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Made in gb
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 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 JamesY wrote:
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
 JamesY wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Gw abused flgs across the world I know several that are done with gw held a sale and have since broken all content.

One guy was so angry he nearly punched out the sales rep when he came around the next time.

Also know an arts supply store owner that used to sell some gw stuff and dumped it due to their business practices, he can rant for hours.

You reap what you sow.


That really isn't relevant, customers don't need to hear about a manager's problems with suppliers anymore than they need to hear about the fallout they had with their missus before coming to work. Offering an alternative if the first choice isn't available is best practice, pointing them in the right direction to a more suitable store if nothing you have is suitable comes next. Moaning should never happen.
It is entirely relevant - the game store owner has reason to kvetch about GW.

He is not kvetching despite them treating him well, he is kvetching because they are treating him poorly.

One might even say that GW is acting... unprofessionally. Treating the retailers that carry your products as competitors is not professional.

If I were a game store owner, I would have nothing to do with them.

The Auld Grump


It is irrelevant to the customer. Customers don't need to hear about gripes the manager is having with a supplier. If the customer asks about it and is interested, then fine, share the difficulties that the supplier is creating. There's absolutely no reason to divulge that information though just because you have been asked for a product, that isn't professionalism.
It is relevant to the customer.

Why can't I order 'X'?

Because GW does not sell those to the retailer - you will have to order it through GW.

So why would I buy stuff from you?

Like I said - if I were a retailer, I would tell GW to go pound sand, and, you betcha, I would complain about how crappy GW is.

The Auld Grump


Which is unprofessional, customers are not there to hear you complain about your supplier they are more likely to leave than anything else.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Nottingham

@theauldgrump then you'd loose customers. Negativity from a retailer, especially on a first encounter, is unlikely to generate repeat custom, as the op demonstrated.

A half way professional retailer who had chosen not to sell a specific brand would have offered an alternative that they do sell, and therefore given themselves an opportunity for a sale. Moaning isn't going to feed the till.

Have a look at my P&M blog - currently working on Sons of Horus

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I guess he should try stocking empathy.

There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.  
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




While yes it's unprofessional to do, how about people are human and make mistakes?

Heaven forbid you don't make a mistake and not get a chance to redemptive yourself.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

Bottle wrote:Yeah it sounds like his emotions got the better of him rather than offering you impartial advice.

I only really go in a GW but I am surprised at how helpful they are to people who play different games/aren't in the hobby at all - I've seen the staff recommend which GW paints could be used for the Guildball paint scheme a customer wanted, which AoS/WHFB kits are best for D&D etc etc and the staff don't shy away that they play/are knowledgeable of these other games too.

If GW have treated FLGS badly in the past I hope they rectify it like they have done with their community interaction already. Yeah, unfortunately being an AoS enthusiast gets you all kinds of disapproving looks and passive negative comments - as the game picks up speed it seems less and less though.


I was worried that someone wasn't going to play the AOS victim card in a thread that had nothing to do with it. That was a close one...




When it comes to sales, I have yet to meet an unprofessional manager at one of my FLGS's. I did, however, have one guy who ran a store in Lafayette that had me run 2 round 1 games instead of someone getting a bye, and ruling in favor of one of his friends using the manager's army in a tourney CONTRARY to what a recent White Dwarf had FAQ'd. That single ruling wound up costing me the tourney and the two semifinalists, both friends with the manage, decided to call it a draw and split the prize money evenly instead of playing it out. I wouldn't have taken such exception to the dual first round if it hadn't been my little brother AND my best friend I was "randomly" chosen to play against.

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Made in gb
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Devon, UK

Davor wrote:
While yes it's unprofessional to do, how about people are human and make mistakes?

Heaven forbid you don't make a mistake and not get a chance to redemptive yourself.


Thing is, for a professional, this is a mistake along the lines of trying to spear a piece of food with a fork and getting yourself in the eye i.e it's just about conceivable that it could happen on day one (assuming you learn cutlery as a toddler) but after more than a handful of attempts it shouldn't ever happen.

Overlooking a buying cue, forgetting to mention a specific recommendation that may well have worked - these things happen to a sales professional on a bad day, bemoaning the state of your business relationships to an uninterested customer is up there with remembering not to soil yourself and refraining from head-butting the clientele in the list of things you shouldn't do.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

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Denver, CO

I've only ever encountered the GW negativity online.

