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Howdy,

decided to make a topic incase some grizzled Comissars can give me a hand (preferable to execution without questions) in how to set up Troops in an Astra Militarum -army for competitive play.

For ages, how to best set up the Troops choice has eluded me. I'm thinking that for competitive play, there are 3 good options:

-Buffed out blob or two
-Veterans in transports with Melta/Plasmaguns (seems too pricey for what they do?)
-Bare Veterans with Autocannons (cheap, leaves points elsewhere)

Now my question is about the blobs, conscripts and Infantry Platoons. How to best equip them for competitive play?

Another thing I struggle with is the Platoon Command Squads. What on earth should I equip these guys with? They are just a papery 5 man squad slogging it up the field.

My list would be AM supported by Space Marines or possibly Grey Knights. Any tips appreciated.

It's a really difficult question, because there's not really a good answer at the moment.

Vets are usually my go to choice, but recent(-ish) changes and vehicle rules have made plasma/melta vets in chimeras very much over priced. Their transport is flimsy and they can only shoot 2 guns out of the top.
I've retired all my chimeras now. They just don't get the job done.

Quick insert before I get to the main point:
Why are your PCSs "slogging it up the field" when they are indeed paper thin? Don't do that! I usually equip them one of two ways.
All flamers in a Valkyrie/Vendetta. They can deep strike or walk out and flame some back field troops off an objective. I've also equipped them all flamers and hidden them out of LOS. If something comes near you you can pop them out and burn whatever is arriving.
The other way is 4 snipers. Throw them in ruins and take pot shots at stuff. Cheap, they tend to be ignored, and they occasionally make their points back. It was better in 6th when snipers could glance vehicles, as I'd have 2 snipers and an AC.

So my go-to troops now are incredibly boring, but it really depends what you need them to do. I want objective scorers, because plasma vets pushing up field don't cut it any more.

Vets with camo cloaks and snipers. Dump them on an objective and they're fairly hard to remove.

A blob with meltas and lascannons. Again, dump them on an objective, and they can do some damage, especially with orders. They are fragile though. Way too fragile.

My question to you, is: if you're taking SM or GK to back up the IG, why not just do it the other way around? Those guys get troops that are OK, AM troops are fething awful right now. Which is a shame, because that's exactly why I fell in love with IG - they had, in my mind, the best troop choices.
IG seem to fit a niche of cheap troops (camo vets) that can camp an objective and give you some goodies like artillery and Vendettas or Vultures. I don't think they're great as the primary detachment any more.

Probably a blob with a priest. Get 20 and than 50 conscripts - now those are amazing.

conscripts need a priest and can add in a commissar... spread them out to cover as much ground as possible and march forward. it's glorious. You've got the right idea with the other two as well: keep platoons to around 30-40, keep them cheap... i like GL and ACs... the BS 3 doesn't hurt them too bad and they can still pump out some firepower.. orders allow them to move and shoot, etc. Main goal is to pump out flashlight shots and protect the stuff you want to keep safe. The ONLY way to run vets IMHO is max plasma, but preferrably melta, in a chimera. I agree with the others -- Platoon Command is only BS3, so load them up with flamers and either march them alongside your conscripts/infantry platoons for some "wall of flame"... or better yet, put them in a chimera and burn stuff.. or even a Valk, like an earlier poster suggested. Sisters of Battle can actually offer a lot as an ally to buff up those conscript squads. If you're going GK, think about bringing some AM psykers (the formation from kayoun book is good) for the warp charge/prescience.

I usually run pcs naked alongside the blobs purely for orders, scoring and a few lazgun shots. I don't think it's worth investing into them. Flamers, transport and you end up without an extra wivern.

I really don't recommend blobs. In fact I don't recommend troops at all as anything other than objective scorers. A 50 man blob is so unwieldy and inefficient it's ridiculous and all it accomplishes is to get itself killed. "Great!" you say, "that was it's job; to draw fire from my more valuable assets!". The problem is that blob cost you so many points to make even decently workable it WAS your single most valuable asset and the rest of your army suffered greatly for it. And what did it do while it was alive? Inflict a couple lasgun wounds on some t4 targets? Miss a few lascannon shots at some vehicles? Probably nothing.

There is a reason blob warfare stopped happening in reality; firepower became too overwhelming for it to work. This is the same thing that has happened in 40k.

