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Jrelly89 pretty sure no 'witch' was ever burned in Salem, they were all hanged.

A bit more on topic. If you ever walk into a shrinks office and he jumps to demonic possession. Smile, thank him for his time, politely leave and then call the medical board of the hospital he is associated with to report hesa fething nutter.

lonestarr777 wrote:
Jrelly89 pretty sure no 'witch' was ever burned in Salem, they were all hanged.

A bit more on topic. If you ever walk into a shrinks office and he jumps to demonic possession. Smile, thank him for his time, politely leave and then call the medical board of the hospital he is associated with to report hesa fething nutter.

Huh, interesting. Apparently it was primarily a European thing to burn them at the stake, but it says all but one of the Salem witches were hanged, the other was pressed to death for refusing to enter a plea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_for_witchcraft

http://www.history.com/news/ask-history/were-witches-burned-at-the-stake-during-the-salem-witch-trials

I find it interesting that Dr. Gallagher basically invokes HIPAA about why they can not film the exorcisms.

 Orlanth wrote:
Still exorcisms are rare as full possession is rare.

Oh aye, in the same way that Unicorns, Fairies and Kelpies are rare.

I wonder if this man's colleagues would describe him as a "leading Psychiatrist". I suspect not, or at least not anymore.

I'm just glad that stupidity like this is gradually being thrown into the dustbin of history.

The day humanity finally gets rid of all this religious rubbish cannot come too soon.

Haven't you guys seen This Is The End? Jonah Hill gets possessed. Not a character he plays, he himself gets possessed. Some real scary gak, yo. That documentary should warn everyone to not piss off demon spirits.

 jreilly89 wrote:

lonestarr777 wrote:
Jrelly89 pretty sure no 'witch' was ever burned in Salem, they were all hanged.

A bit more on topic. If you ever walk into a shrinks office and he jumps to demonic possession. Smile, thank him for his time, politely leave and then call the medical board of the hospital he is associated with to report hesa fething nutter.

Huh, interesting. Apparently it was primarily a European thing to burn them at the stake, but it says all but one of the Salem witches were hanged, the other was pressed to death for refusing to enter a plea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_for_witchcraft

http://www.history.com/news/ask-history/were-witches-burned-at-the-stake-during-the-salem-witch-trials

If only science had been advanced enough to realize corn fungus is a hallucinogen back in Salem...

I've got a question that I hopefully present well. All posters except one are saying this guy is crazy. But if that's the case shouldn't all religious people be considered crazy. I mean this guy is just talking about the evil version of God/angels. The bible has the devil/daemons in it. So If a person believes in god/angels don't they kinda have to believe in the devil/daemons. After all its all in the same book.

yellowfever wrote:
I've got a question that I hopefully present well. All posters except one are saying this guy is crazy. But if that's the case shouldn't all religious people be considered crazy. I mean this guy is just talking about the evil version of God/angels. The bible has the devil/daemons in it. So If a person believes in god/angels don't they kinda have to believe in the devil/daemons. After all its all in the same book.

Believing in god, angels, the devil, and even demons, doesn't not require us to believe in demonic possession, especially not in a modern world where our understanding of mental illness has advanced beyond assuming bizarre behaviors are the result of spirits and curses. Plus Anneliese Michel died, The Demon Murder Trial might as well be the definition of a three ring circus, and unlike the idea of God or the devil existing transcendent of human experience, demonic possession suggests a phenomena that should be observable yet has consistently failed to pan out.

The real question is, how do we get Demonic Possession into the mechanics for a Modern wargame?

Oh sorry, I thought I was in the Game Design section for a moment.

yellowfever wrote:
I've got a question that I hopefully present well. All posters except one are saying this guy is crazy. But if that's the case shouldn't all religious people be considered crazy. I mean this guy is just talking about the evil version of God/angels. The bible has the devil/daemons in it. So If a person believes in god/angels don't they kinda have to believe in the devil/daemons. After all its all in the same book.

This is a valid point. The primary reason we don't say that all religious people are crazy is social rules about being polite to people. It's ok to say whatever you like about minority religious groups that are "weird enough" to be considered acceptable targets, but you'd better not be rude to the majority. So even if you can make the argument that mainstream beliefs are just as unreasonable or irrational you're risking a ban for a rule #1 violation if you call anyone crazy over it.

