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Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Or move windriders to Fast Attack, and put back restrictions on weapon selection.

The model kit has all scatterlasers. That's not happening. Windriders have been troops forever. That's not happening. Accept that the era of troops as less powerful is over.

Yes, and rerollable 2++ saves wasn't going to happen either.

And WHFB being uttelry scrapped wasn't going to happen.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Or move windriders to Fast Attack, and put back restrictions on weapon selection.

The model kit has all scatterlasers. That's not happening. Windriders have been troops forever. That's not happening. Accept that the era of troops as less powerful is over.

Just because each model comes with a heavy weapon doesnt mean the rules need to support it. There'a lots of things that cant use all the bits they come with for every model.

Martel732 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I really wish they'd get rid of this FoC and Formation shenanigans in the next edition. These just tossed balance out the window and also made the whole "battlefield role" classification completely useless.

I remember back in 4th edition that the Store Manager told me that Troops were intentionally meant to be worse than anything comparable in the HS or FA slots because they represent the army's bread and butter; the most numerous units they had access to. FA and HS were suppose to be limited either due to training or lack of equipment, while Elites were suppose to be Troops with the drawbacks removed for a higher price. That was the inherent balance. While FoC shifts did happen, it's usually done as the exception, rather than the rule and was very few and far in between (and often came with restrictions for other stuff, like the original Deathwing being ONLY able to field Terminators, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts rather than just Terminators as Troops).

I know that cuts down on the creativity but honestly half of the problems with the game would be solved if these weren't an issue. That and squadrons of vehicles/ units of MCs outside of Guard and Tyranids respectively.

Scatterbikes piss all over that theory any way. Since we are stuck with them, troops are no longer remotely balanced, so we might as well have formations.

Best way to solve that without re-re-releasing another Eldar codex would be for 8th ed to make only Infantry Troops scoring. That would rebalance a ton of armies, notably CSM, Orks, Nids & DE who only have (or most often field) Infantry Troops. Suddenly you need those Guardians on foot to win games.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just because each model comes with a heavy weapon doesnt mean the rules need to support it. There'a lots of things that cant use all the bits they come with for every model.

That only applies to old kits. To my knowledge, every kit released in the last few years has been supplied with the ability to use every bit. There have even been upgrades dropped due to not having the option on an old kit, or new options made available because the old kit have the bit on the sprue.

-

I don't know what 8th edition will bring, but as long as the new flier rules aren't in it, I'm keen to see what it is.

Martel732 wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Or move windriders to Fast Attack, and put back restrictions on weapon selection.

The model kit has all scatterlasers. That's not happening. Windriders have been troops forever. That's not happening. Accept that the era of troops as less powerful is over.

Best way to solve that without re-re-releasing another Eldar codex would be for 8th ed to make only Infantry Troops scoring. That would rebalance a ton of armies, notably CSM, Orks, Nids & DE who only have (or most often field) Infantry Troops. Suddenly you need those Guardians on foot to win games.

MAKE INFANTRY GREAT AGAIN!

 kronk wrote:
I don't know what 8th edition will bring, but as long as the new flier rules aren't in it, I'm keen to see what it is.

I'm sure they will be. I'm not looking forward to that at all.

Honestly, I don't think the 7th ruleset is bad at all. I think it needs some tweaking and FAQ support, but I suppose they're actually working on the latter.

For example - I really like the 7th ed psychic phase. I think it's a lot more interesting than the old "roll a 10 or below" for everything, which was pretty boring. I also know some people don't like random psychic powers, but if you could pick your powers, I don't think that would be great either. Everyone would always pick the same, best ones, and build their entire army around them.

E.G.: Oh, you picked rerollable saves, invisibility and gate of infinity for your deathstar unit? that's cool. Next game please.

That being said, there are individual facets of codexes that are annoying to deal with. But an 8th edition rulebook won't fix broken/weak codexes.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


For example - I really like the 7th ed psychic phase. I think it's a lot more interesting than the old "roll a 10 or below" for everything, which was pretty boring. I also know some people don't like random psychic powers, but if you could pick your powers, I don't think that would be great either. Everyone would always pick the same, best ones, and build their entire army around them.