Veterans are better, but they get costly if you want them to do anything significant. I'm starting to think mechanized platoons with bare minimum upgrades are best. All they do is try and secure objectives. All the actual fighting gets left to your other assets.

In recent days I have simply gone back to the old standard 3x melta chimera and carapace.

Are they overcosted for the damage they deal? Probably. but they give guard something they don't really have anywhere else, which is objective claiming pressure where they can dive in with obsec, claim, and do a bunch of damage along the way.

I never take more than the minimum 2, but of late I have totally replaced the bubblewrapping role that used to be occupied by blobs with the vastly superior VSG+Psykana division summoning units of daemonettes.

There's nothing a blob can do that a reliable 2 squads of daemonettes a turn doesn't do better.

the_scotsman wrote:
In recent days I have simply gone back to the old standard 3x melta chimera and carapace.

Are they overcosted for the damage they deal? Probably. but they give guard something they don't really have anywhere else, which is objective claiming pressure where they can dive in with obsec, claim, and do a bunch of damage along the way.

I never take more than the minimum 2, but of late I have totally replaced the bubblewrapping role that used to be occupied by blobs with the vastly superior VSG+Psykana division summoning units of daemonettes.

There's nothing a blob can do that a reliable 2 squads of daemonettes a turn doesn't do better.

Up until recently I've been fielding no less than three squads of melta Vets in Chimeras. I'm cutting it down to two in favour of an additional LRBT for an upcoming 1,500pt game. A recent surge of Scions as an allied detachment has securing objectives and clearing armour sorted.

 Runic wrote:
Howdy,

decided to make a topic incase some grizzled Comissars can give me a hand (preferable to execution without questions) in how to set up Troops in an Astra Militarum -army for competitive play.

For ages, how to best set up the Troops choice has eluded me. I'm thinking that for competitive play, there are 3 good options:

-Buffed out blob or two
-Veterans in transports with Melta/Plasmaguns (seems too pricey for what they do?)
-Bare Veterans with Autocannons (cheap, leaves points elsewhere)

Now my question is about the blobs, conscripts and Infantry Platoons. How to best equip them for competitive play?

Another thing I struggle with is the Platoon Command Squads. What on earth should I equip these guys with? They are just a papery 5 man squad slogging it up the field.

My list would be AM supported by Space Marines or possibly Grey Knights. Any tips appreciated.

I like 40 man blobs. add three priests and three psykers. add 4 Lascannons. Add 4 Power axes. Meltabombs if you wish. That's how i do mine.

I usually run veterans in chimeras, with either 2 melta and a heavy flamer or 2 plasmas and a melta and always carapace armour. Since only two guns can be fired out of the hatch only two need to match targets and I find the extra flexibility gained by having the third gun different far out weighs the increased focus of firepower. And honestly if the get out of their transports they're probably dead anyway.

As for blobs I don't like them. They are unwieldy they're damage output isn't any better then the sum of the individual squads, and they die sooooo easily.

If you want to run platoons I would say run a bunch of ten man squads with a heavy weapon and maybe krak grenades. Nobody wants to waste their fire on a small 50-80 point squad, whereas if they're blobed up people will happily blow them off the board. The heavy weapon will let them do something while they are bubble wrapping your important stuff, or sitting on an objective. Of course moral is a problem, but if your HQ is a tank commander you have a pretty good shot at getting the 'no moral check for 25% casualties' warlord trait.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Runic wrote:
Howdy,

decided to make a topic incase some grizzled Comissars can give me a hand (preferable to execution without questions) in how to set up Troops in an Astra Militarum -army for competitive play.

For ages, how to best set up the Troops choice has eluded me. I'm thinking that for competitive play, there are 3 good options:

-Buffed out blob or two
-Veterans in transports with Melta/Plasmaguns (seems too pricey for what they do?)
-Bare Veterans with Autocannons (cheap, leaves points elsewhere)

Now my question is about the blobs, conscripts and Infantry Platoons. How to best equip them for competitive play?

Another thing I struggle with is the Platoon Command Squads. What on earth should I equip these guys with? They are just a papery 5 man squad slogging it up the field.

My list would be AM supported by Space Marines or possibly Grey Knights. Any tips appreciated.

I like 40 man blobs. add three priests and three psykers. add 4 Lascannons. Add 4 Power axes. Meltabombs if you wish. That's how i do mine.

