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I'm looking for some advice from Tau players that have experience using the Infiltration Cadre. My thinking is to fill it up with three full squads of Pathfinders (One with 3x Ion Rifles and the other two with 3x Rail Rifles) and kitting out the two Stealth teams to be Marker sources with Shas'vre Drone Controller Target Lock Markerlight a 2x Marker Drones. How I see it playing out is chaining the Markerlights by focus firing one unit at a time with free Seeker Missiles, starting with one of the Pathfinder teams and using their Markerlights to buf the Stealth Teams to BS5. Any input is appreciated.

I have experience using this awesome formation.

Your particular solution seems to be taking advantage of the sheer volume of special weapons it brings, but it would already do that in any Formation. The one advantage you are getting in this Formation is of course the free Pathfinder missiles. Everything else the Formation does, you can do with other formations right? So it is the missiles that are the main attraction in the way you are describing it. I don't disagree that the free missiles are pretty cool.

Also I believe the Formation fires just one missile if at least three hit. So your Pathfinder units would only need six members to get their missile off reliably and could be firing 3 Rail Rifles plus the missile every turn which is legit firepower for ANY Fast attack choice to by putting out.

So the formation as you have it would be firing 12-15 heavy duty shots a round, plus i assume one Fusion on each Stealth unit. And then the Pirahna can fire missiles. If you take a full unit of Pirahna with fusion and missiles, then you are hitting with 15 heavy duty shots on fast platforms round one from them.

It seems like a lot of good firepower that can get around the enemy if you max it out.

Here is my issue though.

As much firepower as THAT is the only NEW firepower it brings is the three free missiles every round. So I submit to you after having used this formation, that the free missiles are not really the main attraction of this Formation.

The Beacon is.

Have you considered what the Beacon allows you to do? It allows you to execute the ultimate Null deployment.

Now i am speaking as an ITC player so understand that when I explain this. Whoever chooses to deploy first goes first in ITC (barring Seizing).

So if you choose to go second, you can then deploy as little as ONE Pirahna, with Fusion and two Seeker missiles and their trusty Drones. That's it. You could also deploy any other part of it you want, but consider the situation in which you are utterly outgunned. Lets say you face a force that you simply cannot afford to be a target to for more rounds than necessary. This Formation allows you to completely hide your force, see what the enemy will do, how he deploys and what he is going to try the first two rounds before you have to engage. imagine taking all his firepower and dumping it down the toilet for two rounds and then when he kills the two Drones...or the Pirahna, your entire force gets the jump on him, from every angle with heavy duty weapons and with far less time for him to express his armed superiority.

I have used this in a number of games to gain positional dominance. My units can ALL reach the enemy, but doing so from the perfect angles instead of being a victim of his faster movement.

this trick only works if you go second but when it works, it's cool in two ways. First, he might MAKE you go first. Oh what a tragedy right? You're Tau and you now get to shoot his face off like you love to do and maybe balance the scales a bit in this stilted matchup i am describing. But if he makes you go second, you can plant a Pirahna on the field and say "go". The Pirahna is plenty fast enough to reach objectives and deny the enemy theirs. it has just enough fangs on it to worry any tank commander into taking it seriously. yet the enemy knows if he kills that Pirahna, every single bit of your force is coming in behind it, in exactly perfect position to take advantage of whatever the enemy did before that point.

The list that I used to do this was as follows:

Farsight Enclave Optimized Stealth Cadre (19#, 788 pts)
5 Stealth Shas'ui (Bonding Knife Ritual+ Advanced Targeting System)
5 Stealth Shas'ui (Bonding Knife Ritual+ Advanced Targeting System)

1 Ghostkeel Shas'vre, 141 pts (Fusion Collider, Twin Linked Fusion Blaster + Bonding Knife Ritual +2 MV5 Stealth Drones
1 Ghostkeel Shas'vre, 141 pts (Fusion Collider, Twin Linked Fusion Blaster + Bonding Knife Ritual+ 2 MV5 Stealth Drones
1 Ghostkeel Shas'vre, 166 pts (Ion Raker, Twin Linked Fusion Blaster+ Bonding Knife Ritual+ Target Lock + Velocity Tracker + 2 MV5 Stealth Drones)

