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In the fist of medusa detachment in the angels of death supplement, vehicles can gain potms. How would this effect a squad of whirlwinds? Would I be able to use potms and have each whirlwind target different units?

Isn't that the point of PotMS?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Isn't that the point of PotMS?

No sure it would work that way, since it lets you fire a Second weapon at a different target that the rest of the weapons on a given vehicle.

barnowl wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Isn't that the point of PotMS?

No sure it would work that way, since it lets you fire a Second weapon at a different target that the rest of the weapons on a given vehicle.

But each vehicle in the squadron has their own PotMS so each vehicle can fire at a seperate target with a weapon

 CrownAxe wrote:

barnowl wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Isn't that the point of PotMS?

No sure it would work that way, since it lets you fire a Second weapon at a different target that the rest of the weapons on a given vehicle.

But each vehicle in the squadron has their own PotMS so each vehicle can fire at a seperate target with a weapon

but only if every vehicle had to weapons. Split Fire would give something closer to this. Raw it looks like for a Whirlwinds with just the Whirlwind launcher it does nothing. On a squad of Predators you could fire the main guns all at the squad target then each one could aim a sponson at a different target.

By RAW I think Power of the Machine spirit only allows you to fire at a different target unit to other weapons if it's the one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted.

Making it rather useless for single-weapon as well as stationary vehicles, yes.

So then couldn't you but a storm bolter to get around that limitation?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So then couldn't you but a storm bolter to get around that limitation?

Well, you're already allowed to fire the Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher at full Ballistic Skill, so you'd only be able to use Power of the Machine Spirit to then fire the Storm Bolter at full Ballistic Skill, which seems to also only allow the Storm Bolter to be fired at a different target than the other weapons.

I think it's fairly well agreed that by RAW Power of the Machine Spirit isn't very well written at all.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
So then couldn't you but a storm bolter to get around that limitation?

Well, you're already allowed to fire the Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher at full Ballistic Skill, so you'd only be able to use Power of the Machine Spirit to then fire the Storm Bolter at full Ballistic Skill, which seems to also only allow the Storm Bolter to be fired at a different target than the other weapons.

I think it's fairly well agreed that by RAW Power of the Machine Spirit isn't very well written at all.

Why wouldn't you just make your storm bolter shoot at your initial target then use PotMS to fire the Whirlwind at different targets?

 CrownAxe wrote:
Why wouldn't you just make your storm bolter shoot at your initial target then use PotMS to fire the Whirlwind at different targets?

Because Power of the Machine Spirit only allows you to fire the "one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" weapon to fire at a different target:

"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

If it's not "that weapon" then it's not permitted to fire at a different target unit.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Why wouldn't you just make your storm bolter shoot at your initial target then use PotMS to fire the Whirlwind at different targets?

Because Power of the Machine Spirit only allows you to fire the "one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" weapon to fire at a different target:

"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

If it's not "that weapon" then it's not permitted to fire at a different target unit.

I don't see what that has to do with my question. Its not like the Whirlwind Missile Launcher is required to always be the main weapon.

So buy a storm bolter, reverse half an inch to count as combat speed, fire your storm bolter as your one full bs weapon and potms the launcer

 HANZERtank wrote:
So buy a storm bolter, reverse half an inch to count as combat speed, fire your storm bolter as your one full bs weapon and potms the launcer

The Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher is an Ordnance weapon, so you can't fire the Storm Bolter at full Ballistic Skill without using Power of the Machine Spirit.

ahh, didn't know it was ordnance. My mistake

 CrownAxe wrote:
I don't see what that has to do with my question. Its not like the Whirlwind Missile Launcher is required to always be the main weapon.

If you remain stationary you're entitled to fire all weapons at full Ballistic Skill so you can't use Power of the Machine Spirit unless forced to fire Snap Shots. Being an Ordnance weapon the Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher forces other weapons to fire as Snap Shots, on which you could use Power of the Machine Spirit, but you can't use Power of the Machine Spirit on the Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher because you're able to fire it at full Ballistic Skill.

If you move at Combat Speed you're entitled to fire one weapon at full Ballistic Skill, and all others must be fired as Snap Shots. Firing the Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher at full Ballistic Skill doesn't change firing other weapons as Snap Shots, but if you choose to fire another weapon at full Ballistic Skill and then use Power of the Machine Spirit to fire the Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher at full Ballistic Skill you're breaking the requirement of Ordnance weapons to have all other weapons fire as Snap Shots.

Since when does Power of the Machine Spirit require a weapon to be snap firing in the first place?

If you say that the "one more than normally permitted" part of the rule is why, then you could never use Machine Spirit in any situation since vehicles can fire all of their weapons always, just some of them will have to snap fire depending on how far the vehicle moved in the movement phase. Could then the argument be made for shooting after a flat out move?

 RageofBlack wrote:
In the fist of medusa detachment in the angels of death supplement, vehicles can gain potms. How would this effect a squad of whirlwinds? Would I be able to use potms and have each whirlwind target different units?

Yes.

Forcast wrote:Since when does Power of the Machine Spirit require a weapon to be snap firing in the first place?

If you say that the "one more than normally permitted" part of the rule is why, then you could never use Machine Spirit in any situation since vehicles can fire all of their weapons always, just some of them will have to snap fire depending on how far the vehicle moved in the movement phase. Could then the argument be made for shooting after a flat out move?

Mr. Shine already pointed it out and highlighted it.

