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Hi Everyone,

Foreword: Admins please delete this and redirect me if appropriate; I have trawled dakka for an appropriate thread but can't find.

I have recently started playing again and I'm having real trouble with what seems to be the most over discussed but never properly answered rule debate: Intervening model cover.

My question doesn't seem to be even discussed however so maybe it has a simple answer I'm missing. So here it is:

Assuming intervening models DO provide a 5+ cover save (regardless of the 25% issue, that's a whole other issue), does the cover save work both ways?

Scenario: A squad of Crisis battlesuits shoot through a squad of Termagaunts to hit a Tyranid Warrior. Then, the Tyranid warrior shoots through the squad of Termagaunts to hit the Battlesuits. Do BOTH firers receive a 5+ cover save from the intervening Termagaunts or is just the Tyranid Warriors?

Thanks very much for your help, really trying to clear this up. I understand this may be an issue where I'll just have to agree to a certain interpretation with my opponent which is fine.

:-)

Yes. Don't have the rulebook on me, but you can shoot through your own unit, but shooting through other units, enemy or your own, grants a cover save (assuming tactical marine height. It differs for monstrous creatures)

Intervening models provide a cover save if they partially obscure the targeted unit, or if you have see the targeted unit in a gap between the models of the intervening unit.

Most of the time, this will provide cover both ways, but not always, because of models of different heights.

If the termagants are very close to the warriors, then it's possible that the warriors are tall enough that when you draw their LoS to the crisis suits, they can completely see them without being obscured by the gaunts. It's a bit unlikely because the warriors are not that tall, and you would need all the gaunts to be very close.

However, it's not uncommon if you have a few drones in front of a riptide for example: the riptide can target an enemy unit without the drones providing cover (because his head is much higher in the air than the tip of the drones), but that same enemy unit would have to shoot through the drones when firing at the Riptide (because they slightly obscure the Riptide's legs), providing a cover save.

Always use True Line of Sight. That's all I'll say on the matter.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Always use True Line of Sight. That's all I'll say on the matter.

This.

You can't just assume that because a model had cover save from intervening models, the ones shooting at it will have the same cover from the targeted unit.

Example:


In the left situation, the Infantry is shooting at the MC. The obstacle (the red wall) is tall enough to give the MC a cover save.
In the right situation, the MC is shooting at the Infantry. The obstacle isn't tall enough to give the Infantry a cover save, as you can choose the point of view from the tallest point of the MC (as long as it's part of its main body - antennae, wings, etc don't count... I think).

That is one of the vagueries of the current LOS rules.

As LOS is any part of the firing model to any part of the target, your image with the ovals have either both of the models ignoring the red bar, or both gaining cover from it.

Basically both lines are Valid LOS lines for both units shooting. LOS can be drawn from the knees of the MC, through the bar to grant cover to the smaller model.


In previous editions we had LOS drawn from the eyes of the model(or at least an equivalent location); but now you can get shot from the toe.

I have a better example on my computer(and it might be in my dakka gallery) with a Dreadnaught on a hill firing at guardsmen on the ground with an intervening unit.

Edit 1: yep it is in my gallery.



Edit 2: and here is the from the side: