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Hey everyone,

as the title says, i'm in dire need for a Support-ish unit that'll fit into a Assault-based Chaos Space Marine Army. I know that some people
might say to drop the CSM's all together and play something else - but i really like my heretics quite a lot. I'm not really a 40k-player per se,
most of the time i'm more into painting / converting etc. so my experience with Fire support for my Army is a bit lackluster. I've tried some units
like Vindicators (which were great, when they had the chance to fire), Maulerfiends (which were underwhelming to be quite honest) and
Obliterators (which were OK, but didn't really fitted into the army).

I wanted to try out Heldrake(s), but i don't know if its sensible to play them as pairs like Vindicators or single or at all. Same goes for Forgefiends,
Havocs etc.

I often used a Land Raider to bring my Melee-centered unit into combat, although it dies quite often by doing so or even before being able
to do so. I used a Dreadclaw recently which actually went quite well, but it feels strange to have your entire army on the other side of the table
while your Choppy Unit is 'in there'. I need something that either can make things happen, maybe move fast or is dangerous enough to make
people really shoot en masse on that target rather than the Dreadclaw.

That depends. How well do you want to do?

If looking for shooting, the Predator from Imperial armor 13 seems to me very good though I haven't tried it yet : 105 points for an AV13 vehicule with plasma destroyer (3 small blasts s7 ap2 at 36'', without Gets hot). People will want it dead. Note that you'll need a Warpsmith or a Malefic Sorcerer in order to use it since it's an Infernal relic.
In general, artillery units from Renegades&Heretics are cheap but very effective and very resilient. you can find whatever you want, options are numerous. The opponent will need a lot of firepower to destroy them since they are T7, drawing away fire from your assault units.

Rapier weapons batteries are excellent.

Rapier weapons batteries are excellent.

Yop, best stand alone shooting unit in the game imo.

The Rapier Battery sounds good; What about the Heldrake - is it worth taking one / two?

I personally love Heldrakes, they are excellent against MEQ infantry. I heard the new flyer rules nerfed them a bit, but I haven't read them and don't really understand how that worked....so maybe some research is recommended. Flyer vs. flyer they aren't the best, but flyer vs. infantry/MC, they are excellent.

Rapiers or a chaos knight. Knight can also fill a role of a decent tarpitter or an invisible stomper together with being decently durable and shooty.

Is IA:13 an option? Of so Rapier batteries are very hard to beat for points cost and reliability. If it's just general fire support check our the fire raptor. Just played against one the other day. It cleared the sky's of my talons and accompanying raven, then proceeded to pepper the hell out of everything else on the board. Mind you it came on turn 3 and my dice were on fire. Had those factors not been there, it probably would've hurt a lot more than it did. It comes stock with AC so that's pretty cool too.

Often overlooked is a lascannon decked storm eagle. It's basically a chaos vendetta (transports 10), that is also an assault transport with large blast templates and AC. It's a whopping 285 points so unless you're playing against dedicated interceptors or Tau I'd definitely try it out.

Absent FW, Forgefeinds are pretty legit (I run the autocannons with the mouth PC added on) but a lot of people prefer mauler feinds. Forge aren't bad at all for fire support. If you're playing a gunline army or bike army that relies on toughness and /or cover, Hellchickens can still be we their weight in gold. I also highly recommend Demon Knights or Renegade ones. Demon Knights are more survivable and nastier in CC, but the renegades have equivalent or better firepower. Last but not least there are Nurgle or tzeentch obliterators. A must have in almost any CSM list IMO.

Definitely not a fan of havoc outside of very small point games.

I'm currently running the 'Brethren of the Dark Covenant' formation (Dark Apostle, 1 group of possessed, 1-2 groups of Marines, FnP + Zealot in a 12" aura) - with MoN the Possessed are quite tanky (3+/5++, FNP (or 3+/3++, FNP at T5)) and let them run over the field (or use a Dreadclaw).
Other than that i use Bikes & Spawns for fast, Blobs of Cultist for my troop choice (or Noise Marines)..

The Knight is one thing i have thought about, but i'm scared people might be pissed if you bring one - especially in a friendly game. The Heldrake(s) was something i have thought about as well - firstly, i'd love to convert one - but on the tabletop i'm not quite sure how they perform.
Forgefiends.. i don't know, i think they're expensive for what they can do - at least in my mind. Maybe i should test them - good thing my Fiend's are magnetized^^

IA 13 & Aeronautica is available, but i don't like the prize range of Forge World.

Edit: I probably need something to open up Tanks & Boxes from a decent range. I think about how i could scratch-build/kitbash those Rapier Weapons things.

