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I ve got an Ultramarines army with about 40 of these I converted. They're really cool and I enjoy using them. But, they are so monstrously expensive in terms of points. Especially when Invictari are so cheap in comparison. Theres like a few points difference, yet you get extra WS, attack, an AP 2 axe, extra leadership and artificer armor.

Remember: in 30k Fluffy>Crunchy seems to be a common, and well loved, mind set.

Breachers with swords are entertaining: a squad of 20 will melt tactical squads and anything else that doesn't have a 2+ save. 41 AP: 3 attacks on the charge is nothing to scoff at. Another + is that in the breachers, you can leave 1 in 5 with a special weapon (a graviton gun to make sure you get off the charge, melta to eat terminators and vehicles, etc.)

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember: in 30k Fluffy>Crunchy seems to be a common, and well loved, mind set.

Breachers with swords are entertaining: a squad of 20 will melt tactical squads and anything else that doesn't have a 2+ save. 41 AP: 3 attacks on the charge is nothing to scoff at. Another + is that in the breachers, you can leave 1 in 5 with a special weapon (a graviton gun to make sure you get off the charge, melta to eat terminators and vehicles, etc.)

The problem is getting across the board and the amount of points to get that unit on the field. I mean I think its like, 480pts for a blob of 20. My general experience with them is truging cross the board and being mulched by Iron Havocs, quad guns and then counter attacked by Castellax or terminators. They have a huge issue with Contemptor dreads. They have a huge issue with the plethora of 2+ saves. Yet its as easy to kill them as a tactical marine. Even when they have found an appropriate target like a unit of Breachers, they tend to get more kills with their bolt pistols than their swords and there no guarantee they can win even that sort of fight especially post shooting casualties.

Then you have things like poor weapon skill, low number of attacks due to breacher shield restrictions and low wounds chance to get a really sub par unit.

I have tried rocking them in Land Raiders but then I am sinking even more points and losing the cost saving of big squads and have to take less of them. I mean I had one battle versus Night Lords where Sevatar kept me off an objective by killing my Breacher team and I couldn't help but think "those could be Invictari and I could easily kill him". So it has cost me a few games.

If you use them with girly man to get counter attack they should be awesome.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember: in 30k Fluffy>Crunchy seems to be a common, and well loved, mind set.

Tell that to the people fielding 9+ quad mortars.

This is a super-competitive game like any other.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember: in 30k Fluffy>Crunchy seems to be a common, and well loved, mind set.

Tell that to the people fielding 9+ quad mortars.

This is a super-competitive game like any other.

names and real-life examples? 'cause even though the other thread going on revolves around it, most all of that discussion is not based on actual evidence, but a "they COULD do this!" argument. Additionally, as that thread shows: doing exactly that (spamming power units) is massivley frowned upon.

I'm not saying the game can't be competitive, but for the most part, fluff wins out.

I dont think ive ever even read of someone doing such a thing, and no matter what breachers are mint. Assume someone didnt go for phosphex on the quad mortars and all of a sudden you have a massive unit rerolling failed armour saves and hopefully taking fnp.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember: in 30k Fluffy>Crunchy seems to be a common, and well loved, mind set.

Breachers with swords are entertaining: a squad of 20 will melt tactical squads and anything else that doesn't have a 2+ save. 41 AP: 3 attacks on the charge is nothing to scoff at. Another + is that in the breachers, you can leave 1 in 5 with a special weapon (a graviton gun to make sure you get off the charge, melta to eat terminators and vehicles, etc.)

The problem is getting across the board and the amount of points to get that unit on the field. I mean I think its like, 480pts for a blob of 20. My general experience with them is truging cross the board and being mulched by Iron Havocs, quad guns and then counter attacked by Castellax or terminators. They have a huge issue with Contemptor dreads. They have a huge issue with the plethora of 2+ saves. Yet its as easy to kill them as a tactical marine. Even when they have found an appropriate target like a unit of Breachers, they tend to get more kills with their bolt pistols than their swords and there no guarantee they can win even that sort of fight especially post shooting casualties.

