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Hello Everyone,

I'm still enjoying a bit of free time I have and as such I've decided to start a little 40k writing project. I've put some details here in my original post

The outlining is going well, but I found myself trying to define the state of one of the major Voidships that will be a major location for the story, which is what I'd like input on.

So here are my general goals with this vessel.

The Voidcraft's name is Aurora Fortuna which if you want to play fast and loose with Latin/High Gothic could mean Fortune at Daylight
The Aurora is the sole vessel belonging to the Rogue Trader Dynasty whose current patriarch and sister are characters, the Bellamy's.
The Aurora is intended to be a mystery vessel to all outside parties, Inquisition, Mechanium, etc
The Aurora is old, very old. As Imperial Records during the Great Crusade have referances to her scouting ahead on behalf of some of the Expeditionary forces. Under the first Bellamy.
Given the Aurora's age and the fact that the she is the Bellamy dynasty's only vessel, I've described her in some early drafts from the perspective of a Magos Explorator as: "Something between a early crusade battleship and a Gloriana Class, an early prototype of the Gloriana Class, or perhaps an aborted competitor."
The Aurora was clearly built as a Warship, but from a very, very early point in her service and through the ages she was retrofitted to be a "Fleet Of One" for a Rogue Trader Family.
Finally, The Bellamy's take incredible care of the Aurora, reporting in the past to have traversed the Imperium and traded a planetary fortune in exchange for a single archeotech component.

I'd like some input on the goals, specifically some considerations you would recommend that a Rogue Trader Dynasty with one ship would have to deal with and any idiosyncrasies ships of that age may display say if the crew onboard has managed to keep her pretty much at 80%-85% functionality over the millennia regardless of cost. I'm also having a hard time extrapolating how big her crew might be so input there would be awesome.

Now in regards to the Bellamy Dynasty, of which Two members will be key characters. I have some details here I'd like input on.

The Bellamy Dynasty has and has ever had only one vessel, The Aurora Fortuna.
The Bellamy Dynasty can trace it's linage back to the Great Crusade.
They have two Valid Warrants of Trade.
The first (oldest) Warrant of Trade was issued by the Emperor himself.
This Warrant of Trade is practically unlimited in scope, as it was issued during a time of expansion.
The second (Younger) Warrant of Trade was issued sometime after that by a Primarch (Russ, Dorn, or Roboute?)
The second Warrant is barely a Warrant at all, and more of "If you see traitors, you can requisition X forces to deal with them, but most of the spoils go to the Imperium"
The Bellamy Dynasty given it's age has close ties with two Astartes Chapters: The Ultramarines and The Space Wolves.
The Bellamy Dynasty given it's age has run afoul of yet another Astartes Chapter: The Black Templars
The Bellamy Dynasty's relationship with the Space Wolves is owed to the Aurora coming to the aide of a Space Wolf Operation in it's time of need.
This Service has earned the Bellamy Dynasty a "Wolf at their side" for "Seventeen and Seven" generations as a retainer. At the pleasure of the current Great Wolf of course.

That is what I have written for the Bellamy's so far, I'm trying to establish somewhat of a skeleton so I don't go over-snowflake. (Which Admittedly I have to a degree with both the Dynasty and the Aurora) I'm trying to counter-balance what I do go a bit extreme on. So any input, suggestions or considerations you have on the Dynasty too would very helpful!

Thank you in advance! last feedback/question post I put here was super helpful! Looking forward to this one!

Maybe the ship can be say...
Retrofitted over the years too as damage occurred and has a few parts and still a excellent ship but somewhat varying and inside that you can pass though various styles of ship almost.

Like its well built but say you may find a Luna class hatch, a cargo bay styled off a emparor etc etc...


Showing its age but also still at heart highly advanced.

A ship of that age is also likely to be haunted by former crew, passengers and fallen boarders, or at least the echoes of them. Maybe not quite to the degree that it's actually haunted as in FFG's Rogue Trader game, but I'd expect many traditions on how to keep the spirits happy and dark stories about that time some midshipman opened Hatch TA-21 without first asking permission of anyone alive or dead behind it...

Spetulhu wrote:
A ship of that age is also likely to be haunted by former crew, passengers and fallen boarders, or at least the echoes of them. Maybe not quite to the degree that it's actually haunted as in FFG's Rogue Trader game, but I'd expect many traditions on how to keep the spirits happy and dark stories about that time some midshipman opened Hatch TA-21 without first asking permission of anyone alive or dead behind it...

That's actually a really nifty angle I didn't think of at all. How haunted can those old ships be? Would it be to extreme to think a ship of that age and continued service might have a rather active (and perhaps cantankerous) machine spirit?

 VictorVeneratus wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
A ship of that age is also likely to be haunted by former crew, passengers and fallen boarders, or at least the echoes of them. Maybe not quite to the degree that it's actually haunted as in FFG's Rogue Trader game, but I'd expect many traditions on how to keep the spirits happy and dark stories about that time some midshipman opened Hatch TA-21 without first asking permission of anyone alive or dead behind it...

That's actually a really nifty angle I didn't think of at all. How haunted can those old ships be? Would it be to extreme to think a ship of that age and continued service might have a rather active (and perhaps cantankerous) machine spirit?

No, it's not extreme at all. When playing Rogue Trader RPG, you have to determine at the start the type of machine spirit and that affects gameplay.
For example, you can have one that is attracted to planets and so may occasionally come out of warp catastrophically close to a planet.

For your ship though, I would suggest a Conquest Class Star Galleon. Old as hell, beautiful and rare in 40k.



Information - http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Conquest-class_Star_Galleon

For your ship though, I would suggest a Conquest Class Star Galleon. Old as hell, beautiful and rare in 40k.

And exactly the sort of thing (a heavily armed cargo vessel) a Rogue Trader might seek after.

Given the Aurora's age and the fact that the she is the Bellamy dynasty's only vessel, I've described her in some early drafts from the perspective of a Magos Explorator as: "Something between a early crusade battleship and a Gloriana Class, an early prototype of the Gloriana Class, or perhaps an aborted competitor."

Battleship is one thing. Glorianna class are quite another. These things were Primarch's Flagships, and the biggest things in space shy of superwarships like the Phalanx and Blessed Lady.

If there are any still around in 40k, a private dynasty - even one with a warrant of trade - would be incredibly unlikely to hang onto it.

'Just' a Battleship - even one with plenty of crusade-era archeotech - fine. The Imperium has countless Battleships, and a 10,000 year old Dynasty has to be pretty influential.

They have two Valid Warrants of Trade.
The first (oldest) Warrant of Trade was issued by the Emperor himself.
This Warrant of Trade is practically unlimited in scope, as it was issued during a time of expansion.
The second (Younger) Warrant of Trade was issued sometime after that by a Primarch (Russ, Dorn, or Roboute?)
The second Warrant is barely a Warrant at all, and more of "If you see traitors, you can requisition X forces to deal with them, but most of the spoils go to the Imperium"

I wouldn't anticipate a second Warrant being granted in these circumstances. Firstly, there's no indication of the Primarchs ever being authorised to issue Warrants Of Trade. They came from The Emperor, or the War Council - or subsequently the Council of Terra. I could imagine that Horus was delegated the authority as Warmaster, but for what's essentially a 'traitor-hunting license' not especially relevant.

More importantly, that's not a Warrant of Trade. A warrant's authority specifically 'Begins Where Imperial Space Ends' - in a region where, almost by definition, there can be no troops to requisition.

If he's inside Imperial Space, he's subject to Imperial Authority - so whilst a Rogue Trader is a Peer Of The Imperium, if a Primarch says "Go that way and shoot stuff" he'd better start running out the guns.

The Bellamy Dynasty given it's age has close ties with two Astartes Chapters: The Ultramarines and The Space Wolves.

Why the Ultramarines, though? I get 'assist the Wolves, become their friends' but why is it tied to Macragge? It's not like those two chapters get along very well, or - to my knowledge - have ever fought together in any particularly major engagement.

The Bellamy Dynasty given it's age has run afoul of yet another Astartes Chapter: The Black Templars

Define 'run afoul'. The Black Templars are not especially nice people if they don't like you; presumably this isn't a shooting war, though?

The Bellamy Dynasty's relationship with the Space Wolves is owed to the Aurora coming to the aide of a Space Wolf Operation in it's time of need.
This Service has earned the Bellamy Dynasty a "Wolf at their side" for "Seventeen and Seven" generations as a retainer. At the pleasure of the current Great Wolf of course.

Makes sense and very fitting.

Most important question is maintenance, crewing & refit. Do the Bellamys have any meaningful planet-side (or orbital) fiefs and domains?

In terms of size, a battleship would have probably closing on a quarter of a million people aboard, scaling up from the Grand Cruisers described in Rogue Trader, and be 9-10 Km long. If you think of it as Babylon 5 with Broadsides, you're not far off.

There would be a non-trivial birth rate on the ship itself, but you'd still need to draft several thousand people per year - mostly grunt workers but a few skilled personnel. The latter can be drafted from anywhere - maintaining relationships with Governors in their home base sector is a common one to essentially empty out prisons, or else drafting a few thousand at a time from hive worlds. Skilled officers are often inherited 'clans', but a good relationship with the navy might be useful too - firstly to provide occasional infusions of 'professional' officers, but also to negotiate access to navy drydocks - you'll either need those or a forgeworld, because nothing short of that can hope to dock and overhaul a battleship-class vessel.

Sourcing Enginseers and tech-savants needs close ties to the mechanicus, too. Agreeing to host exploratory expeditions on board during the voyages is a common 'deal' - and for such an old and precious ship, the ship itself can actually turn into a pilgrimage destination - heresy-era autoloading macrocannon batteries might well double as a mechanicus shrine.

The ship is essentially a city in space. It'll have it's own dialect(s) because in (for example) the gun decks, it'll be crewed by teams of hundreds who've worked their whole lives there, including families who've potentially even grown up on board.

There will be formal or informal markets in the crew deck spaces, shrines - mechanicus and ecclesiarch, and perhaps (given their relationship) even chapter cult too. Maybe one of the 'wolf at your side' some time back was a Wolf Priest?

Expect trophy rooms, and map chambers - library decks the size of a municipal library, filled with dataslates and crackly parchment listing the destinations and voyages over 10,000 years. If it's the Dynasty's primary seat of power, the upper deck will be essentially a palace. Cramped (by comparison to anything planet-bound) but still a palace - artworks, marble, statues and monuments to glories and triumphs. Think either versaille or roman villa.

Whether this is anything near the bridge or purely private depends on whether the Bellamys are actually captains of the vessel. Obviously the senior Warrant Holder is 'officially' the Lord-Captain, but is he actually a competent voidsman and navigator or is he just the guy who owns the ship, and more bothered about management, diplomacy, trade, and so on, whilst a 'ship's master' looks after the mundane tasks like manoeuvring?

locarno24 wrote:

Spoiler:

For your ship though, I would suggest a Conquest Class Star Galleon. Old as hell, beautiful and rare in 40k.

And exactly the sort of thing (a heavily armed cargo vessel) a Rogue Trader might seek after.

Given the Aurora's age and the fact that the she is the Bellamy dynasty's only vessel, I've described her in some early drafts from the perspective of a Magos Explorator as: "Something between a early crusade battleship and a Gloriana Class, an early prototype of the Gloriana Class, or perhaps an aborted competitor."

Battleship is one thing. Glorianna class are quite another. These things were Primarch's Flagships, and the biggest things in space shy of superwarships like the Phalanx and Blessed Lady.

If there are any still around in 40k, a private dynasty - even one with a warrant of trade - would be incredibly unlikely to hang onto it.

'Just' a Battleship - even one with plenty of crusade-era archeotech - fine. The Imperium has countless Battleships, and a 10,000 year old Dynasty has to be pretty influential.

They have two Valid Warrants of Trade.
The first (oldest) Warrant of Trade was issued by the Emperor himself.
This Warrant of Trade is practically unlimited in scope, as it was issued during a time of expansion.
The second (Younger) Warrant of Trade was issued sometime after that by a Primarch (Russ, Dorn, or Roboute?)
The second Warrant is barely a Warrant at all, and more of "If you see traitors, you can requisition X forces to deal with them, but most of the spoils go to the Imperium"

I wouldn't anticipate a second Warrant being granted in these circumstances. Firstly, there's no indication of the Primarchs ever being authorised to issue Warrants Of Trade. They came from The Emperor, or the War Council - or subsequently the Council of Terra. I could imagine that Horus was delegated the authority as Warmaster, but for what's essentially a 'traitor-hunting license' not especially relevant.

More importantly, that's not a Warrant of Trade. A warrant's authority specifically 'Begins Where Imperial Space Ends' - in a region where, almost by definition, there can be no troops to requisition.

If he's inside Imperial Space, he's subject to Imperial Authority - so whilst a Rogue Trader is a Peer Of The Imperium, if a Primarch says "Go that way and shoot stuff" he'd better start running out the guns.

The Bellamy Dynasty given it's age has close ties with two Astartes Chapters: The Ultramarines and The Space Wolves.

Why the Ultramarines, though? I get 'assist the Wolves, become their friends' but why is it tied to Macragge? It's not like those two chapters get along very well, or - to my knowledge - have ever fought together in any particularly major engagement.

The Bellamy Dynasty given it's age has run afoul of yet another Astartes Chapter: The Black Templars

Define 'run afoul'. The Black Templars are not especially nice people if they don't like you; presumably this isn't a shooting war, though?

The Bellamy Dynasty's relationship with the Space Wolves is owed to the Aurora coming to the aide of a Space Wolf Operation in it's time of need.
This Service has earned the Bellamy Dynasty a "Wolf at their side" for "Seventeen and Seven" generations as a retainer. At the pleasure of the current Great Wolf of course.

Makes sense and very fitting.

Most important question is maintenance, crewing & refit. Do the Bellamys have any meaningful planet-side (or orbital) fiefs and domains?

In terms of size, a battleship would have probably closing on a quarter of a million people aboard, scaling up from the Grand Cruisers described in Rogue Trader, and be 9-10 Km long. If you think of it as Babylon 5 with Broadsides, you're not far off.

There would be a non-trivial birth rate on the ship itself, but you'd still need to draft several thousand people per year - mostly grunt workers but a few skilled personnel. The latter can be drafted from anywhere - maintaining relationships with Governors in their home base sector is a common one to essentially empty out prisons, or else drafting a few thousand at a time from hive worlds. Skilled officers are often inherited 'clans', but a good relationship with the navy might be useful too - firstly to provide occasional infusions of 'professional' officers, but also to negotiate access to navy drydocks - you'll either need those or a forgeworld, because nothing short of that can hope to dock and overhaul a battleship-class vessel.

Sourcing Enginseers and tech-savants needs close ties to the mechanicus, too. Agreeing to host exploratory expeditions on board during the voyages is a common 'deal' - and for such an old and precious ship, the ship itself can actually turn into a pilgrimage destination - heresy-era autoloading macrocannon batteries might well double as a mechanicus shrine.