E.G.: Oh, you picked rerollable saves, invisibility and gate of infinity for your deathstar unit? that's cool. Next game please.

Right, so how do you feel if your opponent randomly rolls those instead?

Point is, they should have made them all equally worth taking, but instead, they decided to take the easy route and let the dice decide. Its simply lazy, bad game design.

Two things:

a. GW has (IIRC) stated in each of the RBs 4e through 7e, to make or modify the rules to suit you.

b. In casual games, it is easy to look at the guy's army and say, "No thanks" (like 3 WraithKnights in a 6e army). But in tourney play, organizers have put limitations on the wildly blowing hurricane that is GW's plethoria of choices.

I'm an ITC participant for a few years now, and I think having that stable format, with an FAQ made in mind for the mid-level player, and *voted* on, by ITC members, cuts through a lot of the criticism in this thread.

So,
'a', GW says to use the rules how you like and
'b', there has been and continues to be, a big, concerted effort (since 6e) to make the game ... uniform and playable and enjoyable for mid-level players.

I think of the rules and the codices like a big banquet. Lotsa yummy stuff. Too much. There is too much to cram into one dinner/game. So have some of this and that. Leave that thing off your plate for now. And maybe next time, try some of the wild stuff (Super Heavies, e.g.).

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:


For example - I really like the 7th ed psychic phase. I think it's a lot more interesting than the old "roll a 10 or below" for everything, which was pretty boring. I also know some people don't like random psychic powers, but if you could pick your powers, I don't think that would be great either. Everyone would always pick the same, best ones, and build their entire army around them.

E.G.: Oh, you picked rerollable saves, invisibility and gate of infinity for your deathstar unit? that's cool. Next game please.

Right, so how do you feel if your opponent randomly rolls those instead?

Point is, they should have made them all equally worth taking, but instead, they decided to take the easy route and let the dice decide. Its simply lazy, bad game design.

It's not fun, I'll admit, but at least the powers aren't guaranteed. I'd be all for balancing the powers and making them all equally good, but is that even possible?

Let me put it another way - in the days of when you could pick your powers - if you fought space wolves, for example, guess what they brought? Priest in a drop with jaws of the world wolf. Every time.

I'll be honest, that era was ending right as I was starting, but maybe older veterans can tell me - If you could pick your powers, did people always bring the same powers? Or were all the powers perfectly balanced and equally good?

Powers were usually bought as individual upgrades with their own prices. That said, yeah, pretty much the same powers were picked every time.

Psychic powers you can pick and pay for are just additional wargear choices. The best combinations get picked over and over, and the others are ignored.

I like the random Psychic powers. It makes things interesting as it makes it harder for someone to base thier entire army around a single power interaction.

For example ,If ALL Tyranid Pskers could pick invisibility, they absolutely would, and they would get fielded all the time. There would be endless crying an moaning about how unfair it was, it's broken, and OP.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

It's not fun, I'll admit, but at least the powers aren't guaranteed. I'd be all for balancing the powers and making them all equally good, but is that even possible?

Well, yeah, anything is possible! Seriously though, yes, it is very much possible, especially if you price them and make the psykers pay for the powers (with a reasonable drop in their initial cost to compensate). That way you can have awesome powers that cost a lot, or decent powers that are cheap. Going for a no cost way would be more difficult as every power would have to be equally useful depending on the army.

Let me put it another way - in the days of when you could pick your powers - if you fought space wolves, for example, guess what they brought? Priest in a drop with jaws of the world wolf. Every time.

Right, which isn't an argument for making powers random - its an argument for balancing powers. Either by nerfing the bejeebus out of the offending power, or by tacking a +50pts cost to it while the weaker powers cost a mere +5 or +10pts (numbers pulled out my ass for demonstrative purpose only).

The solution for bad balance isn't to randomize it. The solution is to balance it.

I'll be honest, that era was ending right as I was starting, but maybe older veterans can tell me - If you could pick your powers, did people always bring the same powers? Or were all the powers perfectly balanced and equally good?

Yeah, depending on the codex, there were definitely auto-takes. I think the Marine codex was the most reasonable. You'd generally pick Null Zone as your first pick, then you'd pick a second based on what kind of army you were running, as there were great secondary powers. Stuff like Gate of Infinity was great for foot slogging deathstars, while vortex of doom was good for a risky powerful shot, and there was that solid shooting one of S4 AP2 template or assault a lot I think. Point is, that one particular codex wasn't actually that bad under a system of pick your power. Wolves were pretty bad though.

Anyways, as I stated earlier, the conclusion you should be coming to is to balance the powers, not let the dice decide for you.

 adamsouza wrote:
For example ,If ALL Tyranid Pskers could pick invisibility, they absolutely would, and they would get fielded all the time. There would be endless crying an moaning about how unfair it was, it's broken, and OP.

So you get rid of invisibility. You take the other powers and make them codex-specific like they used to be with an appropriate points cost.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
For example ,If ALL Tyranid Pskers could pick invisibility, they absolutely would, and they would get fielded all the time. There would be endless crying an moaning about how unfair it was, it's broken, and OP.

So you get rid of invisibility. You take the other powers and make them codex-specific like they used to be with an appropriate points cost.

Exacally, then you make psykers reliable and not too overpowered, whereas now psykers are either an abyssmal waste of points (gotta get that mental fortitude tho) or an overpowered force of bullshité incarnate (hmmm, could have sworn that wraithknight was visible last time I checked) it also makes it hard to build lists that somewhat rely on certain powers without spamming the same psyker

 greyknight12 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
For example ,If ALL Tyranid Pskers could pick invisibility, they absolutely would, and they would get fielded all the time. There would be endless crying an moaning about how unfair it was, it's broken, and OP.

So you get rid of invisibility. You take the other powers and make them codex-specific like they used to be with an appropriate points cost.

Then they go back to being unrelieable wargear.

Plus alot of the codex specific powers were crap. Blood Angel Librarians come to mind.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

It's not fun, I'll admit, but at least the powers aren't guaranteed. I'd be all for balancing the powers and making them all equally good, but is that even possible?

Well, yeah, anything is possible! Seriously though, yes, it is very much possible, especially if you price them and make the psykers pay for the powers (with a reasonable drop in their initial cost to compensate). That way you can have awesome powers that cost a lot, or decent powers that are cheap. Going for a no cost way would be more difficult as every power would have to be equally useful depending on the army.

With GW's "great" track record in that don't hold your breath.

Seriously you want balanced 40k, you say screw GW. Don't depend on GW to provide balanced 40k. They won't do that. Only way players can get balanced 40k is to dump GW from the equation(except for models) all together.

I'd quite like it if there were different Force Organization Charts based on points bands.

500-1000pts/1000-1500pts allows X amount of HQ, Elites, Heavy Support and Fast Attack slots, with a minimum amount of X troops.
1500+ or 2000+ would open up flyer and superheavy slots.

If you wanna disregard the Force Org or use Superheavies/Flyers in smaller games you can play Unbound. I don't really like the allies chart but since we're probably stuck with it, have Come the Apocalypse as Unbound only. This would allow for people to enjoy the "classic" version of 40k at typical points values for pickup games, while also leaving room for people who enjoy a lot of the apocalypse elements at higher points values. Wanna use an unfluffy army combo or a superheavy at skirmish level points? Play Unbound and discuss what you want to play with your opponent before the game, how it supposedly works now as written.

I'd just be happy if they toned down certain psychic powers and made footslogging close combat units viable without formation haxx again. Most of the abuses of 7th edition don't affect Horus Heresy which is what I mostly play, mostly to avoid said abuses.

Footslogging combat will not be viable until the power creep is beheaded.

Psychic powers get changed. It happens. I'm fine with Invisibility getting killed or nerfed to hell and back.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Footslogging combat will not be viable until the power creep is beheaded.

some minor changes could go a long way to restoring footslogging..or any really.. power back into close combat. Power creep wont ever NOT be a thing. a brand new codex will always be inherently stronger then the oldest one. but they dont have to go overboard (like they did with Eldar IMO)

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Footslogging combat will not be viable until the power creep is beheaded.

some minor changes could go a long way to restoring footslogging..or any really.. power back into close combat.