Then you have things like poor weapon skill, low number of attacks due to breacher shield restrictions and low wounds chance to get a really sub par unit.

I have tried rocking them in Land Raiders but then I am sinking even more points and losing the cost saving of big squads and have to take less of them. I mean I had one battle versus Night Lords where Sevatar kept me off an objective by killing my Breacher team and I couldn't help but think "those could be Invictari and I could easily kill him". So it has cost me a few games.

Breachers are one of the better anti-quad mortar infantry units (since they get to reroll their armour saves on every shot barring the phosphex shots). WS: 4 isn't poor, it's normal, and methinks that you've got some silly luck with your pistols if they are killing more marines than your swords (3+4+ w/ save vs. 4+4+ w/ no save) As for dealing with contemptors and castellax: that's where you ability to take special weapons and melta bombs come in. I do get your point that they are expensive, that's part of the reason why I tend to field mine as 10 man squads, but the value of a 20-man squad comes in as a great shield to slow down enemy units (grav) take out vehicles (melta + melta bombs) and w/ power swords, basically become a better counter vs. tactical squads, reavers, rampagers (or whatever the power armour WE unit is), and almost all special assault units (barring UM specials who are basically a "we are slightly above average in every way, loosers" kinda army. Dammit GW )

If the day comes when 40k gets breachers im gonna feel sorry for a lot of people.

 King Amroth wrote:
If the day comes when 40k gets breachers im gonna feel sorry for a lot of people.

already have them. Space Marine Seige assault list has an option for 'seige manacles' which look like breacher shields, act like breacher shields, but are not called breacher shields

You can't re roll an AP3 armour save...

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
You can't re roll an AP3 armour save...

Okay? Not all blasts and templates ARE AP: 3. Lots are, but not all. A big 'fear' is quad mortars, who only have 1 of their ammo types set at AP: 3, and that one is locked behind an HQ point wall. The breachers getting a reroll on their saves against said quad mortars IS a pretty big deal. it also slows down whirlwind artillery batteries, flamer and heavy flamer support squads, and frag missiles (if any non-DG even bother with those).

ANOTHER few buffs that I mentioned before: Defensive grenades shut down a huge number of special rules tied to deadly CC squads, Access to special weapons means that they can be kitted out to either 1) slow the enemy (and be a HUGE threat to vehicles w/ haywire), 2) can be threats to terminators with Meltas, 3) (if you want to) can take lascutters and threaten vehicles/terminators in close combat as well.

Are they perfect? No. Are they expensive? Yup. Are they terrible? Nope.

A final note: stop comparing them to Suzerians. By your same logic Cataphractii terminators are crap because Death Guard Grave Wardens are things. OR Assault marines are terrible because the RG special version. IF you compare the basic 'scoring troop' to an elite unit, the scoring troop IS gonna seem worse.

for about the same price as 20 suzerians, you can have 30 breachers, with 6 melta's between them AND loosing 3 breachers vs. loosing 3 suzerian isn't nearly as much of a loss. While the suzerians can take infantry, PRAY a contemptor doesn't decide to go elite hunting.

 Brennonjw wrote:


A final note: stop comparing them to Suzerians..

That is by far the most important thing, Breachers and Suzies fit different roles on the battlefield and thats how both choices should be approached, as different units.

Don't forget, breachers can take capture points, suzies can't, breachers have better special weapon options, and you don't have to give ALL of them swords. Just the ones that you think will make it into hand to hand. If they're all hopping out of an assault transport, then they all will, fine, but if they're podding in or doing some foot slogging, you'll take some casualties.

Every suzy that drops is maxed out, whereas you can have a line of cheap breachers with no upgrades up front to drop to enemy fire while your special weapon and sword guys survive to do some real damage.

 Walnuts wrote:
Don't forget, breachers can take capture points, suzies can't, breachers have better special weapon options, and you don't have to give ALL of them swords. Just the ones that you think will make it into hand to hand. If they're all hopping out of an assault transport, then they all will, fine, but if they're podding in or doing some foot slogging, you'll take some casualties.