If I wanted GW, I'd go to the local GW store. Since I'm not at all interested in their games (no hate, I just like other stuff), I go to the FLGS. I've never seen any GW games at the FLGS, but I've never heard any badmouthing either. The FLGS promotes the games they sell, whether it's Magic, DzC, board games, etc. It seems pointless to discuss a game that's not on the shelves regardless of the reason.

In my experience, people vote with their wallets. No sense in talking trash about another company. Just enjoy your game of choice with other like-minded people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 03:35:43


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People keep posting that it's somehow unprofessional for the local game store guy to talk about their experience dealing with the game company. Where does that come from?

Around here, if you didn't want to deal with a human being, or find out how other human beings a doing with your hobby, you'd order the stuff online. Because you went to a local store, it's assumed that you want to know how the people involved are doing. That includes things like "How likely are you to find local players for that game?", "Are you going to be able to get those models from the game company in a reasonable time?", and "So what's popular around here?"

If you didn't want that, why are you going to a local game store in the first place?
   
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Japan

 Mymearan wrote:
This isn't a GW bashing thread, don't make it one.


Hm, an FLGS owner being critical of an previous retailer, strange in the electronic business, if a retailer treats you badly you go to a different one.
And why are you buying GW stuff at an FLGS, you should buy it at their store or at their website not at some discount giving parasite!

The FLGS where i used to go to in the Netherlands was the opposite, me and a friend were always critical of GW's price increases and model reduction.
But the owner was always pro GW

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 09:00:04


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Nottingham

 solkan wrote:
People keep posting that it's somehow unprofessional for the local game store guy to talk about their experience dealing with the game company. Where does that come from?

Around here, if you didn't want to deal with a human being, or find out how other human beings a doing with your hobby, you'd order the stuff online. Because you went to a local store, it's assumed that you want to know how the people involved are doing. That includes things like "How likely are you to find local players for that game?", "Are you going to be able to get those models from the game company in a reasonable time?", and "So what's popular around here?"

If you didn't want that, why are you going to a local game store in the first place?


Where do you get the notion that a game store should operate any differently to any other retailer? You wouldn't accept hearing the same problems from a green grocer or sportswear store. Yes you could argue that gaming stores are more personable, but asking for a product, then only getting a rant about why they don't sell it is hardly the happy human side you are painting.

Also, you go into a store if you want something immediately. You don't always want to have to wait a few days for something that you can grab there and then. Not every visit needs to be a 'social'.
   
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I think the biggest issue with this is the type of store a FLGS is. Unlike a lot of retail stores, FLGS's get a lot of regular customers on a regular basis. As such the manager, or counter staff get friendly with them. Treat them not like a customer, but more of a friend who buys stuff (occasionally).

The real skill is if someone new comes in, to switch off the friend mentality and go back into sales mode. I think that's the sign of a good manager, stay friendly with the locals, but treat someone new as a brand new customer and turn off the casual mode. Bad managers always seem to stay in casual and that can put off new customers.
   
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Frostgrave

 JamesY wrote:


Where do you get the notion that a game store should operate any differently to any other retailer? You wouldn't accept hearing the same problems from a green grocer or sportswear store. Yes you could argue that gaming stores are more personable, but asking for a product, then only getting a rant about why they don't sell it is hardly the happy human side you are painting.

Also, you go into a store if you want something immediately. You don't always want to have to wait a few days for something that you can grab there and then. Not every visit needs to be a 'social'.


I hear similar complaints from lots of independent 1-man stores - but you can't expect them to be as "professional" as a multi-national chain.

Sure, they shouldn't be rude, but they can still allow some personality to show. Plus with the way GW screws it's retailers about, it's not as if most don't have some complaints.
   
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Nottingham

Why wouldn't you expect the same level of professionalism? If anything I'd expect more as there are no hiding places when something goes wrong.

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Frostgrave

Because there's no formalised training or customer service or disciplinary procedures, and the cashier is likely the owner with about a thousand other things to take care of too.

You don't get good service in, say, Walmart because of hiding places, but there will be customer service departments, and managers, and staff training, and all sorts of procedures to follow. They'll probably also have lists of things not to talk about too.

Owner-operators tend not to be as organised or restricted.
   
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New Orleans, LA

I've mostly had good experiences with game store owners.

If a manager is a Negative Nancy with his customers, he's probably an unpleasant person to be around and I would shop elsewhere.

I only like cool people and chicks. Especially cool chicks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herzlos wrote:
Because there's no formalised training or customer service or disciplinary procedures, and the cashier is likely the owner with about a thousand other things to take care of too.


This is very true. I can be a patient person, and understand the demands that running a store has.

