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pm713 wrote: From the perspective of GW what is the difference between person A and Person B. Person A does not buy Alarielle because they play Death.
Person B does not buy Alarielle because they are protesting.
What is the difference?
To GW there isn't one, but really what does that matter?
GW isn't beholden to your whims anymore than they are to mine. The only difference between us is that I'm person A and you are person B, and GW will make whatever products they think are interesting or will reach their target audience regardless of what either of us want. It just so happens taht I'm enjoying a lot of their changes while you aren't.
Maybe, rather than asking how you can bully GW into doing what you want, you should instead start asking if you are still part of GW's target audience?
GW should be beholden to our whims. I am person C who is buying Warmahordes, X-Wing, and MtG for my kids now instead of my money going to GW. So yeah they should be going on our whims. GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warhams-77 wrote: 1(Sorry to say, I like WFB too, but it was in a bad situation)
Very well said except for this part.
Only put in a bad situation because of GW, not because people were protesting or voting with their wallets. So instead of fixing what GW screwed up they threw out the baby with the bath water. Just seem like the fans are being blamed here because something needed to be fixed. We are always told to vote with our wallet and we did. So voting with our wallet is our fault for scrapping Fantasy? I never played Fantasy but I can understand where they are coming from. Not their fault Fantasy became a bad game. All the blame goes on GW on how they handled Fantasy and 40K during those times.
At least we can agree Mr Roundtree will not be as stupid as Kirby was. Yes Kirby expanded the GW brand, but he also shrunk the sales of those brands they made. Now the AGE OF ROUNDTREE has begun.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/31 16:49:53
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Still haven't got round to de spruing never mind painting Overkill yet. This release may give me the kick up the backside I need Speaking of Overkill I wonder if the 40k rules for Cassius and co will be in the dex?
pm713 wrote: From the perspective of GW what is the difference between person A and Person B.
Person A does not buy Alarielle because they play Death.
Person B does not buy Alarielle because they are protesting.
What is the difference?
To GW there isn't one, but really what does that matter?
GW isn't beholden to your whims anymore than they are to mine. The only difference between us is that I'm person A and you are person B, and GW will make whatever products they think are interesting or will reach their target audience regardless of what either of us want. It just so happens taht I'm enjoying a lot of their changes while you aren't.
Maybe, rather than asking how you can bully GW into doing what you want, you should instead start asking if you are still part of GW's target audience?
GW should be beholden to our whims. I am person C who is buying Warmahordes, X-Wing, and MtG for my kids now instead of my money going to GW. So yeah they should be going on our whims. GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product.
Either you don't understand my point or you dont understand how businesses operate. GW is no beholden to your whims, my whims, Dakkas whims, etc. Period. Full stop.
As long as GW meets or exceeds their targets for sales and growth then thats what matters to them. The entirety of Dakka and Warseer could never buy a GW product again and it wouldnt matter so long as they still hit their targets.
There's a ridiculous frame of mind which seems apparent in a large number of "critics" in GW threads where because they can't find reason to buy GW products it is somehow a problem.
The reality is that stagnant businesses are doomed to fail because even if you want to stay consistent with what made you successful in the past, the world around you wont stop changing for your benefit. And for every change you make trying to grow your customer base it is inevitable that you will lose some of you old customers along the way. What matters though is that the customers to you are gaining are either greater in number or sales than who you leave behind.
So you said, "GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product." The truth is that they probably don't care, because their business is to sell their product, not to steal sales from their competitors. If you buy from the competition and them, great. If you buy only from them, better! But if losing you as a customer means gaining 5 new ones, then don't start holding your breath.
THAT is my point. And even if the sales of AoS dwindle down to equal or less then WHFB it doesn't serve to validate your demands, it only proves that AoS was not a sustainable product.
Maybe I'm misremembering but didnt SadPanda say something to the effect that its an entirely new kit and the rumors about a Sternguard upgrade sprue were bogus?
Is there any news whatsoever of the IG getting an update? The Cadians are starting to look a little dated now and (personal peeve) the plastic Leman Russ is still as awful as ever. Now a plastic Mars-Alpha Leman Russ or Macharius I could die for - oh well...
The Astra Militarum already received the update they're going to have for 7th edition in War Zone Damocles: Mont'Ka.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Warpig1815 wrote: Is there any news whatsoever of the IG getting an update? The Cadians are starting to look a little dated now and (personal peeve) the plastic Leman Russ is still as awful as ever. Now a plastic Mars-Alpha Leman Russ or Macharius I could die for - oh well...
Warpig1815 wrote: Is there any news whatsoever of the IG getting an update? The Cadians are starting to look a little dated now and (personal peeve) the plastic Leman Russ is still as awful as ever. Now a plastic Mars-Alpha Leman Russ or Macharius I could die for - oh well...
