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I noticed yet another tired thread about how riptides are brutal and how to nerf them. This goes along with all the other threads about nerfing deathstars, Wraithknights, Scatbikes etc...

Why is no one presenting the other option. Modify weapons so that their special rules that impact vehicles have an impact on non-vehicle models. Why should they be immune to melta or lance etc...?

My Proposals

Bolter weapons - All bolter weapons gain Exploding bolts rule
Exploding bolts - All bolter weapons cause 2 wounds for each wound inflicted - each would needs to be saved separately
Heavy Bolters gain rending
Sternguard Special Ammunition also gains new boler rule

Sniper weapons
All sniper shots are precision shots on a 4+
Wound on a 2+ against Infantry, Bulky units, beasts
Wound on a 3+ against Very Bulky, Extremely bulky, Cavalry, Bikes, Jetbikes, artillery
Wounds on a 4+ against MC's or GC's
To wound rolls of 5+ are AP2
To wound rolls of 6 are AP2 and Instant death
Must pass a leadership test to go to ground against Sniper shots

Some sniper weapons would need to increase in points accordingly - Marine Scouts might need to pay 10pts per sniper rifle, rather than 1.
Every army should have access to at least 1 sniper unit or weapon

Precision Shots
- Cannot take lookout sir against precision shots

Assault cannons - more shots / lower str
- Gain Pinning and Rending on 4+

Autocannons - less shots / higher str
- Gain Concussive and Rending on 4+

Laser weapons
Laser weapons Gain Piercing - Some heavy laser weapons like a lascannon could gain the Beam rule as well.
Piercing - having a hole burnt through you or your exosuit will have catastrophic results. Models suffering piercing hits suffer d3 wounds

Create a Missiles / rockets weapons special rule
- All missile type weapons are considered blasts against ground targets. Against flying or swooping targets they are considered projectiles with a number of shots value.
- Ground - if the blast radius of a weapon is completely within the base of a model or if it covers a majority of the models in the unit, roll D3 wounds/ hull points for each hit
- Air - if a weapon shoots multiple missiles, and all missiles hit, that unit suffers double the wounds/hull points inflicted - saves must be rolled individually
-- Ex - A dreadnought with a missile launcher arm that fires a krak missile would fire 1 str8 ap3 blast against ground targets and against flyers and swooping MC/GC would fire 1 Str8 ap 3 Heavy 1

New Blast Rules for non-vehicles
- Blast wound allocation is chosen by the player owning the affected models, not the closest model to the shooter.
- Blast - if the blast radius of a weapon is completely within the base of a model or if it covers a majority of the models in the unit, the unit suffers D3 wounds for each hit.

Plasma Weapons
- All plasma weapons gain Plasma Burn
- Uses Added blast rules and for Non-Blast - if a weapon shoots multiple plasma shots, and all plasma shots hit, that unit suffers double the wounds/hull points inflicted - saves must be rolled individually
-- Plasma-Burn - If a unit takes an unsaved wound from this weapon, it is on plasma fire. - At the end of each turn, roll D6. On 4+, unit suffers an additional hit at the weapons strength and AP with Ignores Cover, randomly allocated. - On a 1-3, the flames die out.

Melta Weapons
- All melta weapons wounds suffered have cause instant death against all units below MC's. MC's on roll of 4+ to wound, suffer 3 Wounds. GC's on a roll of 4+ to wound suffer D3 wounds. Melta weapons also cause Plasma Burns
- Melta rule change - in addition to the vehicle rules, melta weapons do the following to non-vehicle units.
- Uses Added blast rules and for Non-Blast - if a weapon shoots multiple melta shots, and all melta shots hit, that unit suffers double the wounds/hull points inflicted - saves must be rolled individually
- Plasma-Burn - - If a unit takes an unsaved wound from this weapon, it is on plasma fire. - At the end of each turn, roll D6. On 4+, unit suffers an additional hit at the weapons strength and AP with Ignores Cover, randomly allocated. - On a 1-3, the flames die out.