However, if you yell at children and allow Neck Beards to run off your actual paying customers, then you're doing it wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 13:23:59


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Frostgrave

 kronk wrote:

This is very true. I can be a patient person, and understand the demands that running a store has.

However, if you yell at children and allow Neck Beards to run off your actual paying customers, then you're doing it wrong.


Oh, definitely.

There's a line between moaning about crap service from a supplier and being rude to your customers. I expect small shop owners to be human, not monsters.
   
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Nottingham

Herzlos wrote:
Because there's no formalised training or customer service or disciplinary procedures, and the cashier is likely the owner with about a thousand other things to take care of too.

You don't get good service in, say, Walmart because of hiding places, but there will be customer service departments, and managers, and staff training, and all sorts of procedures to follow. They'll probably also have lists of things not to talk about too.

Owner-operators tend not to be as organised or restricted.


You don't open a restaurant off the back of being able to make scrambled eggs on toast. If you are opening a shop and expect it to be successful, I'd expect at least some personal experience in retailing before just deciding to open a shop. Starting a business in a sector that you aren't experienced in is just asking for problems, such as a lack of professionalism, and results in closed shops.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I was in retail for 14 years, the majority of which in management at varying levels. I was always very passionate about customer service and what it should look like. An unsolicited rant about a supplier, which resulted in a lost sales opportunity and a lost customer, is just unforgivable.

Have a look at my P&M blog - currently working on Sons of Horus

Have a look at my 3d Printed Mierce Miniatures

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30k Iron Warriors (11k+)
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Zone Mortalis (unfinished)
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Frostgrave

That's the thing, I (personally) give the small businesses a bit more leeway, and would forgive them of something like that, but I wouldn't if it was a larger chain.
   
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Nottingham

In a larger chain, the sales person probably wouldn't have any knowledge about supplier issues. They also don't need to care as much about good service, they get paid their hourly rate whether you buy or not. A small business owner's income directly depends on the sales they generate. If they sell more, they will be personally better off. That's why I'd expect more from them, as essentially their own quality of life is affected by their performance.

Have a look at my P&M blog - currently working on Sons of Horus

Have a look at my 3d Printed Mierce Miniatures

Previous projects
30k Iron Warriors (11k+)
Full first company Crimson Fists
Zone Mortalis (unfinished)
Classic high elf bloodbowl team 
   
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UK

Yeah when I worked retail I didn't give a fig, customers would return stuff they broke like phones they had clearly dropped but would like saying they screen just blew but I couldn't call them a liar I just refunded or replaced the item.

Nothing kills your faith in humanity like working retail.
   
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 JamesY wrote:
@theauldgrump then you'd loose customers. Negativity from a retailer, especially on a first encounter, is unlikely to generate repeat custom, as the op demonstrated.

A half way professional retailer who had chosen not to sell a specific brand would have offered an alternative that they do sell, and therefore given themselves an opportunity for a sale. Moaning isn't going to feed the till.
It entirely depends on context. If the retailer turns in to a grumpy arse then obviously it's not great, but I think it's a valid response to a customer asking "do you carry X" for the retailer to say "no, unfortunately the supplier is difficult to work with".

I appreciate the honesty my local hobby store has when I ask him about a product and he says he doesn't carry it because the supplier is unreliable, or that his supplier won't sell it to him at a price that would be competitive, or whatever. One time I asked him if he could get a kit in and he just told me honestly that he could but he'd been waiting ages for back orders from that particular distributor.

My local wargaming store (different store) before they closed I ordered a few things off them from GW and they took weeks to come after being told time and again it would just be a few days, all he could say is apologise and say his GW distributor kept delaying the order.

A slightly less local store I went to recently did carry GW stock but was trying to edge customers away from 40k and AoS to other games. Hearing the shop keepers talking among themselves it was clear they didn't like GW, and I know a couple of the shop keepers are ex-GW employees from decades gone by.

I guess I don't really see it as unprofessional to *honestly* steer customers away from certain products if you think it'd be both in their best interest and your own best interest. I absolutely despise the retailers who'll happily throw me under the bus with a product they either don't know about or don't trust themselves, it's why I don't trust anyone at face value if they're trying to sell me something. There are precious few large retail chains that I trust the workers and don't just treat them as an annoyance.

Having burned veterans is a real problem for GW, not just because of veterans telling their friends but also because many (most?) independent shop keepers are themselves wargaming veterans. Not to mention fething around local stores is a great way to get them to spread the bad word about your company.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 18:49:42


 
   
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Azreal13 wrote:
Davor wrote:
While yes it's unprofessional to do, how about people are human and make mistakes?