If you're going to spend almost as much on priests and psykers as the main body of guardsmen, why would you limit yourself to 40 bodies?

This is how I used to run my guard, and how I will definitely go back to running my guard when they make it slightly better to sink points into. But I've basically found anything I want melee-centric guardsmen to accomplish, summoned Daemonettes from the psykana division will do better, cheaper, and more consistently.

Run an infantry platoon. Run the Infantry squads without Chimeras and spread any special additions across the squads - the Comissar in one, the Vox Caster in another, the Priest in the third, and so on. That way, in Purge the alien you can combine the squads into a single blob squad that would only net your opponent a single victory point, but in the others allows you a toolbox of units to use to achieve victory.

I like to run a plasma CCS in Chimera, plasma vets in Chimera, melta vets in Chimera, melta vets in Taurox, flamer PCS in Vendetta, and 4 basic squads with flamers. The vets, CCS, and PCS move up field, and the 4 basic squads camp the backfield or bubble wrap more important stuff as needed. If they kill one or two guys all game it's a miracle but 40 cheap bodies are almost always useful in some way. My gaming opponents like to refer to them as my "war crimes" squads because I will throw them into impossible situations that they cannot possibly survive just to keep Pask or the Wyvern alive for another turn or two.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Runic wrote:
Howdy,

decided to make a topic incase some grizzled Comissars can give me a hand (preferable to execution without questions) in how to set up Troops in an Astra Militarum -army for competitive play.

For ages, how to best set up the Troops choice has eluded me. I'm thinking that for competitive play, there are 3 good options:

-Buffed out blob or two
-Veterans in transports with Melta/Plasmaguns (seems too pricey for what they do?)
-Bare Veterans with Autocannons (cheap, leaves points elsewhere)

Now my question is about the blobs, conscripts and Infantry Platoons. How to best equip them for competitive play?

Another thing I struggle with is the Platoon Command Squads. What on earth should I equip these guys with? They are just a papery 5 man squad slogging it up the field.

My list would be AM supported by Space Marines or possibly Grey Knights. Any tips appreciated.

I like 40 man blobs. add three priests and three psykers. add 4 Lascannons. Add 4 Power axes. Meltabombs if you wish. That's how i do mine.

If you're going to spend almost as much on priests and psykers as the main body of guardsmen, why would you limit yourself to 40 bodies?

This is how I used to run my guard, and how I will definitely go back to running my guard when they make it slightly better to sink points into. But I've basically found anything I want melee-centric guardsmen to accomplish, summoned Daemonettes from the psykana division will do better, cheaper, and more consistently.

40 is enough. You gotta know when to say when.

Infantry platoon - I usually take two of these (obviously only one coteaz and a commissar needs to be subbed for a priest in one backfield unit)

PCS with autocannon 40pts (sits at the back and gives orders and snipes with the AC)
2 Combined Infantry Squads with Autocannons and bolters on sergeants with priest 147pts (Home objective holders)
50 Conscripts with a priest and coteaz 275pts (advances down centre of table and gets in CC if possible. Coteaz adds punch in melee, LD10 for orders, psychic shriek, potential 2+ rerollable save in CC with war hymns, re-roll to seize and potential for invisibility...)

Another good option with Vets is 3 Flamers and Forward Sentries. It's probably the most points efficient counter assault unit we have and can hunker down just fine on objectives.

If taking a priest for Hymns, take two.

I'm not really up-to-date on my current codex knowledge, but what about just taking an armoured battle group and using tanks as troops. LRBT variants aren't great right now, but they're better than platoons.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm not really up-to-date on my current codex knowledge, but what about just taking an armoured battle group and using tanks as troops. LRBT variants aren't great right now, but they're better than platoons.

Because there are too many ways to just smash vehicles in 7th ed. Grav will immobilize them and strip the hull points off, no problem. One round of shooting from grav cents will render any vehicle ineffective. That and the dirty "D" -- one hit from a D weapon and say goodbye to your tank... Eldar, IK, etc. can just wipe an armored list off the table in one turn

 Griddlelol wrote:
LRBT...better than platoons.

That's arguable. Maybe if you compare 150 pt of guardsmen to a tank they seem not as useful but than you need to compare 150 pt of guardsmen and the rest of the list to 600+ pt of tanks and the rest of the list.