6+D6" run move would be a start. More ways to mitigate overwatch, or just a removal of overwatch would be better.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Footslogging combat will not be viable until the power creep is beheaded.

some minor changes could go a long way to restoring footslogging..or any really.. power back into close combat. Power creep wont ever NOT be a thing. a brand new codex will always be inherently stronger then the oldest one. but they dont have to go overboard (like they did with Eldar IMO)

There is a player at my club, a lovely gentleman who is great to play Bolt Action with, who plays Eldar.....
In his own words the only way to beat his army is to start on the back of the board with a hell of a lot of long ranged firepower and pray you go first.

Lets face it, the eldar where a massive mistake in 40K terms.

 nurgle5 wrote:
I'd quite like it if there were different Force Organization Charts based on points bands.

500-1000pts/1000-1500pts allows X amount of HQ, Elites, Heavy Support and Fast Attack slots, with a minimum amount of X troops.
1500+ or 2000+ would open up flyer and superheavy slots.

If you wanna disregard the Force Org or use Superheavies/Flyers in smaller games you can play Unbound. I don't really like the allies chart but since we're probably stuck with it, have Come the Apocalypse as Unbound only. This would allow for people to enjoy the "classic" version of 40k at typical points values for pickup games, while also leaving room for people who enjoy a lot of the apocalypse elements at higher points values. Wanna use an unfluffy army combo or a superheavy at skirmish level points? Play Unbound and discuss what you want to play with your opponent before the game, how it supposedly works now as written.

You get an Exalt. This is exactly what 40K needs. Lords of War, Superheavies, Flyers and GMCs should be reserved for larger scale battles, like 1500pts and up.
Make the difference between "structured play" and Unbound by making more restrictions and making CtA allies for Unbound only

-

 Selym wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Footslogging combat will not be viable until the power creep is beheaded.

some minor changes could go a long way to restoring footslogging..or any really.. power back into close combat.

6+D6" run move would be a start. More ways to mitigate overwatch, or just a removal of overwatch would be better.

That'd help a lot, I agree. I'd also like to see a return of the ol' 2+ to hit chance in CC, to me it seems like a needless de-clawing of elite melee troops. WS5 Khorne Berserkers are no more likely to hit a grot than a WS3 guardsman and that's disgusting.

Unrelated note but I kind of wish they'd get rid of the four power weapon variations too, having to decide between aesthetics and crunch really breaks my little heart, especially because taking power maces in Heresy is hilariously useless.

In the "one wish" thread, some seemed vehemently opposed to consolidating into close combat. I liked that rule and wish it back. Also how about bringing back the +1 ini for furious charge? Was that so op it had to be removed? Also fleet should be better. It's rather insignificant right now.

I would hate consolidating into CC. Once someone would get engaged, they could just pinball their way through the entire army. It swings the balance way too far back the other way. Plus, it'd only make deathstars even more powerful. So for every mediocre assault unit that would get a buff from it, there's be another totally overpowered assault death star getting significantly more powerful.

As much as I liked that rule, I gotta agree consolidating into combat was broken as hell. It made dedicated CC units unreasonably durable.

CC was fine in 5th edition where Power Weapons were all AP2, no overwatch and you knew how far you were gonna charge.

 ManSandwich wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Footslogging combat will not be viable until the power creep is beheaded.

some minor changes could go a long way to restoring footslogging..or any really.. power back into close combat.

6+D6" run move would be a start. More ways to mitigate overwatch, or just a removal of overwatch would be better.

That'd help a lot, I agree. I'd also like to see a return of the ol' 2+ to hit chance in CC, to me it seems like a needless de-clawing of elite melee troops. WS5 Khorne Berserkers are no more likely to hit a grot than a WS3 guardsman and that's disgusting.

Unrelated note but I kind of wish they'd get rid of the four power weapon variations too, having to decide between aesthetics and crunch really breaks my little heart, especially because taking power maces in Heresy is hilariously useless.

its doubly amusing because, with real weapons, a heavy mace is exactly what you would use against a heavily armored opponent, not a sword or axe, which really are terrible againdt heavy armor.