Heaven forbid you don't make a mistake and not get a chance to redemptive yourself.


Thing is, for a professional, this is a mistake along the lines of trying to spear a piece of food with a fork and getting yourself in the eye i.e it's just about conceivable that it could happen on day one (assuming you learn cutlery as a toddler) but after more than a handful of attempts it shouldn't ever happen.

Overlooking a buying cue, forgetting to mention a specific recommendation that may well have worked - these things happen to a sales professional on a bad day, bemoaning the state of your business relationships to an uninterested customer is up there with remembering not to soil yourself and refraining from head-butting the clientele in the list of things you shouldn't do.


I just find it funny how we say GW is so inhuman and don't care and show no passion, and we deride GW for it (not saying Azreal13 derails GW but the internet does) and here we have someone who shows passion (even though he may be in the wrong) and gets derided for doing that.

So it seems we want GW to be more human and nice, but yet when someone shows to be human we can't forgive them. What a bunch of hypocrites we are here on the internet.

*edit*

TL;DR

So GW acts professional and we call them inhumane and we have someone who acts human but call them unprofessional. So what do we want then as customers? Hyporicts we are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 19:05:43


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 JamesY wrote:
@theauldgrump then you'd loose customers. Negativity from a retailer, especially on a first encounter, is unlikely to generate repeat custom, as the op demonstrated.

A half way professional retailer who had chosen not to sell a specific brand would have offered an alternative that they do sell, and therefore given themselves an opportunity for a sale. Moaning isn't going to feed the till.
It entirely depends on context. If the retailer turns in to a grumpy arse then obviously it's not great, but I think it's a valid response to a customer asking "do you carry X" for the retailer to say "no, unfortunately the supplier is difficult to work with".

I appreciate the honesty my local hobby store has when I ask him about a product and he says he doesn't carry it because the supplier is unreliable, or that his supplier won't sell it to him at a price that would be competitive, or whatever. One time I asked him if he could get a kit in and he just told me honestly that he could but he'd been waiting ages for back orders from that particular distributor.

My local wargaming store (different store) before they closed I ordered a few things off them from GW and they took weeks to come after being told time and again it would just be a few days, all he could say is apologise and say his GW distributor kept delaying the order.

A slightly less local store I went to recently did carry GW stock but was trying to edge customers away from 40k and AoS to other games. Hearing the shop keepers talking among themselves it was clear they didn't like GW, and I know a couple of the shop keepers are ex-GW employees from decades gone by.

I guess I don't really see it as unprofessional to *honestly* steer customers away from certain products if you think it'd be both in their best interest and your own best interest. I absolutely despise the retailers who'll happily throw me under the bus with a product they either don't know about or don't trust themselves, it's why I don't trust anyone at face value if they're trying to sell me something. There are precious few large retail chains that I trust the workers and don't just treat them as an annoyance.

Having burned veterans is a real problem for GW, not just because of veterans telling their friends but also because many (most?) independent shop keepers are themselves wargaming veterans. Not to mention fething around local stores is a great way to get them to spread the bad word about your company.


To me it's absolutely not acceptable. I ask if they carry a product because I have researched it and want to purchase it, and I don't give a flying hoot about their retailer policies or the retailer's opinion of them. Some friendly banter is always welcome of course. In my case I was given a tirade about how horrible GW and their policies are right after I asked about GW minis. What he couldn't know (because he didn't ask) was that I already know that stuff. A professional approach would be to first try to ascertain if I am an informed customer or actually looking for opinions before giving them.

This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2016/08/01 21:25:43


 
   
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 Mymearan wrote:
To me it's absolutely not acceptable.
Well then I guess we have a different perspective on things.

As long as the shop keeper isn't rude or just simply moaning I'm happy to hear the why's and wherefores. If I hear he has low stock of a certain game because the supplier can't keep it in stock, that's something I want to hear because it will affect how hard it is for me to expand my army. If I hear the distributor still hasn't filled back orders from 6 months ago, it's going to affect my decision to purchase a game if I know my next purchase is going to require ordering items in. If I know the reason why my order took almost 2 months to come in despite being told it'd just be a few days was because the distributor kept lying to the shop keeper, it's going to influence future purchases. If I know long term veterans of a game are dissatisfied with said game, it's going to affect whether I want to trust the company that makes that game to keep me satisfied in the long run.

Honesty without being an arsehole is fine in my book. But maybe I'm an oddity.

Of course I want to know those things in addition to the nuts and bolts items of the product itself, but I'm not going to get my knickers all in a twist if the shop keeper tells me he doesn't stock something because it's not practical for him to stock it for whatever reasons.