Lance Weapons
- Lance weapons increase armor saves by 1 for each unsaved lance wound. Some higher powered lance weapons could have the beam rule applied
- ex. 2 lance weapons wound a riptide and it does not save those wounds - that riptides armor save is now 4+ instead of 2+

Poison Weapons
- Need to generally wound on 3+, wound MCs on 4+ and wound GCs on 5+

Tau Weapons
All burst weapons would be considered Bolters
All pulse weapons would gain blind
All tau ion weapons are AP4/3 or can be overcharged to Ap3/2 and the IA AP 2 when nova charged and hammer head ion cannon is ap 2 when over charged
All Rail guns have Armorbane and cause D3 wounds/hull points to models

Ork Weapons - would be gain the benfits listed above as they would be classified as said weapon - would maintain their ork firing mechanics
All Slugga / shoota weapons are considered bolters
Rokkits are missile weapons
Grot blasta are laser weapons
Snazz guns are plasma weapons
Deffguns are auto cannons
Kustom Mega-Blasta are melta Guns
Grotzooka are missile weapons

Tyranids
should have more poisioned weapons
combined with blast weapon changes their shooting becomes more potent.
perhaps they need some weapons identified as plasma weapons - could denote acidic burning

These changes might make it easier to deal with MCs, but they are also a pretty big hit against vehicles... which really don't need any further kneecapping.


It's also a lot to remember... Ideally, (IMO) basic weaponry should never have special rules.

Naaris wrote:

Grot blasta are laser weapons

No they're not.

Yeah, don't give bolters that rule. It has the consequence of also hurting horde armies even more, which aren't exactly top of the pile these days.

Point is, while a rising tide raises all boats, you also don't want a tsunami.

Rule bloat and power creep are real, and the solution to power creep isn't more power creep.

There does come a time where wide, sweeping, and heavy nerfs are appropriate. If I was to get down and roll my sleeves up, I'd be looking to nerf all the top codices down to a reasonable mid-tier codex and buff the weak ones up to that level. Really though, the game is fundamentally broken, and its hard to say where the line should be anymore. The introduction of giant gribblies and their common use makes it hard to propose rules where they're either heavily nerfed, heavily modified, extremely restricted, or just outwise banned from certain game types/point levels without getting extreme backlash from players who like them. Which is, of course, fair, but this forum serves as a way to bounce ideas off people and get feedback.

For this particular problem, one of the more logical solutions is to streamline the distinction between vehicles and MCs. Ideally, you'd have a single rules mechanic to govern all large gribblies, or 'constructs' for lack of a better word. Whether the new mechanic uses the vehicle/AV system or the MC/wounds system doesn't matter as long as its applied universally. Further, you then apply a minimum of two new USRs to distinguish between biological and mechanical constructs, which would define what special weapons/rules affect what. Poison would work against biological, haywire against mechanical, and so on.

This would then bring all the large gribblies in line with each other and simultaneously rework most of all the special and heavy weapons, which of course helps balance out all armies and how units interact with one another.

Of course, that's a gak load of work, but like anything, you get what you put into it. Want a Band-Aid, simple and fast fix? You'll get a weak, flawed result. Put the work in, you'll get a better fix.

But seriously, don't give basic infantry weapons more special rules. Its bad enough with Gauss and Bladestorm running around.

Keep it simple. Start with str 8+ causes two wounds/hull points. Then double all hull points.

Actually, I'd been working on a system where STR 7-8 deals D3, STR 9-10 deals D6 and STR 11-12 (D weapons) deal 2D6 - to an individual target, not through a 'wound pool".

As Martel mentioned, with the system you'll want to give vehicles a few more hull points - I think +2 about does it. (It also helps to give vehicles an armor save; AV 10 granting 5+, AV 11-12 granting 4+, AV 13 granting 3+, AV 14 granting 2+).