The ship is essentially a city in space. It'll have it's own dialect(s) because in (for example) the gun decks, it'll be crewed by teams of hundreds who've worked their whole lives there, including families who've potentially even grown up on board.

There will be formal or informal markets in the crew deck spaces, shrines - mechanicus and ecclesiarch, and perhaps (given their relationship) even chapter cult too. Maybe one of the 'wolf at your side' some time back was a Wolf Priest?

Expect trophy rooms, and map chambers - library decks the size of a municipal library, filled with dataslates and crackly parchment listing the destinations and voyages over 10,000 years. If it's the Dynasty's primary seat of power, the upper deck will be essentially a palace. Cramped (by comparison to anything planet-bound) but still a palace - artworks, marble, statues and monuments to glories and triumphs. Think either versaille or roman villa.

Whether this is anything near the bridge or purely private depends on whether the Bellamys are actually captains of the vessel. Obviously the senior Warrant Holder is 'officially' the Lord-Captain, but is he actually a competent voidsman and navigator or is he just the guy who owns the ship, and more bothered about management, diplomacy, trade, and so on, whilst a 'ship's master' looks after the mundane tasks like manoeuvring?

locarno24 That's an awesome post really made me go back to my reference notes and think! I put some thoughts/questions below that I'd love your feedback on.

For your ship though, I would suggest a Conquest Class Star Galleon. Old as hell, beautiful and rare in 40k.
And exactly the sort of thing (a heavily armed cargo vessel) a Rogue Trader might seek after.

Your the second person to recommend the Conquest Class, I've read up on it. I'm definitely considering it. I guess my concerns is lack of reference to insides, admittedly my choice in general "class" was to have an easy time pulling references as so many BL authors have described the interior of Gloriana's and Battleships.

Battleship is one thing. Gloriana class are quite another. These things were Primarch's Flagships, and the biggest things in space shy of superwarships like the Phalanx and Blessed Lady.
If there are any still around in 40k, a private dynasty - even one with a warrant of trade - would be incredibly unlikely to hang onto it.
'Just' a Battleship - even one with plenty of crusade-era archeotech - fine. The Imperium has countless Battleships, and a 10,000 year old Dynasty has to be pretty influential.

That was a concern about the likelihood of retaining control of it. Which was one of the reasons I decided to have the Vessel definitely "not" be a Gloriana, rather something that fell between a Battleship and the latter. I suspect if I went with a Crusade Era Battleship over a Conquest, it'd be likely to be something akin to a Despoiler Class Battleship?

I wouldn't anticipate a second Warrant being granted in these circumstances. Firstly, there's no indication of the Primarchs ever being authorised to issue Warrants Of Trade. They came from The Emperor, or the War Council - or subsequently the Council of Terra. I could imagine that Horus was delegated the authority as Warmaster, but for what's essentially a 'traitor-hunting license' not especially relevant.
More importantly, that's not a Warrant of Trade. A warrant's authority specifically 'Begins Where Imperial Space Ends' - in a region where, almost by definition, there can be no troops to requisition.
If he's inside Imperial Space, he's subject to Imperial Authority - so whilst a Rogue Trader is a Peer Of The Imperium, if a Primarch says "Go that way and shoot stuff" he'd better start running out the guns.

Makes sense, I'm not sure where I got the idea during my research that Primarchs ever issued Warrants of Trade. My Goal was the Second Warrant was to provide something venerable, but perhaps poorly worded, that would allow the Bellamy Dynasty to retain more of their freedoms from outside the borders inside with some creative interpretation. I figured a document issued in wartime, during the scouring, by a Primarch notoriously unconcerned with the minutiae of such things would be just vague/valid enough to accomplish this. The plot related reason for this is one of the characters I'm mapping out is a junior inquisitor (Fresh Rosette) and was warned that despite the power of the inquisition that she should "Tread Carefully" with the Bellamy Dynasty.

Any suggestions on how to go about this? Or do you think the Dynasty's Age/Clout accomplish the same effect?

Why the Ultramarines, though? I get 'assist the Wolves, become their friends' but why is it tied to Macragge? It's not like those two chapters get along very well, or - to my knowledge - have ever fought together in any particularly major engagement.

In my current notes, The Ultramarines relationship is no-where near as venerable or hallowed as the the one with the Wolves. It ties to a planned character, an Ultramarines 6th Company Librarian, and the reason for the Inquisition's involvement to a degree. As one of the events my early drafts are mentioning involve an "Void Altercation" with the 6th Company of Ultramarines. That was listed in Ultramarine Records (And stolen/submitted to the Inquisition). This record is very sparse and has very little in the way of detail. What I have established for it so far is just a spec scene of the Inquisitor discussing it with one of her retinue, and that individual pointing out that "if it was a "Void Altercation" why did the 6th Company's vessel have no need of resupply or repair after? Not so much as a macro-cannon shell or lumen strip." This was a "recent" that coincided with the change of power between the last Bellamy Patriarch and the Current Patriarch as well as the assignment of the Librarian.

Define 'run afoul'. The Black Templars are not especially nice people if they don't like you; presumably this isn't a shooting war, though?

