in perspective. No harm intended

My thought was something like Collision Detector on a Quad TIE Phantom list. Or maybe a multi B-Wing list. That sort of thing though would need multiple copies.

I''m not exactly up on the top tier metas. - What do people use on a Palpatine shuttle in the slot?

 Compel wrote:
What do people use on a Palpatine shuttle in the slot?

Usually nothing, occasionally a sensor jammer. So collision detector is going to be an auto-include for the damage prevention, just because it's zero points and goes in an upgrade slot you aren't otherwise using. You probably won't get anything out of it, but there's no reason not to take it.