The fact that tanks aren't amazing but are somewhat more useful than guards means that you spend way more points on something not amazing rather than fewer points on sometheng even less amazing but the rest on something good like a wivern, daemon factory or artillery formations.

 jgfield79 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm not really up-to-date on my current codex knowledge, but what about just taking an armoured battle group and using tanks as troops. LRBT variants aren't great right now, but they're better than platoons.

Because there are too many ways to just smash vehicles in 7th ed. Grav will immobilize them and strip the hull points off, no problem. One round of shooting from grav cents will render any vehicle ineffective. That and the dirty "D" -- one hit from a D weapon and say goodbye to your tank... Eldar, IK, etc. can just wipe an armored list off the table in one turn

Man, feth D-weapons. Why is that apoc gak in 40k?

I'm lucky in that I rarely ever play against people who bring that stuff though.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 jgfield79 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm not really up-to-date on my current codex knowledge, but what about just taking an armoured battle group and using tanks as troops. LRBT variants aren't great right now, but they're better than platoons.

Because there are too many ways to just smash vehicles in 7th ed. Grav will immobilize them and strip the hull points off, no problem. One round of shooting from grav cents will render any vehicle ineffective. That and the dirty "D" -- one hit from a D weapon and say goodbye to your tank... Eldar, IK, etc. can just wipe an armored list off the table in one turn

Man, feth D-weapons. Why is that apoc gak in 40k?

I'm lucky in that I rarely ever play against people who bring that stuff though.

Honest question: did you refuse to play against wraithguard and D-cannons in the previous edition? I ask because wraithcannons and D-cannon rules barely changed by going from their previous incarnation (wound on 2+, instant death on 6) to strength D. The only change is that they now cause D3 wounds on a 2+. Is it just because their rules are now covered by a USR that existed previously only in apocalypse?

Consider keeping your PCS naked and sitting on back objectives, out of LOS.
If the enemy cannot see them then it doesn't matter whether its a 5 man PCS with flak vests or a 10 man Terminator Squad with storm shields and fnp.

I do this, then blob the two inf-squads, using them as 16 extra wounds for two heavy weapon teams or 18 wounds for two specials. You then keep the blob in cover- either midfield objective control/firelanes or advancing through cover to kill things.

 koooaei wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
LRBT...better than platoons.

That's arguable. Maybe if you compare 150 pt of guardsmen to a tank they seem not as useful but than you need to compare 150 pt of guardsmen and the rest of the list to 600+ pt of tanks and the rest of the list.

The fact that tanks aren't amazing but are somewhat more useful than guards means that you spend way more points on something not amazing rather than fewer points on sometheng even less amazing but the rest on something good like a wivern, daemon factory or artillery formations.

Actually, the fact that you can now get Wyverns through the Emperor's Wrath Battery is a big boost to the ABG. Though admittedly most of the time I see ABG played, they generally bring Armored Fist Veterans with autocannons along with the Autocannon chimera for a pretty decent objective holding troop tax. They generally only bring Company Command russes and Commissar Russes to get the vanq with the beasthunter shells.

They aren't great against tanks, but tanks aren't common in the meta. Far more commonly you see MC-spam, and the list is tailored for instant death with the vanquishers.

the_scotsman wrote:

Honest question: did you refuse to play against wraithguard and D-cannons in the previous edition? I ask because wraithcannons and D-cannon rules barely changed by going from their previous incarnation (wound on 2+, instant death on 6) to strength D. The only change is that they now cause D3 wounds on a 2+. Is it just because their rules are now covered by a USR that existed previously only in apocalypse?

I didn't play against Eldar at all in 6th. My meta was very much focussed on Tau, IG, CSM/Daemons and C:SM. Occasionally there'd be a Necron, Ork or DE player, but I don't think I played against Eldar throughout 6th.

 Griddlelol wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Honest question: did you refuse to play against wraithguard and D-cannons in the previous edition? I ask because wraithcannons and D-cannon rules barely changed by going from their previous incarnation (wound on 2+, instant death on 6) to strength D. The only change is that they now cause D3 wounds on a 2+. Is it just because their rules are now covered by a USR that existed previously only in apocalypse?

I didn't play against Eldar at all in 6th. My meta was very much focussed on Tau, IG, CSM/Daemons and C:SM. Occasionally there'd be a Necron, Ork or DE player, but I don't think I played against Eldar throughout 6th.

