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Made in us
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






So. With the Cabals spell, how many weapons do I get to shoot, as it states I get to make a shooting attack.

Also, would the model under the effects still benefit from blessings from its own army and would it keep rules from its formation/ detachment?
   
Made in fr
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






To the first question, i don't know, but I would say all weapons.
To the second question, yes, absolutely.
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

When a unit makes a shooting attack they go through steps 1-7 of the Shooting Sequence, so it would be all eligible models in the unit firing.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
To the second question, yes, absolutely.


Per RAW I'm not so sure on this. Blessings I think would be retained, as while they target only friendly units this becomes irrelevant once the power is in effect even if the unit is no longer treated as friendly. Detachment and Formation rules I have trouble with, as they could be said to no longer belong to the Detachment or Formation they were originally in.

HIWPI though would be that yes, they retain their usual bonuses.
   
Made in fr
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






as they could be said to no longer belong to the Detachment or Formation they were originally in

I see nothing that suggest this reading. A model cannot 'no longer belong to its detachment of formation' and all their benefit apply at all time, unless (this is important) the benefit rule says something like "in your shooting phase", in which case obviously the opponent cannot claim it. But if it simply says "in the shooting phase" or has no restriction at all, then it's okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the first question, I would say all, definitely. The spell says you can make "a shooting attack" with the targeted unit. "A" shooting attack from a unit involves all the available weapons.
In any unit they may be different weapon configurations, like two models having flamers while the other have lasguns. They all partake in one shooting attack. So I see no difference when a model has itself two weapons and can shoot with both.

(But there is at least one special case: you could not make an anchored Stormsurge fire twice each of its weapons, since this is clearly another shooting attack.)

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/07/31 14:52:47


 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
I see nothing that suggest this reading. A model cannot 'no longer belong to its detachment of formation' and all their benefit apply at all time, unless (this is important) the benefit rule says something like "in your shooting phase", in which case obviously the opponent cannot claim it. But if it simply says "in the shooting phase" or has no restriction at all, then it's okay.


I'm not sure I agree. Detachments are selected and filled with units from the player's army. If we are told it is treated as a unit in another army for a specific purpose, without being explicitly told as much how do we know it still counts as a unit in its initial army and formation/detachment?

If it's somehow part of both then that causes issues for example in terms of considering both the player and the other player's units as Friendly, meaning it effectively could not select any viable target without a third player...

The argument is practically moot, of course, because we agree on how it should be played.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 06:05:33


 
   
Made in fr
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






Then we can only agree that we disagree about the significance of the rules in general. In my view, being part of a detachment is not affected by what happens in the game; on the contrary, what happens in the game is affected by who is in which detachment.
For your reading to be correct, we have to "be explicitly told" about it, not for mine. Nothing nowhere suggests that a unit can "leave" its detachment or count as not being in its detachment anymore, as if enemy Dark reapers could lose the +1BS bonus from their formation "temporarily". For me that's absurd, it's confusing the different "levels" of the game.

When the rule says "as though it was part of your army" , it just implies that I can treat enemy units as enemy of this controlled unit so it does not shoot at his friends.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/08/01 08:11:05


 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






I agree with RenegadeKorps's reasoning as well.

While not a direct precedent, GW's recent FAQs (specifically the ones that deal with deploying "like deepstrike") imply that when they say to treat it "as" something without explicitly saying it is, then you are not suppose to assume that the unit actually changed. In this case, to be treated "as though it was part of your army" simply means "as if it was your unit for the moment", not that it temporarily becomes part of your army (just like how if a unit teleports and returns to play as if they just deepstriked, they don't actually count as deepstriking from reserves and have the Deepstrike rules.)

That said, I would assume the unit acts exactly as it would if it was it's owner's Shooting phase; i.e: able to use any one-use weapons (which could be trolltastic if you used it on a Stormsurge that hasn't fired off any missiles yet) and be subjected to any blessings or wargear buffs.

The only thing I would be iffy about is the activation of any rules "in the shooting phase" since you're only making a shooting attack, not treating it as if you owned it for the entire phase. (personally I say no).

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in fr
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






Actually, since it would be in the psychic phase, no rule or benefit having effect "in the shooting phase" could be claimed (like some Tau signature systems for example).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/01 17:44:02


 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Like the Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite?

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller






 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I agree with RenegadeKorps's reasoning as well.

While not a direct precedent, GW's recent FAQs (specifically the ones that deal with deploying "like deepstrike") imply that when they say to treat it "as" something without explicitly saying it is, then you are not suppose to assume that the unit actually changed. In this case, to be treated "as though it was part of your army" simply means "as if it was your unit for the moment", not that it temporarily becomes part of your army (just like how if a unit teleports and returns to play as if they just deepstriked, they don't actually count as deepstriking from reserves and have the Deepstrike rules.)

That said, I would assume the unit acts exactly as it would if it was it's owner's Shooting phase; i.e: able to use any one-use weapons (which could be trolltastic if you used it on a Stormsurge that hasn't fired off any missiles yet) and be subjected to any blessings or wargear buffs.

The only thing I would be iffy about is the activation of any rules "in the shooting phase" since you're only making a shooting attack, not treating it as if you owned it for the entire phase. (personally I say no).


Funny you mention a storm surge. First run with this list against tau. Made A storm surge kill a buddy surge (separate) by this spell and some Psi-screams.
   
Made in fr
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Like the Multi-Spectrum Sensor Suite?

Yes.
   
 
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