My thoughts where, as the Bellamy Dynasty's Warrant does not limit them to any one sector of space given when it was written. They've undoubtedly encountered Black Templar Crusade Fleets, and yes, while it's never come down to a shooting war. The Bellamy's given their Dynasty's age have dealt with everything: Xenotrade, Non-Chaos Heretical-trade, Psy-tech, somewhat stable mutants in the crew, anyone one of which would not endear them to the Black Templars. I assumed that in those situations it was a "run the hell away while waving the Warrant with the Emperor's signature" situation .

Most important question is maintenance, crewing & refit. Do the Bellamy's have any meaningful planet-side (or orbital) fiefs and domains?

This is a point I've wanted to get feedback on as I am not sure myself yet. As you mentioned keeping something like the Aurora is a task unto itself, keeping it's secrets is another thing entirely. I had thought to fall back on the Bellamy Relationship with the Wolves and have her serviced at the docks above the Fang as the Wolves could be trusted with discretion, but that maybe pushing the relationship, even if he Bellamy's financed the materials. Problem with that is in the grand scale of the Aurora's history. That relationship with the wolves is only fraction, so it would need to be serviced elsewhere prior.

As for crewing, I assumed that Ratings are conscripted like on other vessels while the professional officers are recruited on a case by case basis from the navy/other voidships/etc.

Sourcing Enginseers and tech-savants needs close ties to the mechanicus, too. Agreeing to host exploratory expeditions on board during the voyages is a common 'deal' - and for such an old and precious ship, the ship itself can actually turn into a pilgrimage destination - heresy-era autoloading macrocannon batteries might well double as a mechanicus shrine.

I had considered this to the point of hosting an Explorator Maniple, but not to the pilgrimage degree. That seems like it would be "inconvenient" for the Bellamy's for many reasons.

Given the Heresy Era Tech and how well the Bellamy's have maintained the Aurora, would it be fitting to assume she had a smaller crew than average for a ship of her size?

There will be formal or informal markets in the crew deck spaces, shrines - mechanicus and ecclesiarch, and perhaps (given their relationship) even chapter cult too. Maybe one of the 'wolf at your side' some time back was a Wolf Priest?

This I have created multiple notes on, Bellamy's have made a point to enforce as well as they can, a very liberal version of the Imperial Creed. The Bellamy's themselves have never been particularly pious as their history stretches back to the Imperial Truth. I'd say that, the Bellamy's have faith, but not religion, but not absolutely, in regards to the Ecclesiarchy.

The "Wolf at the Side" while I originally considered a detachment, I quickly moved to an individual to whom I could give more development. Granted the "Wolf at the Side" is a position/title and has been through a handful of Wolves. Though I am planning on the current having held the position longer than his predecessors.

Expect trophy rooms, and map chambers - library decks the size of a municipal library, filled with dataslates and crackly parchment listing the destinations and voyages over 10,000 years. If it's the Dynasty's primary seat of power, the upper deck will be essentially a palace. Cramped (by comparison to anything planet-bound) but still a palace - artworks, marble, statues and monuments to glories and triumphs. Think either versaille or roman villa.

I am looking forward to writing these elements as scenery, I also imagine that these decks would also contain numerous Vaults gene-coded to the Bellamy Dynasty, with the most secure being the location of the Warrant.

Whether this is anything near the bridge or purely private depends on whether the Bellamys are actually captains of the vessel. Obviously the senior Warrant Holder is 'officially' the Lord-Captain, but is he actually a competent voidsman and navigator or is he just the guy who owns the ship, and more bothered about management, diplomacy, trade, and so on, whilst a 'ship's master' looks after the mundane tasks like manoeuvring?

This is an interesting point, I had always considered it "proximal" to the bridge. But never gave it thought to why, so your thought made me think about it more! Given the age of the Bellamy Dynasty, I'd say that it's been a mix. Some Bellamy's being more hands on than others. My notes currently state that the previous Patriarch was a experienced and capable voidsman. While his successor, while a capable voidsman is not as experienced. This successor, who is one of my principle cast acts as the Lord-Captain "most" of the time. However, he's not stupid. If he's in over his head and is able too. He turns command over to the current "Wolf at the Side" whose past includes command of a Astartes Strike Cruiser.

Thank you again for the great post and input! your original post helped me really hone the framework for these cardinal elements!

Victor, you seem to want to follow the fluff - looking for references to internal layout and structure for ships, preferably from books that describe them. I respect that but obviously that makes it more difficult, especially when it comes to rare ships like the Conquest Galleon.

Whilst I do believe the Galleon fits your desire for an extremely old, mysterious vessel fitted to the gills with Archeotech..... I have another potential suggestion IF you're willing to change your story a bit. Just for consideration.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ambition-class_Cruiser

The Ambition Class Cruiser. Instead of being an ex-navy vessel, they're the custom job cruisers of the private sector. The wealthiest Rogue Trader Dynasties can buy them and customise them fully; each one is unique in that regard.