5th? That was the rule then too...

Unless you haven't played them since 2nd ed, when they would instant-death on a 4+, move the target model a random scatter distance on a 1-3, and when they died, a vortex grenade exploded.

2nd ed was an interesting time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose my point is: there really isn't anything crazy about D as a rule. It isn't the monster it was in earlier editions when it appeared only in apoc (I believe it always caused an explodes! result, so unless you were a superheavy you weren't living through it). What makes D crazy in the places where it's crazy is more tied to the platform its strapped to (wraithknight) or the extra rules it got loaded onto it (no escape, wall of death on the D-scythes).

If a squad of Wraithcannon WG get within 12" of you and remove you from play, there are usually plenty of other weapons that would have done the same thing for the same or less cost. And if someone pays 170+60+35 points for a wraithguard squad and archon with WWP to delete your 150 point tank, you can just slap them with AP3 pie plate of your choice and make your points loss right back. I get much more annoyed when some marine player brings some dirt-cheap squad with a couple meltas and risk-free 35pt deep strike obsec blob with AV12 and one-shots an expensive tank.

Cheers for the replies. I'm now contemplating about Death Korps of Krieg Grenadiers in a Centaur -transport with a Meltabomb and a Flamer, 100 points.

A mobile 2 unit Objective Secured Troop toolbox.

What about Battlegroup Hammerblow? I feel like I'm pushing this formation wherever I go but it actually seems to me like one of the most competitive ways to use pure Guard at the moment due to the bonuses you gain. All the infantry in it (Command squad, Platoon, Scions) get ObSec and stubborn which is...quite good for units that really only serve to cap objectives anyway.

ExFideFortis wrote:
What about Battlegroup Hammerblow? I feel like I'm pushing this formation wherever I go but it actually seems to me like one of the most competitive ways to use pure Guard at the moment due to the bonuses you gain. All the infantry in it (Command squad, Platoon, Scions) get ObSec and stubborn which is...quite good for units that really only serve to cap objectives anyway.

What's the requirements for the battle group? And also what bonuses do you get?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been off the forums for some time but I've returned! This is certainly the issue I've been having lately so I suppose I'm glad I came back when I did. It seems to me that guards troops are being very lack luster and aren't helping much.

I've tried the blobs but to me it seems like a big point sink. And option I'm going to try is running 2 blobs of 3 infantry squads each. Give them each autocannons and maybe grenade launchers or flamers and a commissar or priest and then give each of the squads chimeras/tauroxs. The blobs would sit and hold home objectives while the vehicles just zip around.

Other options are just scrap the blob idea and just do mass cheap infantry squads loaded up in transports and just swarm objectives with bodies and vehicles. Use the transports to tank shock infantry and bunch them up. Emperors wrath artillery with manticore and basilisks to then hopefully blast the bunched up units.

ExFideFortis wrote:
I really don't recommend blobs. In fact I don't recommend troops at all as anything other than objective scorers. A 50 man blob is so unwieldy and inefficient it's ridiculous and all it accomplishes is to get itself killed. "Great!" you say, "that was it's job; to draw fire from my more valuable assets!". The problem is that blob cost you so many points to make even decently workable it WAS your single most valuable asset and the rest of your army suffered greatly for it. And what did it do while it was alive? Inflict a couple lasgun wounds on some t4 targets? Miss a few lascannon shots at some vehicles? Probably nothing.

There is a reason blob warfare stopped happening in reality; firepower became too overwhelming for it to work. This is the same thing that has happened in 40k.

Veterans are better, but they get costly if you want them to do anything significant. I'm starting to think mechanized platoons with bare minimum upgrades are best. All they do is try and secure objectives. All the actual fighting gets left to your other assets.

IMHO the issue here is more that you are putting lascannons in your blob-squad, which is a massive waste.

I use a 50-man blob squad with a commissar, melta bomb sergeants and autocannons behind an aegis line. To be honest, I have found them to be a very powerful unit. With orders and weight of dice I manage to do a lot of damage.

Necron flayed ones scare me, and so do Tau due to the ease with which they ignore cover, but they do well against most other armies I face.

