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Assuming Ideal Balance, How Much Should Riptides, Assuming FNP and IA, Cost?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Assuming Perfect Balance, What Should Riptides, Assuming FNP and IA, Cost?
Less than 220 points (the current price)
220 points (the current price).
250 points
275 points
300 points
325 points
350 points
375 points
400 points
More than 400 points

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Its right where it should be 225
   
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pm713 wrote:A lot more people said it shouldn't cost that.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/691781.page

43% of all poll respondents voted "400 or more."

When I write "395," I'm being conservative in my evaluation of its points value.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blacksails wrote:
If you're looking for my opinion, I'm far more in the camp of bringing down their stats/abilities to match their point cost.

I'd much rather tone things down than keep the ridiculousness and try and cost it correctly. In the long run its easier to keep things within a more reasonable spread than try and escalate points to match crazier abilities.


Your opinion is duly noted.

Nonetheless, why don't you humor me:

Let us assume a 395 point wraithknight, and let us assume a riptide, as described, with absolutely no rules changes.

How would you price it?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/28 21:36:18


 
   
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Look at those goalposts fly.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

I thoroughly enjoy how in one breath you can claim a bunch of the numbers are meaningless because of trolls, but in the next, claim its a perfectly valid and representative poll.

At least show some consistency.

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 Blacksails wrote:
I thoroughly enjoy how in one breath you can claim a bunch of the numbers are meaningless because of trolls, but in the next, claim its a perfectly valid and representative poll.

At least show some consistency.


Oy vey.

Are you going to answer the question seriously or not?

I repeat the question:

Assume a 395 point wraithknight. How does the riptide, as described, compare to it?

You yourself made the WK the standard of comparison, Blacksails.
   
Made in ca
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Are you going to acknowledge your total inconsistency?

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Just out of curiosity. Why do you make so many complaints about xenos chese and never talk about all of the OP stuff imperial forces get.

The riptide is fine where it is. I would rather land-raiders be dropped to 180 points then riptides brought up to 250.

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lusciifi wrote:
Just out of curiosity. Why do you make so many complaints about xenos chese and never talk about all of the OP stuff imperial forces get.

The riptide is fine where it is. I would rather land-raiders be dropped to 180 points then riptides brought up to 250.

In fairness he has referred to it a few times. Although I feel a double standard is present with it.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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Outer Space, Apparently

 Traditio wrote:
Lots of Mathshammer stuff


Sorry I just didn't want to quote your whole post.

I take your calculations into account, but that's all they are; calculations based on a game with a lot of chance in. You are probably tired of me saying it now, but this game hinges on chance dice rolls for most of it's actions, which means that not everyone is going to experience a lot of units in the game in the same way.

Guess I'm an anomaly then, or a "troll poll" if that's the term you prefer

So yes, you're right, but I don't think that matters. I mean, I prayed to the dice gods and cursed the WAAC TFG's before each battle anyway, so I was bound to pull out great wins

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 21:53:33


G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark

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Have to say General that's a pretty silly idea. The dice gods are cruel and care little for your prayers. You need a sacrifice of some sort.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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lusciifi wrote:
Just out of curiosity. Why do you make so many complaints about xenos chese and never talk about all of the OP stuff imperial forces get.

The riptide is fine where it is. I would rather land-raiders be dropped to 180 points then riptides brought up to 250.


What are you talking about? I complain about that stuff non-stop. Grav is a load of bull gak. Bikes are undercosted. Formations should never have existed (much less ones that confer free transports). Thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds are seriously undercosted. Librarius powers are ludicrous...and the ridiculous durability of certain models are just infuriating.

I could go on, and that's just the SM codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 21:51:58


 
   
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Outer Space, Apparently

pm713 wrote:
Have to say General that's a pretty silly idea. The dice gods are cruel and care little for your prayers. You need a sacrifice of some sort.


Great idea! Let's start with this poll

G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark

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Made in ca
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Its almost as though this is the same OP who made a thread defending the GSF.

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 Blacksails wrote:
Are you going to acknowledge your total inconsistency?