I suggest this because then you can make up the interior and layout entirely to your own imaginings and still be within the fluff boundaries. Also, due to being entirely customised there could be lots of secret holds, passageways, rooms etc. in the hull.

I quote this from 1d4chan -
'Custom-made Cruisers for the exceedingly affluent - it's the Rolls Royce of the Cruiser World. Most Rogue Trader ships are second-hand, battle-scarred, tired and worn ex-navy vessels but the Ambition is not. It's the only cruiser class that can be bought brand spanking new by Private parties in the Imperium and each one is unique and built to the customer's specifications. These exclusive ships, whilst still cruisers and deadly in their own right, are stately homes and status symbols. Some durability sacrifices have been made in order to make them the most opulent and luxurious ships on the market but for eccentric people like Rogue Traders, it's generally worth it.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Victor, you seem to want to follow the fluff - looking for references to internal layout and structure for ships, preferably from books that describe them. I respect that but obviously that makes it more difficult, especially when it comes to rare ships like the Conquest Galleon.

Whilst I do believe the Galleon fits your desire for an extremely old, mysterious vessel fitted to the gills with Archeotech..... I have another potential suggestion IF you're willing to change your story a bit. Just for consideration.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Ambition-class_Cruiser

The Ambition Class Cruiser. Instead of being an ex-navy vessel, they're the custom job cruisers of the private sector. The wealthiest Rogue Trader Dynasties can buy them and customise them fully; each one is unique in that regard.

I suggest this because then you can make up the interior and layout entirely to your own imaginings and still be within the fluff boundaries. Also, due to being entirely customised there could be lots of secret holds, passageways, rooms etc. in the hull.

I quote this from 1d4chan -
'Custom-made Cruisers for the exceedingly affluent - it's the Rolls Royce of the Cruiser World. Most Rogue Trader ships are second-hand, battle-scarred, tired and worn ex-navy vessels but the Ambition is not. It's the only cruiser class that can be bought brand spanking new by Private parties in the Imperium and each one is unique and built to the customer's specifications. These exclusive ships, whilst still cruisers and deadly in their own right, are stately homes and status symbols. Some durability sacrifices have been made in order to make them the most opulent and luxurious ships on the market but for eccentric people like Rogue Traders, it's generally worth it.

Interesting, I had no idea that the Ambition Class Cruisers where even a thing. Thank you! I've ordered a copy of Battlefleet Koronus to get access to the info on the Conquest, this gives me another thing to to read into.

And the suggestion of using an Ambition is a great one, I'm going to tuck that into my notes if I routinely have issue aligning with the fluff. I am trying to keep into the fluff as sort of an exercise of "playing in someone else's sandbox." on top of everything else.

I guess my concerns is lack of reference to insides, admittedly my choice in general "class" was to have an easy time pulling references as so many BL authors have described the interior of Gloriana's and Battleships.

There's very little of a "standard" interior to Imperial starships - each one will take decades to build, and be built worlds apart; it's a rare individual who can claim to have worked on two of them.

Plus 10,000 years of overhauls, customizations and battle damage repair.... even if it wasn't unique to begin with, it will be now.

I suspect if I went with a Crusade Era Battleship over a Conquest, it'd be likely to be something akin to a Despoiler Class Battleship?

Actually, that's about the one class it won't be.
Despoilers were a mid M.36 design, which revolved around the idea that massed carriers were the way forwards (this is roughly just after the Nova Terra Interregnum, so maybe carriers figured largely during that civil war?)

Ultimately, the Crusade Era was less big on 'classes' of ships - prior to the Death Of Innocence, Mars' shipbuilding capacity was far greater, and every day led to new discoveries, so technology was (re)advancing at an incredible rate - new prototypes turned up every few years, and the Imperium was full of individuals influential enough to have ships built for them. As a result, there were far more ships that don't have a 'class' per se. Even the "Gloriannas" are only a class in the very loosest sense; aside from their size, Iron Blood, Red Tear, Conqueror, Fidelitas Lex, Invincible Reason, Macragge's Honour, Vengeful Spirit and the rest have very little in common.

My Goal was the Second Warrant was to provide something venerable, but perhaps poorly worded, that would allow the Bellamy Dynasty to retain more of their freedoms from outside the borders inside with some creative interpretation. I figured a document issued in wartime, during the scouring, by a Primarch notoriously unconcerned with the minutiae of such things would be just vague/valid enough to accomplish this. The plot related reason for this is one of the characters I'm mapping out is a junior inquisitor (Fresh Rosette) and was warned that despite the power of the inquisition that she should "Tread Carefully" with the Bellamy Dynasty.

Any suggestions on how to go about this? Or do you think the Dynasty's Age/Clout accomplish the same effect?

Any bearer of a Warrant of Trade is part of a group of individuals collectively referred to as "Peers Of The Imperium" - a loosely defined collective of Ecclesiarchy Cardinals, Lord-Admirals, Planetary Governors, Inquisitors, Chapter Masters and Rogue Traders.
Any noble house that falls into the above should be require an Inquisitor to 'tread carefully'.