Also, for the word "crazy" to have any meaning it has to involve more than holding an irrational belief. The line should be drawn at whether or not a particular irrational belief has a negative effect on a person's life and/or meaningfully impairs their ability to function. A person with a vague sense of "angels sometimes protect us" might post "praise Jesus!" on a news story about a person surviving a horrible accident, but they're probably going to function just fine in everyday life. The guy in the OP is letting their irrational belief have much more of an impact on their life, to the point of arguably destroying their professional qualifications. There's pretty clearly a difference between the two situations, and calling them both "crazy" just makes it a meaningless label.

yellowfever wrote:
I've got a question that I hopefully present well. All posters except one are saying this guy is crazy. But if that's the case shouldn't all religious people be considered crazy. I mean this guy is just talking about the evil version of God/angels. The bible has the devil/daemons in it. So If a person believes in god/angels don't they kinda have to believe in the devil/daemons. After all its all in the same book.

All religious people are not literalists. Additionally, there is a whole school of thought that these events happened in the past, but not afterwards or not until the end of times.

Much of this stuff is newer than we think. Indeed, the early church stated that witches didn't exist and that belief in such would be heresy. Ironically, it was the Romans who were very anti-witch and had laws against witchcraft. Likewise, modern concepts of punitive Hell borrow heavily from the Roman concept of the Underworld and is noticeably absent from the Old and New Testament and didn't really develop until the 2nd and 3rd centuries. It is astounding how much heresy and paganism has slipped into modern Christianity!

yellowfever wrote:
All posters except one are saying this guy is crazy.

I don't recall anyone saying he was 'crazy'. Being unreliable and/or foolish and being mentally ill are different afflictions.

Some people also just make their living in Academia by being contrarian. Every field and every topic has at least one resident nut who says things that make no sense.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Still exorcisms are rare as full possession is rare.

Oh aye, in the same way that Unicorns, Fairies and Kelpies are rare.

I wonder if this man's colleagues would describe him as a "leading Psychiatrist". I suspect not, or at least not anymore.

Kelpies are NOT rare.

They are just another bats*** insane breed of dog.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Still exorcisms are rare as full possession is rare.

Oh aye, in the same way that Unicorns, Fairies and Kelpies are rare.

Practicing exorcists with a work record exist, records of exorcisms conducted exist.
Any evidence for unicorns?

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

I wonder if this man's colleagues would describe him as a "leading Psychiatrist". I suspect not, or at least not anymore.

Because he speaks his mind based on long observations? I would hope that those with genuine scientific minds would not hand wave and shut out a claim frtom a fellow professional without counter evidence.

 Daemonhammer wrote:
How we can live in the 21th century and still have people believe in demonic possessions is completely beyond me.

Because deliverance from demons often has better results at curing some conditions than conventional medicine does.


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yellowfever wrote:
I've got a question that I hopefully present well. All posters except one are saying this guy is crazy. But if that's the case shouldn't all religious people be considered crazy. I mean this guy is just talking about the evil version of God/angels. The bible has the devil/daemons in it. So If a person believes in god/angels don't they kinda have to believe in the devil/daemons. After all its all in the same book.

Belief in the existence of evil spirits is a part of mainstream Christianity and the other Abrahamic faiths. I cant speak for any other faith system, ask someone else.

There is no difference between believing in prayer and believing in deliverance, or spiritual warfare. The charismatic churches don't do 'exorcisms' I use the term because it is the one that most secular forum members will be familiar with. Deliverance ministry is just another form of prayer, and spiritual protection is a common point of prayer. Even in the template prayer, the Lords Prayer, 'deliver us from the evil one' is a key line.

Show me these records of exorcism. Have they been recorded? I need evidence Orlanth, not hearsay.

 jmurph wrote:
And a longer article by Gallagher on possession:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/07/01/as-a-psychiatrist-i-diagnose-mental-illness-and-sometimes-demonic-possession/

As a psychiatrist, I diagnose mental illness. Also, I help spot demonic possession.

How a scientist learned to work with exorcists.