Quote me on the precise things about which you think I've been inconsistent. I have made, throughout the course of these threads, a number of different, mutually consistent points. If you think that they're inconsistent, then you've simply misunderstood me. I will enumerate them below and I challenge you to indicate the ones that you honestly think are probably false:

1. We cannot form too hasty a judgment on public opinion from early poll results due to the fact that the most early responses are likely to be the dakka members who keep track of my postings, have a negative opinion of me and wish to troll me.

2. Given 1, we can, furthermore, assume that the extreme outliers on any given poll I make, assuming they seriously stray from the medial results, and further assuming that they were made early on and by a very small number of people, can probably be disregarded.

We can safely ignore one guy who votes for a 10 point wraithknight. If 100 respondents out of 300 voted for a 10 point wraithknight, then we can't. Something is going on and we should look into that.

And you know what? That's just a good rule in general. Going back to the WK thread, a very small number of people voted for ridiculous cheap wraithknights, and a very small number of people voted for ridiculously expensive wraithknights.

When looking for a reasonable number, we can throw both of those results out as extreme, unreasonable outlier results.

3. Nonetheless, the number of such results is relatively small and are easily outweighed in the final poll results, assuming enough responses are given over a long enough period of time. We can disregard the first hour 7/1 split because of various skewing factors. We can't disregard the final 200/150 result. 350 people don't give enough of a feth about me or what I say to devote themselves to trolling my polls.

This allows me to say that public opinion declares the following:

1. Wraithknights should cost a minimum of 395 points.
2. The mere existence of SHVs and GMCs in non-apocalypse games is extremely controversial, though a slight majority are basically fine with it.
3. Whether or not riptdes are fair is highly disputed, and there's roughly an even split on the matter in public opinion.
4. Bikes should cost more.

Which of these points do you wish to disagree with?

In fact, further consider the fact that the results of my polls basically correspond to what you actually see in discussion threads.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/28 22:00:09


 
   
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 Blacksails wrote:
Its almost as though this is the same OP who made a thread defending the GSF.

And Tyranids are OP. Don't forget that.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
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USA

 Traditio wrote:
lusciifi wrote:
Just out of curiosity. Why do you make so many complaints about xenos chese and never talk about all of the OP stuff imperial forces get.

The riptide is fine where it is. I would rather land-raiders be dropped to 180 points then riptides brought up to 250.


What are you talking about? I complain about that stuff non-stop. Grav is a load of bull gak. Bikes are undercosted. Formations should never have existed (much less ones that confer free transports). Thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds are seriously undercosted. Librarius powers are ludicrous...and the ridiculous durability of certain models are just infuriating.

I could go on, and that's just the SM codex.


Well that's the problem. Theres so much imbalance at this point that you cant really single riptides out as much as you do. In the current environment of competitive 40k riptides are not head and shoulders above the rest.

Bottom line. When you say what should the cost of a riptide be in a balanced 40k there's no way to awnser that. We could just as easly solve the issue by keeping the riptide at the same cost and making land-raiders 180 points, tac marines 10 and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I will say is the riptide wing should go away or it should cost an extra 100 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 22:00:28


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pm713 wrote:And Tyranids are OP. Don't forget that.


Yes. Because I'm not human. I'm never prone to error. And my opinions never change.

Right?
   
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Buffalo, NY

 Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:A lot more people said it shouldn't cost that.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/691781.page

43% of all poll respondents voted "400 or more."

When I write "395," I'm being conservative in my evaluation of its points value.


Which means 57% thought it should cost less than 400 points.

Oh wait, I forgot. 30% of the voters were trolling that poll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 General Annoyance wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Have to say General that's a pretty silly idea. The dice gods are cruel and care little for your prayers. You need a sacrifice of some sort.


Great idea! Let's start with this poll


So a "What should I sacrifice to appease the dice gods?"

I don't think it will work. Trolls will clearly vote for the "The Dice Gods do not exist, Heretic." option. We could always discount those votes though. Especially if the trend starts coming up as "{insert name here}'s first child".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 22:03:17


Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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Traditio, you can't make a poll, immediately dismiss its first findings, then decide later that the numbers are 'good enough' for your argument, which are also largely made up to suit your own needs.

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Happyjew wrote:Which means 57% thought it should cost less than 400 points.

Oh wait, I forgot. 30% of the voters were trolling that poll.


Let us assume that absolutely 0 poll respondents were trolls.