Something I've noticed about Guard compared to my other army (Orks) is that there really is no consensus on list building, particularly when it comes to fielding heavy weapons. If you put lascannons in infantry squads then you're wasting lasgun shots and vice versa, but if you field them as heavy weapon squads they're too vulnerable, so what do you do? If you want lascannons (and you do) then, at the end of the day, you have to put them somewhere. Personally, I wouldn't put lascannons in the blob, as I don't think it's worth paying all those points and wasting all those lasgun shots just for a bit of padding around five BS3 lascannons. Autocannons go a lot further IMHO.

 Krusha wrote:

ExFideFortis wrote:
I really don't recommend blobs. In fact I don't recommend troops at all as anything other than objective scorers. A 50 man blob is so unwieldy and inefficient it's ridiculous and all it accomplishes is to get itself killed. "Great!" you say, "that was it's job; to draw fire from my more valuable assets!". The problem is that blob cost you so many points to make even decently workable it WAS your single most valuable asset and the rest of your army suffered greatly for it. And what did it do while it was alive? Inflict a couple lasgun wounds on some t4 targets? Miss a few lascannon shots at some vehicles? Probably nothing.

There is a reason blob warfare stopped happening in reality; firepower became too overwhelming for it to work. This is the same thing that has happened in 40k.

Veterans are better, but they get costly if you want them to do anything significant. I'm starting to think mechanized platoons with bare minimum upgrades are best. All they do is try and secure objectives. All the actual fighting gets left to your other assets.

IMHO the issue here is more that you are putting lascannons in your blob-squad, which is a massive waste.

I use a 50-man blob squad with a commissar, melta bomb sergeants and autocannons behind an aegis line. To be honest, I have found them to be a very powerful unit. With orders and weight of dice I manage to do a lot of damage.

Necron flayed ones scare me, and so do Tau due to the ease with which they ignore cover, but they do well against most other armies I face.

Something I've noticed about Guard compared to my other army (Orks) is that there really is no consensus on list building, particularly when it comes to fielding heavy weapons. If you put lascannons in infantry squads then you're wasting lasgun shots and vice versa, but if you field them as heavy weapon squads they're too vulnerable, so what do you do? If you want lascannons (and you do) then, at the end of the day, you have to put them somewhere. Personally, I wouldn't put lascannons in the blob, as I don't think it's worth paying all those points and wasting all those lasgun shots just for a bit of padding around five BS3 lascannons. Autocannons go a lot further IMHO.

I agree with you that lascannons in a blob are a huge waste, it's just that there doesn't seem to be anywhere else to put them, at least on infantry. The blob can indeed be decent like you say; I've had my buffed up guardsman slaughter TWC before but it was a huge amount of points to get them to that level and I lost the game because I had no board control other than my big unwieldy blob. They also could never have engaged the TWC if he hadn't charged me first because the blob is too slow.

I've started trying out the Armored Company list, and the troop choices there seem decent, specifically the armored fist squads (the armored fist veterans are horrifically overpriced). They are just basic guardsmen and a chimera however the chimera costs 55 points and still has 5 fire points, and there is no useless platoon command squad tax. One squad of these guys with meltabomb sarge, multimelta and autocannon in an autocannon chimera comes to only 135 points which seems like a pretty good deal to me considering what you are getting. In early turns they can sit immobile and pump out auto cannon rounds from relative safety but are mobile enough (and obsec) to grab midfield objectives in a turn if need be. It's a very generalist squad, but it's not badly priced and has quite a lot of utility. I took 4 of these units in my last game with a Command Tank HQ (Vanquisher). They put out some good autocannon firepower turn one, capped some objectives, moved into melta range to engage enemy transports/knight that was closing the distance, acted as blocking units to prevent my Baneblade from being charged and were just all around helpful. That's the first time I've felt good about guard troop units in a long time, though I want to experiment with their load out more.

Why not just run mech vets? Too expensive for what they do; a similarly kitted vet squad from the Codex list is 150 points with a worse Chimera (and Sarge can't take a melta bomb). That's 100 points more if I want to take 4 units of them and most opponents will perceive them as a greater threat than guardsmen in chimeras and will quickly remove them.

Also, tankboy145 Battlegroup Hammerblow gives you:

Stubborn/Ob Sec on all Infantry
Twin link on Baneblade and Leman Russ if they shoot at a unit within 12" of another unit from BGH
Scions must start embarked on Valkyrie, but the Valk. can choose to come in from reserves any turn it wants to (including turn one) and may deepstrike (and does not scatter if deepstriking within 6" of the scout sentinel)