Every suzy that drops is maxed out, whereas you can have a line of cheap breachers with no upgrades up front to drop to enemy fire while your special weapon and sword guys survive to do some real damage.

Suzies have Implacable Advance, they can take Capture Points.

Yeah Invictari are scoring anyway.

Most of the nasty close combat squads I fight are either monstrous creatures or have a 2 plus save. If I was fighting World Eaters assault marines then maybe.

Well it matters because Ultra have the option to take either sword breachers or invictari and the latter is simply vastly better in every regard for a very small points difference. I don't have the points so I can't test your 2 to 3 rule but believe me, 2 Invictari is a lot better than three sword breachers.

You get a WS5, an AP axe that auto wounds on sixes to hit, 2+ armour, extra leadership, an additional attack and a further buff to nearby units. So straight away 2 Invictari put out more attacks than three breachers, those attacks are more likely to hit and damage things. Plus they are vastly more survivable.

So their only advantage is access to special weapons.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Remember: in 30k Fluffy>Crunchy seems to be a common, and well loved, mind set.

Tell that to the people fielding 9+ quad mortars.

This is a super-competitive game like any other.

Well, maybe your local meta sucks, but for the most part, I've heard WAAC players stick to 40K.

one thing they do have going for them is they can have an apothecary attached to them (because apothecaries can only be attached to certain squads...) unlike suizerains.

And on the filpside they look like badass roman legionaries, which fits the ultramarines theme well

 Ultramarine Vindictus wrote:
one thing they do have going for them is they can have an apothecary attached to them (because apothecaries can only be attached to certain squads...) unlike suizerains.

Apparently the new Legion book ditches the list restriction, Apothecaries can now join any non-Terminator unit.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Yeah Invictari are scoring anyway.

Most of the nasty close combat squads I fight are either monstrous creatures or have a 2 plus save. If I was fighting World Eaters assault marines then maybe.

Well it matters because Ultra have the option to take either sword breachers or invictari and the latter is simply vastly better in every regard for a very small points difference. I don't have the points so I can't test your 2 to 3 rule but believe me, 2 Invictari is a lot better than three sword breachers.

You get a WS5, an AP axe that auto wounds on sixes to hit, 2+ armour, extra leadership, an additional attack and a further buff to nearby units. So straight away 2 Invictari put out more attacks than three breachers, those attacks are more likely to hit and damage things. Plus they are vastly more survivable.

So their only advantage is access to special weapons.

The right special weapon in the right place can often times help you win the day. But I'd say unless you want to do a Highly Survivable very Roman themes CC Ultramarine Army, go with Bolters on the Breachers and use them for MSU for the shooting buffs from Interlocking Tactics. Or since Interlocking Tactics allows units to re-roll charge into combats where Ultras are already fighting use your Sword Breachers to help make sure the Suzies get into Combat.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:
Don't forget, breachers can take capture points, suzies can't, breachers have better special weapon options, and you don't have to give ALL of them swords. Just the ones that you think will make it into hand to hand. If they're all hopping out of an assault transport, then they all will, fine, but if they're podding in or doing some foot slogging, you'll take some casualties.

Every suzy that drops is maxed out, whereas you can have a line of cheap breachers with no upgrades up front to drop to enemy fire while your special weapon and sword guys survive to do some real damage.

Suzies have Implacable Advance, they can take Capture Points.

Whoopsth!

Well, then, okay, yes, a 25pt suzi is better than a 20pt sword breacher, BUT

breachers can get up to 20 man squad size, which combos better with apothecaries, librarians, chaplains, pretty much anything that buffs a unit. You're getting double bang for your buck. Also breachers have special weapons, and hardened armor, and you could still do a large squad where it's like, the five or ten you expect to die are naked 15 point breachers, and the few you expect to survive to do damage are carrying special weapons and swords. They're not a must take unit, but they're not useless.
Also they can be compulsory troops, so that too.