: Farsight Enclave Combined Arms Detachment (14#, 749 pts)[/b]
1 Commander, 182 pts (Neuroweb System Jammer, Talisman of Athas Moloch, Onager Gauntlet, XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit + Target Lock+ Stimulant Injector+ Velocity Tracker+ Bonding Knife Ritual)

5 Fire Warriors, 50 pts (Bonding Knife Ritual)

5 Fire Warriors, 50 pts(Bonding Knife Ritual)

1 Riptide Shas'vre, 191 pts (Ion Accelerator+ Early Warning Override +Bonding Knife Ritual)

1 Riptide Shas'vre, 191 pts (Ion Accelerator+ Early Warning Override +Bonding Knife Ritual)

1 Tidewall Gunrig, 85 pts

[b]Formation: Infiltration Cadre (27#, 463 pts)
6 Pathfinders, 66 pts
6 Pathfinders, 66 pts
6 Pathfinders, 66 pts

3 Stealth Shas'ui, 98 pts (Advanced Targeting Systemx1, Fusion x 1)

3 Stealth Shas'ui, 101 pts (Advanced Targeting Systemx2, Fusion x 1)


1 TX4 Piranha, 66 pts (Fusion Blaster, 2 x Seeker Missiles)

Now you're version would be more bristling with guns, which is cool. Just drop the Gunrig and a couple stealth suits or something and you can arm the Pathfinders to the teeth. at 1850, drop one Ghostkeel.

Thanks for the response and it's good to know that even in ultra-competitive ITC environments that the Infiltration Cadre pulls weight. Yes, my intention was to pair it with an Optimised Stealth Cadre with Fusions in all Stealth squads. My vision is a little limited and I was thinking the request beacon is something that's only good to pair with a heavy Crisis drop, but I see where you're coming from tactically and never considered the null deployment angle. I'm surprised to see that you give two of your Keels the Colliders. All of the threads and army posts I've seen say Raker.

 counterwavecounter wrote:
Thanks for the response and it's good to know that even in ultra-competitive ITC environments that the Infiltration Cadre pulls weight. Yes, my intention was to pair it with an Optimised Stealth Cadre with Fusions in all Stealth squads. My vision is a little limited and I was thinking the request beacon is something that's only good to pair with a heavy Crisis drop, but I see where you're coming from tactically and never considered the null deployment angle. I'm surprised to see that you give two of your Keels the Colliders. All of the threads and army posts I've seen say Raker.

No the Beacon informs your entire army build really. It's a great tool for evening the odds when you are simply going to be overpowered if the enemy is given enough time. I also think that tertiaries were the deciding factors in almost all my games at the Bay Area Open. When you tell someone that you took the Primary Objectives five times out of 6 and took Maelstrom 3 of the six games, you would expect to win a lot of your games... but... the Tertiaries mattered so much. With less time for the enemy to kill you and more time for you to be everywhere o nthe board with such a mobile force, you have a definite advantage later in the game. Doesn't mean you're going to win. But it does mean you have a better chance at forcing it to tertiaries.

As for the Raker Collider thing: I know what is said. Rakers are good.I don't dispute it on any level. the extra D3 Hull Points I can inflict with the Collider is pretty sweet also. Land Raiders, Monoliths and the like are where the Raker really doesn't compete well. I would rather be equipped for anything, and never be without the ability to affect the enemy with my weapons when i can help it. So while we both know that Land Raiders aren't running away wit hany tournaments, it doesnt mean they arent there. there was one in my first game at Bay Area Open. there is also an EXCELLENT formation which isnt used much but which allows a Squadron to be formed with a LandRaider and that allows the Landraider to soak all the hits for the nasty squad mates behind it. There is also the other question, which is do i even WANT to give those Terminators a shot at 2+ saves? Paladins? Megaarmored guys leading the unit of Lootas? Even just basic Artificer armor often thrown in front of a squad to make it very durable against initial volleys. Broadsides, Riptides.... At some point you just need RELIABLE wounds and the Raker gives al lthose things a good chance of ignoring it. Will it happen? Dunno. But the Collider eliminates the discussion, which I like.