Forge feinds are pretty great at stacking a lot of wounds on infantry and equally great at stripping HPs off of vehicles. However if you need a can opener a rapier battery and obits are hard to beat. Ever try using units of 3 or 4 combi-melta terminators. They'll almost certainly pop the box and I'd you mark them as Khorne (waste of points, but sometimes helps with 4 man units) they'll serve as a good distraction to shift fire off of your main assault units.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Hey everyone,

as the title says, i'm in dire need for a Support-ish unit that'll fit into a Assault-based Chaos Space Marine Army. I know that some people
might say to drop the CSM's all together and play something else - but i really like my heretics quite a lot. I'm not really a 40k-player per se,
most of the time i'm more into painting / converting etc. so my experience with Fire support for my Army is a bit lackluster. I've tried some units
like Vindicators (which were great, when they had the chance to fire), Maulerfiends (which were underwhelming to be quite honest) and
Obliterators (which were OK, but didn't really fitted into the army).

I wanted to try out Heldrake(s), but i don't know if its sensible to play them as pairs like Vindicators or single or at all. Same goes for Forgefiends,
Havocs etc.

I often used a Land Raider to bring my Melee-centered unit into combat, although it dies quite often by doing so or even before being able
to do so. I used a Dreadclaw recently which actually went quite well, but it feels strange to have your entire army on the other side of the table
while your Choppy Unit is 'in there'. I need something that either can make things happen, maybe move fast or is dangerous enough to make
people really shoot en masse on that target rather than the Dreadclaw.

The Chaos Cabal is enough to empower any fast melee unit Chaos has. You can take an entire unit of Raptors and attach the Cabal on bikes to it. I played against this at BAO and he used Khornedogs. +cursed earth + Grimoire + Invisibility. ERssentially unkillable at that point.

if you wanted PURE Chaos Marines, the Chaos Cabal plus Raptors would work as would the much maligned warp talons. A Cabal on jetpack could join them and make them a terrible force for evil though not quite as maneuverable as the actual khornedogs might be. but again this would be going pure chaos.

The Chaos Cabal has made the Chaos Codex absolutely viable.

 Jancoran wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Hey everyone,

as the title says, i'm in dire need for a Support-ish unit that'll fit into a Assault-based Chaos Space Marine Army. I know that some people
might say to drop the CSM's all together and play something else - but i really like my heretics quite a lot. I'm not really a 40k-player per se,
most of the time i'm more into painting / converting etc. so my experience with Fire support for my Army is a bit lackluster. I've tried some units
like Vindicators (which were great, when they had the chance to fire), Maulerfiends (which were underwhelming to be quite honest) and
Obliterators (which were OK, but didn't really fitted into the army).

I wanted to try out Heldrake(s), but i don't know if its sensible to play them as pairs like Vindicators or single or at all. Same goes for Forgefiends,
Havocs etc.

I often used a Land Raider to bring my Melee-centered unit into combat, although it dies quite often by doing so or even before being able
to do so. I used a Dreadclaw recently which actually went quite well, but it feels strange to have your entire army on the other side of the table
while your Choppy Unit is 'in there'. I need something that either can make things happen, maybe move fast or is dangerous enough to make
people really shoot en masse on that target rather than the Dreadclaw.

The Chaos Cabal is enough to empower any fast melee unit Chaos has. You can take an entire unit of Raptors and attach the Cabal on bikes to it. I played against this at BAO and he used Khornedogs. +cursed earth + Grimoire + Invisibility. ERssentially unkillable at that point.

if you wanted PURE Chaos Marines, the Chaos Cabal plus Raptors would work as would the much maligned warp talons. A Cabal on jetpack could join them and make them a terrible force for evil though not quite as maneuverable as the actual khornedogs might be. but again this would be going pure chaos.

The Chaos Cabal has made the Chaos Codex absolutely viable.

Maybe not? I routinely play against Cabal CSM (with Demon allies) and regularly beat them with Nids SM and IG. I understand that beating CSM with Imperials is not exactly summit in Everest, but a regular liss to Nids and IG says the Cabal may be overhyped

Just remember that for 5 more points you're getting 3 Hades Rapier Cannons.

Who cares about AV12 5++ when you got T7 and cover?

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Hey everyone,

as the title says, i'm in dire need for a Support-ish unit that'll fit into a Assault-based Chaos Space Marine Army. I know that some people
might say to drop the CSM's all together and play something else - but i really like my heretics quite a lot. I'm not really a 40k-player per se,
most of the time i'm more into painting / converting etc. so my experience with Fire support for my Army is a bit lackluster. I've tried some units
like Vindicators (which were great, when they had the chance to fire), Maulerfiends (which were underwhelming to be quite honest) and
Obliterators (which were OK, but didn't really fitted into the army).

I wanted to try out Heldrake(s), but i don't know if its sensible to play them as pairs like Vindicators or single or at all. Same goes for Forgefiends,
Havocs etc.

I often used a Land Raider to bring my Melee-centered unit into combat, although it dies quite often by doing so or even before being able
to do so. I used a Dreadclaw recently which actually went quite well, but it feels strange to have your entire army on the other side of the table
while your Choppy Unit is 'in there'. I need something that either can make things happen, maybe move fast or is dangerous enough to make
people really shoot en masse on that target rather than the Dreadclaw.

The Chaos Cabal is enough to empower any fast melee unit Chaos has. You can take an entire unit of Raptors and attach the Cabal on bikes to it. I played against this at BAO and he used Khornedogs. +cursed earth + Grimoire + Invisibility. ERssentially unkillable at that point.

if you wanted PURE Chaos Marines, the Chaos Cabal plus Raptors would work as would the much maligned warp talons. A Cabal on jetpack could join them and make them a terrible force for evil though not quite as maneuverable as the actual khornedogs might be. but again this would be going pure chaos.

The Chaos Cabal has made the Chaos Codex absolutely viable.

Maybe not? I routinely play against Cabal CSM (with Demon allies) and regularly beat them with Nids SM and IG. I understand that beating CSM with Imperials is not exactly summit in Everest, but a regular liss to Nids and IG says the Cabal may be overhyped

"maybe". but I have played against it, steered by good players like Chuck Arnett and I have seen how terrifying they can be. The natural pairing of Chaos Mariens and Daemons is an obvious thing to do and its HIGHLY effective.

Nothing is unbeatable. Nothing. I was quite close to tying my game in this case for example. But it was entirely up hill and I had to bring my A game just to be IN the game. So for what it's worth, I myself use Night Lords to excellent effect and i have seen the Cabal do wonders as well. Chaos is pretty frakking far from dead. It just requires a littlee better game than when you bring Y'Varah spam or whatever other craziness Forge World allows. You maybe cant make as many mistakes...butthen if you're making mistakes, you should expect to pay for them, am i right?

Totally agree. The commander behind the army is the biggest factor in how the army fares. For example, the CSM player I'm talking about has been out of the competition circuit since early 6th, but has been running CSM for over a decade. Doubtful he's in the same league ah a high caliber tournament player, but he definitely knows his army/ tactics.

The Cabal just seems extremely situational to me.

That can be said of a lot of things though. the whole game is sort of filled with situational choices.

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
I'm currently running the 'Brethren of the Dark Covenant' formation (Dark Apostle, 1 group of possessed, 1-2 groups of Marines, FnP + Zealot in a 12" aura) - with MoN the Possessed are quite tanky (3+/5++, FNP (or 3+/3++, FNP at T5)) and let them run over the field (or use a Dreadclaw).
Other than that i use Bikes & Spawns for fast, Blobs of Cultist for my troop choice (or Noise Marines)..

The Knight is one thing i have thought about, but i'm scared people might be pissed if you bring one - especially in a friendly game. The Heldrake(s) was something i have thought about as well - firstly, i'd love to convert one - but on the tabletop i'm not quite sure how they perform.
Forgefiends.. i don't know, i think they're expensive for what they can do - at least in my mind. Maybe i should test them - good thing my Fiend's are magnetized^^

IA 13 & Aeronautica is available, but i don't like the prize range of Forge World.

Edit: I probably need something to open up Tanks & Boxes from a decent range. I think about how i could scratch-build/kitbash those Rapier Weapons things.

The tracks for Kataphron servitors work excellently https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Kataphron-Battle-Servitors-Breachers

You could also use the tracks from an IG Taurox https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Taurox

The tracks for Kataphron servitors work excellently https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Kataphron-Battle-Servitors-Breachers

You could also use the tracks from an IG Taurox https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NO/Taurox

The Battle Servitors are an excellent idea - Thanks for that! I'm definitely ordering one of those.

When it comes to the Cabal Formation - i'm not quite sure (aside from Shrieking) what this should do. (forgive my newbie-ness)
I can see the enormous buff for the Possessed, Prophet of the voices wearer & Fiends from cursed earth and maybe enfeeble on the enemy,
a 4++ (up to 2++ with the CS Mutation table) sounds awesome / disgusting. I'll give it a try.

I tested the Forgefiends today in a 1500 match against SM's, i'm not sold as of yet - they were pretty 'good' against MEQ's & glanced one
Rhino to death - but other than that.. I'll test them again next week when i'm back from vacation.
My opponent allowed me to play a bike as stand-in for a Rapier Platform and.. good god, this Conversion Beamer is a beast. I will test
the Laser Destroyer eventually, but this purchase / Conversion is already made basically.