IG needs a gladius type decurion that gives them free dedicated transport.... then they will be tier 1 tournament codex again
pm713 wrote: From the perspective of GW what is the difference between person A and Person B.
Person A does not buy Alarielle because they play Death.
Person B does not buy Alarielle because they are protesting.
What is the difference?
To GW there isn't one, but really what does that matter?
GW isn't beholden to your whims anymore than they are to mine. The only difference between us is that I'm person A and you are person B, and GW will make whatever products they think are interesting or will reach their target audience regardless of what either of us want. It just so happens taht I'm enjoying a lot of their changes while you aren't.
Maybe, rather than asking how you can bully GW into doing what you want, you should instead start asking if you are still part of GW's target audience?
GW should be beholden to our whims. I am person C who is buying Warmahordes, X-Wing, and MtG for my kids now instead of my money going to GW. So yeah they should be going on our whims. GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product.
Either you don't understand my point or you dont understand how businesses operate. GW is no beholden to your whims, my whims, Dakkas whims, etc. Period. Full stop.
As long as GW meets or exceeds their targets for sales and growth then thats what matters to them. The entirety of Dakka and Warseer could never buy a GW product again and it wouldnt matter so long as they still hit their targets.
There's a ridiculous frame of mind which seems apparent in a large number of "critics" in GW threads where because they can't find reason to buy GW products it is somehow a problem.
The reality is that stagnant businesses are doomed to fail because even if you want to stay consistent with what made you successful in the past, the world around you wont stop changing for your benefit. And for every change you make trying to grow your customer base it is inevitable that you will lose some of you old customers along the way. What matters though is that the customers to you are gaining are either greater in number or sales than who you leave behind.
So you said, "GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product." The truth is that they probably don't care, because their business is to sell their product, not to steal sales from their competitors. If you buy from the competition and them, great. If you buy only from them, better! But if losing you as a customer means gaining 5 new ones, then don't start holding your breath.
THAT is my point. And even if the sales of AoS dwindle down to equal or less then WHFB it doesn't serve to validate your demands, it only proves that AoS was not a sustainable product.
Maybe I'm misremembering but didnt SadPanda say something to the effect that its an entirely new kit and the rumors about a Sternguard upgrade sprue were bogus?
This is probably the wrong place for this argument but I will bite. What Jack Flask has said is 100% right, GW had a decision, spend $50 and retain 1 customer or gamble and spend $100 and potentially gain 5 new customers, they also took the time to remove the issues with their IP such as the lack of expand-ability (I can't think of any new races that they could have released in WHFB), IP defensibility in court and accessibility (skirmish vs large battles, WHFB was prohibitive to all newcomers).
I am not saying that they made the correct decision or that they couldn't have done things differently but like people, businesses make mistakes and now they have a choice of giving up or working with what they have. It was a gamble but I think it will pay off in the end.
I think they learnt a large number of lessons with WHFB and story advancement in 40k will shake things up but I don't think they will go as far as WHFB which is good because while 40k needs a shake up it is not as dire as WHFB was. Plus, telling the same story over and over again is boring, characters never dying is boring (Game of Thrones showed us that) so move the story, kill the emperor and bring in new heroes (or old heroes returned) as well as new (or old) big bad guys. They need to maintain a good mix of nostalgia vs new blood, while its good to return all those old heroes/villians (aka primarches) from 30k they need to add new stuff that is unique to 40k.
With my track record, none of my models will be usable :(
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
So many posts about business models, fluff and AoS that being off topic in this thread seems on topic... oh for some actual news when I click in...
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
JohnnyHell wrote: So many posts about business models, fluff and AoS that being off topic in this thread seems on topic... oh for some actual news when I click in...
The news and rumours section these days is a lavish production of "Waiting for Sad Panda"
Fezza213 wrote: Plus, telling the same story over and over again is boring, characters never dying is boring (Game of Thrones showed us that) so move the story, kill the emperor and bring in new heroes (or old heroes returned) as well as new (or old) big bad guys.
That sounds just awful. There's nothing wrong with the setting as it currently exists. Except Kaldor Draigo. feth that guy.
JohnnyHell wrote: So many posts about business models, fluff and AoS that being off topic in this thread seems on topic... oh for some actual news when I click in...
You do realize that GW posted a preview video for Codex: Adeptus Astartes Deathwatch, right?
pm713 wrote: From the perspective of GW what is the difference between person A and Person B.
Person A does not buy Alarielle because they play Death.
Person B does not buy Alarielle because they are protesting.
What is the difference?
To GW there isn't one, but really what does that matter?