Therefore the Raker is there to help when all those concerns are moot or on overwatch or when firing at planes. The Colliders are there to make certain there is no time in which the Ghostkeel cannot menace a super heavy or other such thing. And trust me when I say: there are definitely people playing super heavy Storm Lords. Its one of the favorite "new things" that I have seen some people doing because of its silly good rules. I personally use the Living Tomb Formation and have seen others use the big boy version of the Obelism (I think the Obelisk is better but whatevs). Not to get us way off track (too late) but that is my thinking there.

You've been exceptionally helpful. I really want to run an Infiltration Cadre, mostly because I love Pathfinders, despite the naysayers, and you've eliminated my concern that the Infiltration Cadre isn't competitive. Now to get building

I alos have a blog entry on this:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2016/04/tau-empire-infiltration-cadre.html

I think you guys miss out on the best ability of the Infiltration cadre, 1st turn all deepstrike.

I field it with three 6 man pathfinders and 2 stealth teams with a fusion gun each, plus the piranha or two. I purposely forward deploy the stealth teams and will scout a sacrificial pathfinder team forward as well, they go after something that forces he opponent to deal with them. Most of the rest of the army is in reserve and obivously I give the enemy the first turn. If any of the teams actually do something then cool but I am not btetting or relying on it.

With a good retaliation cadre and some other deep strike reserves you can eviscerate your opponent on your turn one.

I think we didnt "miss" the first turn DS as a possibility at all!. Its very fun.

Any luck yet, counterwavecounter

 Jancoran wrote:
Any luck yet, counterwavecounter

I'm painting it up at the moment, so haven't played with it yet.

Col. Dash wrote:
I think you guys miss out on the best ability of the Infiltration cadre, 1st turn all deepstrike.

.

How do you figure 1st turn deep-strike? You don't have a drop pod assault special rule, and while the rule says you do not need to roll for reserves, you are still utilizing reserve rolls, ie turn 2 at earliest.
And GW even FAQ'd a similarly worded formation to contradict raw that you have to wait until turn 2 with the Air Superiority Cadre, because again, there are no turn 1 reserve rolls.

Its simple. You go second. let them kill the only thing on the board (Pirahna) and then every single thing the Tau have comes on, Deep Strike or otherwise.

Boom. 1st turn drop for everyone! (well, everyone who was in Deep Strike Reserve anywho).

and the rule specifically says you DONT roll. it just happens.

Just coming back into the game after leaving at the end of 5th, and aesthetically pathfinders, stealth suits, and piranhas are some of my favorite Tau units (along with Barracudas and Tetras.)

If I'm understanding 7th Ed Army Comp correctly, formations are playable armies in and of themselves.

Could one build a viable list off the Infiltration Cadre formation for 500-1000 point games?

witchdoctor wrote:
If I'm understanding 7th Ed Army Comp correctly, formations are playable armies in and of themselves. Could one build a viable list off the Infiltration Cadre formation for 500-1000 point games?

Correct! You can make an army entirely out of Formations if you'd like. I suspect that the Infiltration Cadre needs the support that Riptides, Ghostkeels and Broadsides provide. I don't see it packing enough punch on its own. That said, you can fill 1,000 points with it by increasing the Pathfinder squad sizes + special weapons + a Devilfish or two, increasing the Stealth team squad sizes and increasing the Piranha squad size. The army would be paper thin though. Pathfinders have the same durability as an Imperial Guardsman and Piranhas are only 11/10/10. You would be relying heavily on the Stealth Suits to carry the game, but even with Stealth and Shrouded, there are only so many 3+ saves you can make.

 Jancoran wrote:
Its simple. You go second. let them kill the only thing on the board (Pirahna) and then every single thing the Tau have comes on, Deep Strike or otherwise.