The only "unacceptables" I have with retail staff is...

1. Being rude/obnoxious.

2. Lying to me.

3. Feigning knowledge.

4. Talking to me for the sake of talking to me because they think it'll make a sale.

I'm not naive to the fact the shop is only the last link in the chain of getting the product in to my hands, maybe that's why I typically like small shop keepers who are honest with me than the school/college kid working a summer job at a large chain who has no idea about anything acting like he's the fount of knowledge.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/02 07:56:11


 
   
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Nottingham

@skink I'd happily have such a conversation if I was an established customer and already had an ongoing dialogue with the person. On a first ever encounter though, I'd be unimpressed. Saying "sorry we don't stock gw because we had difficulties with them as a supplier. What game, faction do you collect?... Well if you like fantasy we have x,y, and z in store, let me show you them." would be perfectly fine. That would be much preferable to going into unnecessary specifics about those difficulties, and not even trying to make a positive from it.

Have a look at my P&M blog - currently working on Sons of Horus

Have a look at my 3d Printed Mierce Miniatures

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Full first company Crimson Fists
Zone Mortalis (unfinished)
Classic high elf bloodbowl team 
   
Made in au
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Having some tact is obviously important and probably the one area where 95% of retailers fail regardless of what approach they take to sales.

It can be hard to know what a specific customer needs to hear to get them to purchase something and it's not going to be the same thing from one customer to the next, and there might be nothing you say can achieve a sale.

To me the greatest sin the FLGS mentioned in the OP committed was not guiding to alternatives. If you're going to bad mouth a product that you don't carry you want to make sure the customer still has your attention long enough to describe the products you do carry. But to me it's not automatically a bad thing for a shop keeper to talk about nuts and bolts things outside the realm of actual product details if it can help build an understanding between the customer and the shop keeper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/02 11:15:38


 
   
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In a van down by the river

I see both sides of that point. On the one, I don't mind a store owner engaging in a conversation about a supplier. I wouldn't expect a rant about how they're the leading cause of cancer and have to import puppies to kick, but a "I stopped ordering from them because they kept shorting me on my orders and ticking off my customers" wouldn't be out of line. I've heard many a good rant about various suppliers, and more than a few veiled complaints, but these are stores that I'm reasonably well-known at sometimes having been a customer for almost multiple decades.

That brings me to the other side and why, in this circumstance, I side with the "unprofessional" camp and that is that Myrm was new to that store. If you want to commiserate with long-time customers that's fine; at some point you become more ersatz friends than straight vendor-consumer. When you don't know someone from Adam is the time to bite back on being "too" sociable and having a kvetch. I would say that extends to just having people in the store you don't know, as people who are new are usually not deaf and I've overhead some really unprofessional and simply cruel rants from store employees about non-present customers. That on/off switch can be tricky, but that's kind of the job; balancing the "I don't really want to know you" (which is...generally true of most humans when presented with any random member of society) with the "I really want your money" (again, true of most humans).

However, game stores are, in my limited experience, second only to hair stylists in the realm of unsolicited ranting and gossip. Not sure if stores for other hobbies (e.g. - a bike shop or golf store) have similar environments though.
   
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I think that's a fair point. Like hair dressers or barbers, a typical customer is usually at a (relatively small) hobby store for an extended period of time. And you are usually in conversation distance of the store owner. It's a different environment from many other stores. And you probably would see the same thing in other stores with a similar environment. EG I could quite easily imagine a bike store owner ranting about how say, Rayleigh have screwed them over on repair parts ordering yet again to a new customer.
   
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 Krinsath wrote:
However, game stores are, in my limited experience, second only to hair stylists in the realm of unsolicited ranting and gossip. Not sure if stores for other hobbies (e.g. - a bike shop or golf store) have similar environments though.
I think it tends to occur in any store where the person behind the counter is actually interested and knowledgeable about the product enough to want to talk about it beyond just wanting to sell it. Most other stores the person serving you probably only has a passing interest in the product or may have had an interest which got killed by trying to actually sell it. When it comes to hobby related stores, the person behind the counter are usually huge enthusiasts.

From what I understand many hobby distributors are pretty crappy as well, probably doesn't help, lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/02 13:10:03


 
   
Made in ca
Lord of the Fleet






Halifornia, Nova Scotia

Davor wrote:

TL;DR

So GW acts professional and we call them inhumane and we have someone who acts human but call them unprofessional. So what do we want then as customers? Hyporicts we are.


Being human and professional are not mutually exclusive.

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