GW isn't beholden to your whims anymore than they are to mine. The only difference between us is that I'm person A and you are person B, and GW will make whatever products they think are interesting or will reach their target audience regardless of what either of us want. It just so happens taht I'm enjoying a lot of their changes while you aren't.
Maybe, rather than asking how you can bully GW into doing what you want, you should instead start asking if you are still part of GW's target audience?
GW should be beholden to our whims. I am person C who is buying Warmahordes, X-Wing, and MtG for my kids now instead of my money going to GW. So yeah they should be going on our whims. GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product.
Either you don't understand my point or you dont understand how businesses operate. GW is no beholden to your whims, my whims, Dakkas whims, etc. Period. Full stop.
As long as GW meets or exceeds their targets for sales and growth then thats what matters to them. The entirety of Dakka and Warseer could never buy a GW product again and it wouldnt matter so long as they still hit their targets.
There's a ridiculous frame of mind which seems apparent in a large number of "critics" in GW threads where because they can't find reason to buy GW products it is somehow a problem.
The reality is that stagnant businesses are doomed to fail because even if you want to stay consistent with what made you successful in the past, the world around you wont stop changing for your benefit. And for every change you make trying to grow your customer base it is inevitable that you will lose some of you old customers along the way. What matters though is that the customers to you are gaining are either greater in number or sales than who you leave behind.
So you said, "GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product." The truth is that they probably don't care, because their business is to sell their product, not to steal sales from their competitors. If you buy from the competition and them, great. If you buy only from them, better! But if losing you as a customer means gaining 5 new ones, then don't start holding your breath.
THAT is my point. And even if the sales of AoS dwindle down to equal or less then WHFB it doesn't serve to validate your demands, it only proves that AoS was not a sustainable product.
Maybe I did misinterpret you point. But my point is, what is business 101? Make a product that your customers want. If I am going by what you say, then GW doesn't care about their customers or what they want. Is that really how a business should work? Thing is, if you don't give what your customer want how are you going to sell your product? How is GW going to meet or exceed their target and grow? Thing is, GW is not growing at all now are they? Are they still meeting or exceeding their targets? We don't know that. So maybe that part is true but they are not growing at all are they? While I know GW doesn't care about me personally, I wasn't saying they should care about me personally.
My point was my money was going to GW. Now because of GW practices, basically not giving me what I want, my GW money has gone else where where companies are giving me what I want. While a lot of what you said is true, some of it is false. While you are correct GW is not worried about stealing sales from other companies, that was not my points. My point is other companies are taking my money that was going to GW and is not now. There is a difference there. Nobody is stealing anything. Other companies are not stealing GW money at all. If anything at all, it is GW who is pushing us away. Not everyone but it does seem GW has pushed a lot of us away.
So my point is, GW needs to start giving us what we want so our money goes back to them instead of other companies. This way GW can meet or exceed their target and start growing.
TL;DR
Remember as I said, business 101, give the customer what they want. If you don't, people will not buy. If people are not buying you are not meeting or exceeding your targets and are not growing.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
And what they told you is an individual customer doesn't matter, only if they meet sales goals.
So they are giving customers what they want, it just so happens you aren't a customer anymore.
Now, I wonder what they will do with ulthwe, maybe a new "core" option for their multiple formation detachment... Or perhaps a new detachment (mfd or otherwise) specific for the craftworld.
pm713 wrote: From the perspective of GW what is the difference between person A and Person B.
Person A does not buy Alarielle because they play Death.
Person B does not buy Alarielle because they are protesting.
What is the difference?
To GW there isn't one, but really what does that matter?
GW isn't beholden to your whims anymore than they are to mine. The only difference between us is that I'm person A and you are person B, and GW will make whatever products they think are interesting or will reach their target audience regardless of what either of us want. It just so happens taht I'm enjoying a lot of their changes while you aren't.
Maybe, rather than asking how you can bully GW into doing what you want, you should instead start asking if you are still part of GW's target audience?
GW should be beholden to our whims. I am person C who is buying Warmahordes, X-Wing, and MtG for my kids now instead of my money going to GW. So yeah they should be going on our whims. GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product.
Either you don't understand my point or you dont understand how businesses operate. GW is no beholden to your whims, my whims, Dakkas whims, etc. Period. Full stop.
As long as GW meets or exceeds their targets for sales and growth then thats what matters to them. The entirety of Dakka and Warseer could never buy a GW product again and it wouldnt matter so long as they still hit their targets.
There's a ridiculous frame of mind which seems apparent in a large number of "critics" in GW threads where because they can't find reason to buy GW products it is somehow a problem.
The reality is that stagnant businesses are doomed to fail because even if you want to stay consistent with what made you successful in the past, the world around you wont stop changing for your benefit. And for every change you make trying to grow your customer base it is inevitable that you will lose some of you old customers along the way. What matters though is that the customers to you are gaining are either greater in number or sales than who you leave behind.