Theoretically a bearer of a Rosette can go anywhere and requisition anything, but that authority is tempered by practicality and politics. For example:

Yes, in theory, an Inquisitor can turn declare a Lord-Governor a heretic and have him burned, but (since the Lord-Governor also has unlimited authority within his own sphere of influence) he can also declare the Inquisitor to be a heretic secretly working against the Emperor (it's not like it's not happened before).

Yes, Imperial Law and Precedent are on the Inquisitor's side, but the Planetary PDF and most of the guns are on the Lord-Governor's, and if he has you quietly killed and your corpse dumped into the star, who's going to know? The Inquisitor can requisition a battlefleet and an army elsewhere and come in heavy-handed, but that probably means other Inquisitors (with the same legal authority) are going to notice, and it means you're taking those same forces away from another crisis which desperately needs them. Meaning you're going to have to be convincing - so either the Inquisitor needs to play politics, have some actual evidence to back up his claims, or both.

In practice, therefore, things tend to be settled by bartering favours and respecting one another's overlapping spheres of theoretically unlimited authority. Civil war and unnecessary assassination attempts are thus avoided.

In terms of the Dynasty's wealth and influence - they would be a serious player regardless - they have the wealth to privately maintain a battleship, for heaven's sake - and almost certainly have many other fiefs and domains - other branches of the dynasty might be planetary governors or ecclesiarchy peers.

Secondly, if the first warrant of trade is an 'original' - i.e. is signed "=][=", then it's probably going to be enough by itself. It's later warrants which are more specific and limited, because no-one trusts one another with more power than they need. The first-generation warrants were more akin to the Sigilite's authority because the individuals in question had been "vetted" by the Emperor himself, and lack all the legal restrictions, essentially boiling down to "I name [this guy] and his descendents a Rogue Trader and empower them to go where the hell they want and do what the hell they want in the name of expanding my domains. They're in charge, you're not. Deal with it. Signed The Emperor."

Obviously that conflicts with the equally awesome mandate of an Inquisitorial Rosette, but then the latter were technically never issued by the Emperor, whatever the theological position says. Whereas whilst an Inquisitor claims to 'speak with the voice of the Emperor', the Bellamys have a piece of paper making it precisely and unequivocally clear exactly what the Emperor wanted in their case, so you're on bloody shaky territory if you try and invoke Vox Imperator as legal grounds to overrule them.

In my current notes, The Ultramarines relationship is no-where near as venerable or hallowed as the the one with the Wolves. It ties to a planned character, an Ultramarines 6th Company Librarian, and the reason for the Inquisition's involvement to a degree. As one of the events my early drafts are mentioning involve an "Void Altercation" with the 6th Company of Ultramarines. That was listed in Ultramarine Records (And stolen/submitted to the Inquisition). This record is very sparse and has very little in the way of detail. What I have established for it so far is just a spec scene of the Inquisitor discussing it with one of her retinue, and that individual pointing out that "if it was a "Void Altercation" why did the 6th Company's vessel have no need of resupply or repair after? Not so much as a macro-cannon shell or lumen strip." This was a "recent" that coincided with the change of power between the last Bellamy Patriarch and the Current Patriarch as well as the assignment of the Librarian.

Fair enough. Sounds interesting.....

My thoughts where, as the Bellamy Dynasty's Warrant does not limit them to any one sector of space given when it was written. They've undoubtedly encountered Black Templar Crusade Fleets, and yes, while it's never come down to a shooting war. The Bellamy's given their Dynasty's age have dealt with everything: Xenotrade, Non-Chaos Heretical-trade, Psy-tech, somewhat stable mutants in the crew, anyone one of which would not endear them to the Black Templars. I assumed that in those situations it was a "run the hell away while waving the Warrant with the Emperor's signature" situation .

Standard operating procedure for some Dynasties!
The Warrant would definitely not restrict their operations. Their off-ship resources might give them a preferred 'home base', but a first-generation warrant would be pre-Ullanor, maybe even pre-Cthonia, and have no restrictions tied to defined sectors because organised sectors and segmentums didn't exist yet!

It's a fair enough suggestion - I could see easily extra-imperial worlds getting visited by a Templar crusade and 'Bad Things Happening' - which could be awkward indeed if they were Bellamy trading partners....

This is a point I've wanted to get feedback on as I am not sure myself yet. As you mentioned keeping something like the Aurora is a task unto itself, keeping it's secrets is another thing entirely. I had thought to fall back on the Bellamy Relationship with the Wolves and have her serviced at the docks above the Fang as the Wolves could be trusted with discretion, but that maybe pushing the relationship, even if he Bellamy's financed the materials. Problem with that is in the grand scale of the Aurora's history. That relationship with the wolves is only fraction, so it would need to be serviced elsewhere prior.

As for crewing, I assumed that Ratings are conscripted like on other vessels while the professional officers are recruited on a case by case basis from the navy/other voidships/etc.

That's about right. But this is a battleship. Let's say the useful life expectancy of the work gang crew (about 80-90 percent) is thirty years - from about fifteen to about forty-five. Assuming a broadly even spread of ages, that means every couple of years you need to 'draft' the working-age, technically competent population of a small Midwestern city. You can't do that without consequences - either you need the relationship with the planetary governor (ideally have it be your dynasty's world in the first place!) or you need to take them by force - which I believe broadly qualifies as an invasion and is frowned upon in most Imperial circles.

The docks of the Fang could definitely handle it, but the Wolves are touchy about that sort of thing. Battleships other than their own tend to get short shrift - it's not to say they wouldn't, but honour debts aside, the wolves work very much on personal relationships; if the current warrant holder is on good terms with the Great Wolf, fair enough. It's like the Inquisition - the Inquisition as an entity is pretty much shot at on sight (The Emperor's Gift), but specific Inquisitors are well known and trusted enough to turn up and ask to borrow a squad of the chapter's newest to back them up on a mission, and get met with a friendly feast (Ragnar's Claw).

I had considered this to the point of hosting an Explorator Maniple, but not to the pilgrimage degree. That seems like it would be "inconvenient" for the Bellamy's for many reasons.

Given the Heresy Era Tech and how well the Bellamy's have maintained the Aurora, would it be fitting to assume she had a smaller crew than average for a ship of her size?

......Those two points are kind of contradictory. Yes, the ship can have a smaller crew - a battleship's quarter-million crew could easily be cut in half or more by archaeotech systems and servitor crew cadres, but maintaining that kind of stuff makes you much, much more dependent on the good graces of the Mechanicus, and means the only place you could overhaul would be a mid-to-high-tier forge world.

This I have created multiple notes on, Bellamy's have made a point to enforce as well as they can, a very liberal version of the Imperial Creed. The Bellamy's themselves have never been particularly pious as their history stretches back to the Imperial Truth. I'd say that, the Bellamy's have faith, but not religion, but not absolutely, in regards to the Ecclesiarchy.

The "Wolf at the Side" while I originally considered a detachment, I quickly moved to an individual to whom I could give more development. Granted the "Wolf at the Side" is a position/title and has been through a handful of Wolves. Though I am planning on the current having held the position longer than his predecessors.

Makes sense. The Wolfblade detachment given to House Belisarius shows that the Wolves do occasionally do such a thing. On a related note, if you wanted an interesting conflict of interest or dynamic - which Navigator house do you intend the Warp Guide* to be from?

Because if it is a House Belisarius navigator, they may have a wolf of their own in the form of a Wolfblade bodyguard. Might be interesting if you want to play up the fenrisian connection.

I am looking forward to writing these elements as scenery, I also imagine that these decks would also contain numerous Vaults gene-coded to the Bellamy Dynasty, with the most secure being the location of the Warrant.

Oh definitely. Many closets, with many skeletons in each. 10,000 years is plenty of time to find (and perhaps forget about) many important things.

This is an interesting point, I had always considered it "proximal" to the bridge. But never gave it thought to why, so your thought made me think about it more! Given the age of the Bellamy Dynasty, I'd say that it's been a mix. Some Bellamy's being more hands on than others. My notes currently state that the previous Patriarch was a experienced and capable voidsman. While his successor, while a capable voidsman is not as experienced. This successor, who is one of my principle cast acts as the Lord-Captain "most" of the time. However, he's not stupid. If he's in over his head and is able too. He turns command over to the current "Wolf at the Side" whose past includes command of a Astartes Strike Cruiser.

I can't remember if we've seen on a Wolves' ship in contemporary 40k - some chapters maintain Astartes captains, others human Shipmasters answering to the ranking Astartes - I'm not sure which way the Wolves went. Regardless, any astartes is going to be infinitely better as a battle commander than an inexperienced mundane human, so it's a sensible move.

And yes, it's a fair point that you can expect the 'palace' to connect directly to the bridge. In 10,000 years someone in the dynasty's history will have been an enthusiastic voidsman.


* Title of the Ranking Navigator on a ship. A Rogue Trader - who tend to operate in uncharted wildspace - will often maintain a cadre of them (kind like an astropathic Choir) , and especially on something the size of a battleship.

locarno24 wrote:
There's very little of a "standard" interior to Imperial starships - each one will take decades to build, and be built worlds apart; it's a rare individual who can claim to have worked on two of them.

Plus 10,000 years of overhauls, customizations and battle damage repair.... even if it wasn't unique to begin with, it will be now.

There's that too ofc. Imperial ships are HUGE things. Even if a named class of ship is supposed to be built according to one set of blueprints there's likely to be differences even between two examples fresh out of the shipyards. All the major stuff - engines, reactors, guns, shield generators - will probably be exactly where they should be but availability of materials and the preferences of the AdMech Magos overseeing the project can produce a multitude of small changes before any overhaul, customisation or repairs.

"We're out of Type XXV Superconductor Coils to power the Lances? No matter, we'll use Type XXII, they're close to spec with some adjustments. And they'll fit right in if we just move these corridors up against the bulkhead on the other side and squish the gunner rec area up along the coil."

Someone boarding a ship will have a general idea of where his target is, but getting there won't ever be as simple as following a clear path marked on a 10,000 year old blueprint. Turn a corner and the hatch you expected just isn't there because the area was built in mirror image or was later rebuilt ad-hoc with whatever was available.