Mr. Shine wrote:Because Power of the Machine Spirit only allows you to fire the "one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" weapon to fire at a different target:

"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

If it's not "that weapon" then it's not permitted to fire at a different target unit.

The statement of "this weapon" either points to the appropriate noun in the same sentence or a previous sentence in the same paragraph. The only Weapon that has been talked about in this paragraph is the "one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill"

 Charistoph wrote:

Forcast wrote:Since when does Power of the Machine Spirit require a weapon to be snap firing in the first place?

If you say that the "one more than normally permitted" part of the rule is why, then you could never use Machine Spirit in any situation since vehicles can fire all of their weapons always, just some of them will have to snap fire depending on how far the vehicle moved in the movement phase. Could then the argument be made for shooting after a flat out move?

Mr. Shine already pointed it out and highlighted it.

Mr. Shine wrote:Because Power of the Machine Spirit only allows you to fire the "one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted" weapon to fire at a different target:

"In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting."

If it's not "that weapon" then it's not permitted to fire at a different target unit.

The statement of "this weapon" either points to the appropriate noun in the same sentence or a previous sentence in the same paragraph. The only Weapon that has been talked about in this paragraph is the "one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill"

So you are saying that a Land Raider that doesn't move can't fire its Lascannons at separate targets?

How about this situation: a squad of 2 landraiders, each one only fires one TL lascannon, could they fire at different units?

 RageofBlack wrote:
How about this situation: a squad of 2 landraiders, each one only fires one TL lascannon, could they fire at different units?

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a 'unit' of landraiders anywhere, but in any case POTMS allows you to fire one weapon at one other target, per equipped model. So in your example a single unit of 2 landraiders could shoot up to 3 different units - one with their non POTMS weapons, and one different target for each POTMS weapon

Forcast wrote:So you are saying that a Land Raider that doesn't move can't fire its Lascannons at separate targets?

We are saying the rules are saying that a Land Raider can only fire its Lascannons at separate targets if one of them would normally be Snap Firing or otherwise be reduced BS.

RageofBlack wrote:How about this situation: a squad of 2 landraiders, each one only fires one TL lascannon, could they fire at different units?

Only if one of them would be Snap Firing or otherwise be reduced BS.

Keep in mind what the actual rule say, "this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons..."

I meant to say a squadron of landraiders. So what i am getting from this, is that if i go cruising speed i could then use PotMS and target 3 different units with my squadron of whirlwinds?

So by your logic I could just declare that I was just firing one lascannon at a given target, then I could apply PotMS and get +1 weapon than normally allowed at full ballistic skill, since I can't shoot more weapons than I declare, unless I have a special rule allowing me to do so (PotMS)?

 Forcast wrote:
So by your logic I could just declare that I was just firing one lascannon at a given target, then I could apply PotMS and get +1 weapon than normally allowed at full ballistic skill, since I can't shoot more weapons than I declare, unless I have a special rule allowing me to do so (PotMS)?

Power of the Machine Spirit allows you to fire one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. It doesn't say it allows you to fire a same-named weapon after other weapons of the same name have already been fired.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Forcast wrote:
So by your logic I could just declare that I was just firing one lascannon at a given target, then I could apply PotMS and get +1 weapon than normally allowed at full ballistic skill, since I can't shoot more weapons than I declare, unless I have a special rule allowing me to do so (PotMS)?

Power of the Machine Spirit allows you to fire one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. It doesn't say it allows you to fire a same-named weapon after other weapons of the same name have already been fired.

How is "same-named weapon" somehow excluded from one more? Does it say one more weapon of a different profile?

Because the rule requiring all weapons with the same name to be declared and fired together has nothing to do with the number of weapons fireable at full Ballistic Skill, which is strictly what Power of the Machine Spirit concerns itself with.

By your logic you could claim the ability to fire with one weapon in the Movement phase, or Psychic phase, or during deployment.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Because the rule requiring all weapons with the same name to be declared and fired together has nothing to do with the number of weapons fireable at full Ballistic Skill, which is strictly what Power of the Machine Spirit concerns itself with.

By your logic you could claim the ability to fire with one weapon in the Movement phase, or Psychic phase, or during deployment.

It does not "strictly" deal with Ballistic Skill

How many weapons can you fire? one more than normally permitted.

At what ballistic skill? Full ballistic skill.

At what target? CAN be fired at a different target unit...

Failing to see how you have you have a degraded ballistic skill in order to trigger the above. You can't use this in other phases because you follow "the normal rules for shooting"

 Forcast wrote:
It does not "strictly" deal with Ballistic Skill

How many weapons can you fire? one more than normally permitted.

At what ballistic skill? Full ballistic skill.

At what target? CAN be fired at a different target unit...

Failing to see how you have you have a degraded ballistic skill in order to trigger the above. You can't use this in other phases because you follow "the normal rules for shooting

And the normal rules for shooting require all same-named weapon groups to be chosen and fired together.

You are twisting the wording of Power of the Machine Spirit. It does not say you may fire one more weapon than is normally permitted, and that you may fire it at full Ballistic Skill. It says that you may fire one more weapon at full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted.

What that means is it does not increase the number of weapons you can fire simpliciter. It increases the number of weapons specifically at full Ballistic Skill you may fire.

 RageofBlack wrote:
I meant to say a squadron of landraiders. So what i am getting from this, is that if i go cruising speed i could then use PotMS and target 3 different units with my squadron of whirlwinds?

Correct. It's arguable you could even go flat out.