So you said, "GW is not giving me a reason to buy or I should be saying NOT TO BUY other companies product." The truth is that they probably don't care, because their business is to sell their product, not to steal sales from their competitors. If you buy from the competition and them, great. If you buy only from them, better! But if losing you as a customer means gaining 5 new ones, then don't start holding your breath.
THAT is my point. And even if the sales of AoS dwindle down to equal or less then WHFB it doesn't serve to validate your demands, it only proves that AoS was not a sustainable product.
Maybe I did misinterpret you point. But my point is, what is business 101? Make a product that your customers want. If I am going by what you say, then GW doesn't care about their customers or what they want. Is that really how a business should work? Thing is, if you don't give what your customer want how are you going to sell your product? How is GW going to meet or exceed their target and grow? Thing is, GW is not growing at all now are they? Are they still meeting or exceeding their targets? We don't know that. So maybe that part is true but they are not growing at all are they? While I know GW doesn't care about me personally, I wasn't saying they should care about me personally.
No, business 101 is grow your business. If you can't grow your business then at least sustain your business while you start enacting ways that you can grow your business.
What you described is called consumer entitlement, and the crux of your issue is that GW is not providing you with what you want. Again, losing old customers because of changes they make is only bad if those changes dont end up bringing in more sales in the near future (or not-so-near future if they are working on a long term strategy, but for GW I dont see it).
My point was my money was going to GW. Now because of GW practices, basically not giving me what I want, my GW money has gone else where where companies are giving me what I want. While a lot of what you said is true, some of it is false.
Congrats? You do realize you are a single drop in the bucket of a multinational organization right?
While you are correct GW is not worried about stealing sales from other companies, that was not my points. My point is other companies are taking my money that was going to GW and is not now. There is a difference there. Nobody is stealing anything. Other companies are not stealing GW money at all. If anything at all, it is GW who is pushing us away. Not everyone but it does seem GW has pushed a lot of us away.
And why should GW care where you spend your money if they can have more customers spending more or the same than you did?
Every existing and potential customer has a cost. If the cost of keeping you business exceeded the benefit of doing so, why would you expect them to side with you?
It's the basic concept of weighing costs against benefits. If the products that made you patronize GW werent selling as what they predict these new products can, then congratulations you are no longer part of their target consumer group.
So my point is, GW needs to start giving us what we want so our money goes back to them instead of other companies. This way GW can meet or exceed their target and start growing.
TL;DR
Remember as I said, business 101, give the customer what they want. If you don't, people will not buy. If people are not buying you are not meeting or exceeding your targets and are not growing.
All you're demonstrating is a lack of understanding regarding actual business management concepts combined with the skewed perspective afforded by spending time in the echo chamber that is an internet forum.
Your entire argument is tantamount to a lactose intolerant person complaining to the owner of a grocery store that they replaced their soy milk with chocolate cow milk because 90% of the soy milk would sit until expiration while plain cow milk was continuously moving product.
Edit:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: And what they told you is an individual customer doesn't matter, only if they meet sales goals.
So they are giving customers what they want, it just so happens you aren't a customer anymore.
Now, I wonder what they will do with ulthwe, maybe a new "core" option for their multiple formation detachment... Or perhaps a new detachment (mfd or otherwise) specific for the craftworld.
So exciting!
Exactly, much more concise than me.
As for the new Eldar stuff, I'm really hoping there will be some more redone kits other than just Eldrad, but given the lack of anything from Sad Panda and Atia, I'm prepared to be disappointed.
Did either say though that there would be new Ulthwe rules or a supplement or something? Because I was imagining this to just be a boxed set without actual new rules attached?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 03:18:50
If only there was a thread, perhaps in General, that was specifically for discussing GW's financial performance and the merits of their various practices. Perhaps even one that had very recently been furnished with the yearly report for the last financial year!
Then we wouldn't have to pollute this Rumours thread with this pointless tosh.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote:If only there was a thread, perhaps in General, that was specifically for discussing GW's financial performance and the merits of their various practices. Perhaps even one that had very recently been furnished with the yearly report for the last financial year!
Then we wouldn't have to pollute this Rumours thread with this pointless tosh.
Fair point. I forgot what thread I was reading.
Nostromodamus wrote:Agreed. Despite multiple mod warnings this bollocks continues. I'm excited to see Deathwatch rumors, not pointless nerd bickering.
Oh heaven forbid you never go off topic. Also I thought Mods also said not to act like mods and do their job at one point as well. So you are just as bad as us. As a mod will remind you not to do this and hit the yellow triangle yourself.
That said, I will say no more on the topic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 03:38:38
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
Speaking of Overkill I wonder if the 
Orks
GreyKnights
Admech
