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Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





With the faq stating it is up to the player to decide the best save, can I intentionally choose the worst save? For instance if i want a unit to die KDK or unending host thingy from siege of Vraks?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, they say it's up to the player to decide which is "best". Hilariously, I believe you would be allowed to choose the worst save, since it's "best" to you under those circumstances.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Do remember though that it is best save available. So if you are in some 4+ cover and get hit with a bolter you cannot choose to use and fail your 5+ armor save, the AP says that save is not available.

But if you were in said 4+ cover and under an effect that grants a 6+ cover or invul save against that bolter you are free to choose the 6+ save.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in fr
Tough Traitorous Guardsman






Interesting.
So when you want your unit to die (it happened once, because my opponent would get a victory if my unit would fail the ensuing morale test but not if my unit was destroyed), you can now go to ground and claim the 6+ instead of whatever save you have.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 RenegadeKorps wrote:
Interesting.
So when you want your unit to die (it happened once, because my opponent would get a victory if my unit would fail the ensuing morale test but not if my unit was destroyed), you can now go to ground and claim the 6+ instead of whatever save you have.


Only if you're not fearless! If the unit was Khorne Berserkers that wouldn't have been an option .

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Honestly, no. I could understand how the best save for you could be to fail it but that's not how the rule is supposed to work. Think of it like this. GW is pushing for thematic battles. Your model would never voluntarily choose to die unless they were rushing in to save a comrade. Just because you need him to die doesn't mean you get to bend the wording. The faq let's you choose which is best in a certain scenario like 3+ vs 4+ rerollable. But a 4+ clearly better than 5+ or 6+ .
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

mhalko1 wrote:
Honestly, no. I could understand how the best save for you could be to fail it but that's not how the rule is supposed to work. Think of it like this. GW is pushing for thematic battles. Your model would never voluntarily choose to die unless they were rushing in to save a comrade. Just because you need him to die doesn't mean you get to bend the wording. The faq let's you choose which is best in a certain scenario like 3+ vs 4+ rerollable. But a 4+ clearly better than 5+ or 6+ .

Sorry, but the draft FAQ makes no such statement:

Q: Warhammer 40,000: The Rules states that a model gets ‘the advantage of always using the best available save’. Does that mean we have to use the numerically lowest save, or do we have the option of using any save we have?
A: The controlling player can use their discretion as to which of their model’s saves is ‘the best’.

This allows the controlling player to decide a 6+ save is better than a 2+ save.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






I actually had an interesting thing come up yesterday when i and a friend were preping for a game.

It was a 1850 game, and it was the first time i was running a Ravenwing command squad with a dark shroud. The topic of taking your best save led to me asking.

"So if i need to take my best save, since i have a dark shroud thats always going to be my 2++ rerollable jink, does that mean you can constantly force my command squad to jink and thus always fire snapshots?"

My friend, having played and been in the hobby for years, AND the store owner, was not sure as that would be a very interesting way to neuter a black knight or command squad. At the time we decided that jink falls outside of the Best save and can be taken as you choose. But its still technically your best save.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Except the controlling player decides what their best save is. So can't be forced to do anything any longer.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

As Nos has pointed out, the 'controlling player' is the player who controls the model (i.e., the player who has the model in his army). Its not the player whose turn it currently is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/08 16:18:24


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Backspacehacker wrote:
I actually had an interesting thing come up yesterday when i and a friend were preping for a game.

It was a 1850 game, and it was the first time i was running a Ravenwing command squad with a dark shroud. The topic of taking your best save led to me asking.

"So if i need to take my best save, since i have a dark shroud thats always going to be my 2++ rerollable jink, does that mean you can constantly force my command squad to jink and thus always fire snapshots?"

My friend, having played and been in the hobby for years, AND the store owner, was not sure as that would be a very interesting way to neuter a black knight or command squad. At the time we decided that jink falls outside of the Best save and can be taken as you choose. But its still technically your best save.