By Richard Gallagher

July 1
Richard Gallagher is a board-certified psychiatrist and a professor of clinical psychiatry at New York Medical College. He is at work on a book about demonic possession in the United States.

Guys, guys, guys,this is totally legit! This is a tell all confession of a troubled man! A "shocking" "expose" about "demonic possession!" Buy his book to learn more! In stores soon!

 Orlanth wrote:

Practicing exorcists with a work record exist, records of exorcisms conducted exist.
Any evidence for unicorns?

There are practicing homeopaths as well, that doesn't mean that their 'work' is in any way real. Records for the conduct of exorcisms in no way provides evidence for deamonic possession.

If there was any actual evidence for daemonic possession then it would be an accepted scientific fact. That's how science works.

 chromedog wrote:

Kelpies are NOT rare.

They are just another bats*** insane breed of dog.

I wasn't aware of the dog's existence. I was talking about the murderous horse shaped beastie that drags people to their death in lochs. My granny claims that she saw one so they must be real, right?

They're quite an old (well, for us) Australian breed of livestock dog. They're pretty much the other breed used apart from the "blue" (and red - which is a dog/dingo hybrid breed).

Cattle/sheep, that sort of thing. Hardworking but they need to be exercised a LOT or they get bored and will destroy your yard.

I am open to the concept of possession. In the same way I am open to the existence of aliens, icthyosaurs, and psychics. In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if there turned out to be some grain of truth to it, but I'd be surprised to hear that it is what popular culture conceives of it as being.

So if it turned out aliens visited Earth, I could accept that, but I'd be surprised if they turned out to hang around backwater America anally probing redneck farmers. I could accept it if it turned out there was some kind of transdimensional ethereal entity capable of reaching across time/space to puppet things, but I'd be very surprised if it turned out to be some red dude with horns who cackled evilly and read the Bible backwards out of some perverse desire to ape relatively contemporary Christian mythology.

One should never have a completely closed mind on anything. But by the same measure, a truly neutral observer should try and isolate and evaluate without presumption. This bloke says it's 'the devil's work', which means he's already viewing things through a modern Christian lens/bias to begin with, thus discounting him as an appropriate authority or personage to investigate the phenomena.

If he's this convinced of possession, he should get a crew of a dozen odd scientists and doctors from Harvard, Cambridge, and Todai together to isolate, interrogate, and perform appropriate tests upon the possessed subjects without him present. Then we can begin to evaluate what sort of security threat these beings possess, and what forms of knowledge can be extracted from them.

Or he could just, y'know, publish an article on a christian website. Because that's totally the way to convince the world of the existence of an undocumented phenomena.

Who you gonna call...

https://www.demon-slayer.org

 Orlanth wrote:
Why say that. Demonology is standard mainstream religion. Jesus talked about hell and demons a lot of the time, it was his third most visited topic of his ministry after salvation and God. Many medical professionals are religious and can hold those beliefs without being targeted for ridicule. Atheism is not a free pass to abuse someone with a different worldview. By speaking out Dr Gallagher is in danger of discrimination despite there being no valid reason to suspect he is unable to conduct his duties properly.

This has nothing to do with atheism, I don't know why you brought that up. This is about science and non-science. Whether a person believes in some non-science because their cat told them or because it is a stated belief of a mainstream religion doesn't matter, it remains non-science.

And so this story remains the warning it was earlier - even very well credentialed people can believe some crazy nonsense and so don't just accept something because a person has a degree.


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yellowfever wrote:
I've got a question that I hopefully present well. All posters except one are saying this guy is crazy. But if that's the case shouldn't all religious people be considered crazy. I mean this guy is just talking about the evil version of God/angels. The bible has the devil/daemons in it. So If a person believes in god/angels don't they kinda have to believe in the devil/daemons. After all its all in the same book.

I know a lot of Christians of various stripes, and none of them believe in literal demonic possession in which you have to perform rituals to cast a demon out of a person's body. Religion doesn't have to conflict with science and our understanding of the material world, and in mainstream religions for the most part it doesn't.

Where some people in a religion hold a religious belief that is in direct contrast with our scientific understanding, well it isn't anti-religious to point out that they are mistaken. It is pro-science.


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 Peregrine wrote:
This is a valid point. The primary reason we don't say that all religious people are crazy is social rules about being polite to people.