Boom. 1st turn drop for everyone! (well, everyone who was in Deep Strike Reserve anywho).

and the rule specifically says you DONT roll. it just happens.

but you lose... you've been tabled at the end of a player turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At no point can you have no models on the table, and still be "in the game" which is why grey knights and deathwing lost that "feature"

Perhaps this formation might be fine for beer and pretzels at 500 points with other likeminded gamers. Though, it sounds like if I wanted to keep the same units and still have some of the support of the Ghostkeels and Broadsides you mentioned at a larger scale, I'd be better off with an Optimized Stealth Cadre, a Ranged Support Cadre, and a Piranha Firestream Cadre.

AND while another formation uses exactly the same wording/ideas: http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16469&d=1448213657
the turn one nature was specifically denied in the GW faq
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/07/breaking-new-40k-tau-faq.html

 pumaman1 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Its simple. You go second. let them kill the only thing on the board (Pirahna) and then every single thing the Tau have comes on, Deep Strike or otherwise.

Boom. 1st turn drop for everyone! (well, everyone who was in Deep Strike Reserve anywho).

and the rule specifically says you DONT roll. it just happens.

but you lose... you've been tabled at the end of a player turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At no point can you have no models on the table, and still be "in the game" which is why grey knights and deathwing lost that "feature"

So go second. When going first, field more. Simple.

For clarification: You lose at the end of any full-game turn that you do not have a model on the board. This means that you should not end your turn when you have no models on the table.

Other Null Deployment armies work by having their troops enter on their first turn. Unless the Piranha dying instantly calls in all of your reserve troops (I haven't read the Piranha entry yet), you do NOT want to deploy this as your only model at the beginning of the game. If it gets shot off the board and you have nothing that comes in from reserves on turn 1, you lose the game.

tl;dr version; Don't end your turn with no models. You can start a turn with no models but for the love of the four gods do not end it with no models.

EDIT: just read the Piranha entry and the formation. I reiterate again: do NOT start on the board with just the Piranha. If it gets shot off the board your units don't come in until Turn 2 (although they instantly come in if you do somehow survive till then). If you have nothing else on the board when you end that turn, you instantly lose.

deploy the piranha only. You're good. Just read the Formation rules. Its not complicated or convoluted in the least.

Yeah, its fairly clear. Lose any unit from the formation and everyone deepstrikes in your next turn. That's why I said and deploy my stealth and piranha aggressively to where he has to do something about them or they will kill something he needs next turn. I keep the pathfinders in cover.

Works great with battlesuit heavy armies.

Like said, its game turn, not player turn for auto losing due to lack of models..

I'd deploy the pathfinders instead actually. And keep them bare bones.

A pirhana can be ignored for a turn, pathfinders really can't, the seekers hurt, and the markers are a threat once your dudes jump in.

And the stealth suits, you want to drop along your heavy hitter drops in order to get beacon shenanigans.

I tried many combinations, and the one that 'aggroed' my enemies the most were this:

- barebones Piranha, hidden near deploy limit
- 3x Pathfinders - 4 models, 3 with Ion Rifles, Scouting to weapon range
- 2x Stealth Suits - 3 models, 1 with Target Lock and Fusion Blasters, Infiltrating

It's a bit expensive, but not only these units will be able to do some damage, they'll be weak enough to be killed as soon as they are targeted. I value the Beacon much more than meek 3 missiles.

I put 6 pathfinders inthe unit so i can get the missiles. they ,ount up over time.

The Pirahna with two Seekers is what I prefer. A lot of teeth that way and REAL tough not to kill for the enemy.

Yeah, I go with three 6 man pathfinder squads with nothing else, 3 stealth suits with the fusion gun upgrade and a fusion piranha with seekers. Infiltrate the stealths.

You don't drop the stealths simply because they are the smallest unit and most easily wiped out, but with the fusion, still a decent threat to something. The Piranha stays in the backfield first turn firing seekers from the pathfinders. I would say its the least expendable of the bunch.