The fact remains that 47% voted for a 400 point or higher wraithknight. Roughly 70% voted for a wraithknight that's 350 points or higher.
   
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 Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:And Tyranids are OP. Don't forget that.


Yes. Because I'm not human. I'm never prone to error. And my opinions never change.

Right?


It certainly hurts your credentials when it comes to trying to balance stuff, seeing as it was obvious and common knowledge Nids have been bottom barrel for some time now.

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 Blacksails wrote:
Traditio, you can't make a poll, immediately dismiss its first findings, then decide later that the numbers are 'good enough' for your argument, which are also largely made up to suit your own needs.


Again, I ask you:

Which of my polls do you think obtained a final result that differs from actual public opinion as evidenced in average dakka discussions?
   
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And I ask you again, why is that you only decide the poll is sufficiently good enough or not troll filled when it becomes convenient for you to twist some arbitrary numbers.

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Does public opinion actually matter in the first place. I would say the majority of people out there have no idea how to balance the game. People are wrong about game balance all the time.

Real world statistics would be a better option but I know you don't want to look at tournament results and we dont have a large sample size of casual game results to look at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you dont like playing against riptide spam just talk to your opponent before hand about how competitive you want your game to be. Most people are willing to adjust their lists to have a more even game. I know I for one have a terrible time when the game is one sided in either players favor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 22:11:21


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lusciifi wrote:
Does public opinion actually matter in the first place. I would say the majority of people out there have no idea how to balance the game. People are wrong about game balance all the time.

Real world statistics would be a better option but I know you don't want to look at tournament results and we dont have a large sample size of casual game results to look at.



This is the real answer ultimately. Without justification, a poll number doesn't mean a whole lot. There's no context to the people voting. There's a reason real game companies have proper test groups that have to justify their reasons with essays and game data.

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 Blacksails wrote:
And I ask you again, why is that you only decide the poll is sufficiently good enough or not troll filled when it becomes convenient for you to twist some arbitrary numbers.


Blacksails:

Literally all that I've said, that you've misconstrued as per above, is "let's wait and see until the numbers are in."

Currently, the poll results are in my favor. Do I think that they are representative of total dakka opinion?

No. Less than 25 people have responded so far.
   
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And what you've misconstrued is that I'm referencing your previous poll you've trotted out where you dismissed it as being ruined by trolls until the numbers came out the way you felt was good enough.

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 Traditio wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
And I ask you again, why is that you only decide the poll is sufficiently good enough or not troll filled when it becomes convenient for you to twist some arbitrary numbers.


Blacksails:

Literally all that I've said, that you've misconstrued as per above, is "let's wait and see until the numbers are in."

Currently, the poll results are in my favor. Do I think that they are representative of total dakka opinion?

No. Less than 25 people have responded so far.

How are they in your favour? Two people have agreed. The most common vote is to keep it as is. In fact almost everyone disagrees with you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 22:18:49


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
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 Blacksails wrote:
And what you've misconstrued is that I'm referencing your previous poll you've trotted out where you dismissed it as being ruined by trolls until the numbers came out the way you felt was good enough.


Oy vey. That's enough for this derail.

The topic of the OP is as I've outlined. If you wish to discuss it, then discuss it. If not, then nobody is forcing you to participate in a thread, the legitimacy of which you don't acknowledge.

I've outlined my criterion as follows in the OP:

I am assuming a 395 point wraithknight.

You subsequently have asserted that we should balance the riptide against the wraithknight.

At this point, it's up to you either:

1. To make a reasonable points proposal for the riptide as outlined.

2. Recuse yourself from the discussion.
   
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Buffalo, NY

pm713 wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
 Blacksails wrote:
And I ask you again, why is that you only decide the poll is sufficiently good enough or not troll filled when it becomes convenient for you to twist some arbitrary numbers.


Blacksails:

Literally all that I've said, that you've misconstrued as per above, is "let's wait and see until the numbers are in."

Currently, the poll results are in my favor. Do I think that they are representative of total dakka opinion?

No. Less than 25 people have responded so far.

How are they in your favour? Two people have agreed. The most common vote is to keep it as is. In fact almost everyone disagrees with you.


Well, 41% of the votes don't count, because the posters are Eldar/Tau trolls who don't want their units nerfed. Without them the trend points to the fact that almost everyone still disagrees.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
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