Humility is also a big factor. Respect for other people even when they think something different from yourself, that's another reason why.

It's ok to say whatever you like about minority religious groups that are "weird enough" to be considered acceptable targets, but you'd better not be rude to the majority.

No, it's never okay to bash someone's religion.

 sebster wrote:

It's ok to say whatever you like about minority religious groups that are "weird enough" to be considered acceptable targets, but you'd better not be rude to the majority.

No, it's never okay to bash someone's religion.

I think hes talking about cults, not actual religions. Ie, scientology, stuff like that. Which generally *are* at least somewhat acceptable targets.

Laziness is how much of this can be perpetuated and spread.

Quite randomly I've been watching a few " creationalists" and "young earth" videos on youtube (recordings of preachers in the USA) and its interesting to note how they can use peer reviewed scientific articles in their presentations and videos. They can take a journal article which says one thing and outright lie about the content to those they preach to - however it stands because the majority of people won't go read the source material and a majority of those who might try to will be unable to fully understand it as they won't have the required background in science (and lack the will to learn).


Demonic possession can thus spread because quotations and statements can be made by those in the know; or those with a Dr. before their name; and many people won't check the facts. They will hear "many documented events" but they won't go find them; they won't go ask about them or review them or undertake any assessment. Thus the lie can spread.

If demonic possession were possible and if it were a real thing there'd be evidence; there'd be repeated examples of it happening time and time again which could be observed and studied - especially in today's world where education and study are prevalent - this isn't the Middle Ages where only the elite can read, write and study.

That there is one person against a sea of other professionals making such a claim is likely proof that its not true; that he's got no real evidence to show that proves outright and that is not the result of some other condition of symptom or cause.



That he's writing a book is about all the info one needs. People like this are often as not, well aware of the lies they perpetuate; but they do so because they know its a very easy way to sell a product and make money. They can generate a huge income on very little actual work and it doens't matter if people disagree - or even argue loudly against it - because at the end of the day that is all publicity and they know some who listen will still believe them; will still buy the book/DVD/whatever.


USA seems to also be very susceptible to these kind of situations; more so than many other western and developed nations. This I think highlights how the education system is under-developed or poorly executed and furthermore likely tax breaks and ease of gaining profit within the system that thus promotes these types of situation and cult followings.


Sadly its my view that such changes to protect people form charlatans such as this won't happen until the education system can improve for a few generations.

It's worth noting that it's not simply a failing of the educational system. There is a very strong anti-intellectual sentiment prevalent in many cultural conservatives. It begins with a hostility towards "liberal" academia and ends in a pretty thorough rejection of critical thinking and the scientific method.

 jmurph wrote:
It's worth noting that it's not simply a failing of the educational system. There is a very strong anti-intellectual sentiment prevalent in many cultural conservatives. It begins with a hostility towards "liberal" academia and ends in a pretty thorough rejection of critical thinking and the scientific method.

This. Once it gets to that end point there is also very little you can do to turn it back. Just look at anti-vax groups. It doesn't matter how often their claims are shown to be false, how often the "studies" they rely on are proven to be fundamentally flawed, they will continue to believe that they are right and in fact may even further entrench their position.

I still think part of the blame is in the education system; the anti-intellectual aspect is born partly of ignorance. To many of those people the science is basically as mystical and mysterious as magic thus its very easy for them to be scared by false information. Couple that to the fact that critical reading; evaluation and even basic understanding of statistics is generally either not taught or very poorly taught and its no surprise that people can be very easily deceived.

Trust is the other angle and certainly many big companies and medical groups have made huge blunders which people remember for a very long time. It's a separate issue, but I think one very hard to overcome when the former aspect makes so many options impossible.

Better teaching breaks down the barrier or at least makes people more open to basic understanding of what is going on. Of course that is hard to get through when parents are of a former poorly educated system and such why it can take a very long time for such thinking to be pushed out of the system.

A third reason is that the Bible is a bit boring so adding in apocrypha, shaky theology, Gnosticism, heresy and the like is totes exciting!

 sebster wrote:
....No, it's never okay to bash someone's religion.

We can still have legitimate criticism, challenge of privilege and insistence of a separation between religion and state though?