As stated, the FAQ gives the controlling player the permission to choose whichever they feel is "best", because what's best for you might change from time to time. In that situation, if you feel that against a certain attack that it's "better" to use your 3+ armour instead of 2+ rerollable jink, then you can do so. I'm not going to lie, it does lead to ridiculous outcomes such as what the OP put up, like purposefully using worse saves to ensure that a unit dies, but that does seem to be the heart of that rule. At the same time, a player who does this doesn't seem to have a heart, for it has been replaced with barbed iron that wracks at their insides with each beat and breath.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/08 16:18:30


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I don't know about the player needing a cold iron heart to actually use that ruling. In a casual environment, yeah I could see that player being a dick, but in a tournament, the goal tends to be to win. You don't give your opponents any ground and you take any advantage you can get, even if that advantage comes at the cost of a unit just to deny your opponent points.

Then again, I also came from a MTG tournament background where that was the standard thing that was done. So that may colour my reasoning for using it in tournaments. But definitely not a thing to do in a casual environment with friends unless you guys are trying to make each other better players by doing that kind of thing.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





The fact that this is an issue is ridiculous.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






In which direction?

Originally the rule was written as best numeric(at least in clear intention), it wasn't until we started getting all these re-rollable saves were the better statistical(and even that is often without a proper understanding of multiple instances) that certain lower numerics were less favourable to the rerollable saves.

Then the FAQ came along to make it completely discretionary(negating the rule completely); so here we are.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
In which direction?

Originally the rule was written as best numeric(at least in clear intention), it wasn't until we started getting all these re-rollable saves were the better statistical(and even that is often without a proper understanding of multiple instances) that certain lower numerics were less favourable to the rerollable saves.

Then the FAQ came along to make it completely discretionary(negating the rule completely); so here we are.

Actually the rule used to be you had to use the best, period, and defined the best. Rerollable Saves were present during this time, albeit, very very rare.

The definition of "best" still applies, but the language changed in 6th to you "have the advantage of always using the best", which is not as direct a statement as you "must always use the best". Cover Saves were then defined as requiring to use the best in a following paragraph after an example, in both 6th and 7th, while not including Armor or Invulnerable in that paragraph.

It is stupid and they should just say what they mean instead of trying to couch it in impressive language. But then, this portion of the forum would be relatively dead if that was the case.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






This was a lot simpler in 4th edition. They flat out told you to just pick whichever one you wanted (that was available of course). I have no clue why they changed it in 5th edition to "best save" since I can't really remember any unit that benefited from dying faster until 6th.

(for those curious, it's on page 25 of the 4th ed rulebook).

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Not as Good as a Minion





Astonished of Heck

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This was a lot simpler in 4th edition. They flat out told you to just pick whichever one you wanted (that was available of course). I have no clue why they changed it in 5th edition to "best save" since I can't really remember any unit that benefited from dying faster until 6th.

(for those curious, it's on page 25 of the 4th ed rulebook).

Only to get out of Charge range or another unit which shot harder.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Guess that is a valid tactic but I've never seen it used like that. People avoided shooting before a charge specifically to avoid putting a unit out of range, and others generally shot their best stuff at an enemy first, not the worst.

Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!


Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






4th also had the infinite-tall cylinder models(los), and forced shooting at the nearest enemy unit unless you could pass a ld test.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Or it was a vehicle.
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






MCs as well if I recall correctly.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




And I thought cylinder LOS was a point of contention anyway, along with people playing everythign as area terrain and getting "levels" wrong (as they only applied to close combat and shooting "over" vs "through") but its been long enough that I'm struggling

More rum needed (for reference - this stuff!
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






Yeah 4th was a mess that saw me rage-quit in favor of warmachine(until PP asked me to buy a 3rd copy of Prime while maintaining that this was not a new edition and then there was the horrid power creep).

The magic cylinder was the height of the model for targeting but then infinitely tall for blocking LOS, and then everytime we called GW rulesboyz(when they were still a thing) the response we got was "it works just like it did in 3rd".

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




4th was when I got back in

Rum then, rum now, is the answer!
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

mhalko1 wrote:
Your model would never voluntarily choose to die unless they were sacrificing themselves for the dark gods.
FTFY
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

 Selym wrote:
mhalko1 wrote:
Your model would never voluntarily choose to die unless they were sacrificing themselves for the dark gods.
FTFY

Look Out, Sir! begs to differ.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

Tzeentch changed the trajectory of the bullet at the last minute. Loyalists are cowards.
   
 
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