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There are millions of Americans who do not have a driver's license.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
Galef wrote: Every American adult I have ever spoken to has a Driver's License. How has voter ID not been a thing this entire time??????
Because there is no evidence that the single kind of fraud that voter ID laws can stop happens at any meaningful rate.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I'll say the same thing I always have, voter ID laws are pointless, and without automatically issued IDs, will stop more legitimate voters from voting than actual cases of impersonation.
The problem (well there's two) I saw is:
1) allowing you to sign an affidavit affirming your identity in lieu of providing an ID. You can't catch someone defrauding the vote here because they're signing a fake name and address that isn't their own. How you gonna track them down?
2) the amount of those opti scanner failing is alarming IMO. Something need to be done to address that.
The signature of the affadavit is compared to the signature on file. That is how Texas does it. I had to do that once.
But I am all for state issued ID to all adult citizens as a matter of course.
That's what we have here in MO. (Voter ID is coming though).
WIth MI, I can't find any reference on their state Secretary of State that they keep the registered voter rolls with signatures.
Maybe we can get some MI folks to chime in?
djones???
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Kilkrazy wrote: Voter ID is simple if the country has a national ID card.
Indeed.
We kinda do have a National ID card, but it doesn't have a photo ID - Social Security ID:
So, the infrastructure is there (SS office) to get new IDs, or simply slap a picture on the SS card (which I'm not recommending).
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feeder wrote: There are millions of Americans who do not have a driver's license.
Hope they ain't smokers or alcohol drinkers...
Or Plane/train riders...
Or, take a loan...
or... a gak, you know the rest.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/08 23:08:43
Co'tor Shas wrote: I'll say the same thing I always have, voter ID laws are pointless, and without automatically issued IDs, will stop more legitimate voters from voting than actual cases of impersonation.
The problem (well there's two) I saw is:
1) allowing you to sign an affidavit affirming your identity in lieu of providing an ID. You can't catch someone defrauding the vote here because they're signing a fake name and address that isn't their own. How you gonna track them down?
2) the amount of those opti scanner failing is alarming IMO. Something need to be done to address that.
The signature of the affadavit is compared to the signature on file. That is how Texas does it. I had to do that once.
But I am all for state issued ID to all adult citizens as a matter of course.
That's what we have here in MO. (Voter ID is coming though).
WIth MI, I can't find any reference on their state Secretary of State that they keep the registered voter rolls with signatures.
Maybe we can get some MI folks to chime in?
djones???
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Voter ID is simple if the country has a national ID card.
Indeed.
We kinda do have a National ID card, but it doesn't have a photo ID - Social Security ID:
So, the infrastructure is there (SS office) to get new IDs, or simply slap a picture on the SS card (which I'm not recommending).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
feeder wrote: There are millions of Americans who do not have a driver's license.
Hope they ain't smokers or alcohol drinkers...
Or Plane/train riders...
Or, take a loan...
or... a gak, you know the rest.
In MI I know that If I forget my ID, I can just declare I am who I say I am and then sign an affidavit and vote away.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I'll say the same thing I always have, voter ID laws are pointless, and without automatically issued IDs, will stop more legitimate voters from voting than actual cases of impersonation.
The problem (well there's two) I saw is:
1) allowing you to sign an affidavit affirming your identity in lieu of providing an ID. You can't catch someone defrauding the vote here because they're signing a fake name and address that isn't their own. How you gonna track them down?
2) the amount of those opti scanner failing is alarming IMO. Something need to be done to address that.
The signature of the affadavit is compared to the signature on file. That is how Texas does it. I had to do that once.
But I am all for state issued ID to all adult citizens as a matter of course.
That's what we have here in MO. (Voter ID is coming though).
WIth MI, I can't find any reference on their state Secretary of State that they keep the registered voter rolls with signatures.
Maybe we can get some MI folks to chime in?
djones???
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Voter ID is simple if the country has a national ID card.
Indeed.
We kinda do have a National ID card, but it doesn't have a photo ID - Social Security ID:
So, the infrastructure is there (SS office) to get new IDs, or simply slap a picture on the SS card (which I'm not recommending).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
feeder wrote: There are millions of Americans who do not have a driver's license.
Hope they ain't smokers or alcohol drinkers...
Or Plane/train riders...
Or, take a loan...
or... a gak, you know the rest.
In MI I know that If I forget my ID, I can just declare I am who I say I am and then sign an affidavit and vote away.
The important part is if they checked your signature... did they?
whembly wrote: But do you agree that that article isn't advocating for relaxing child labor laws ala, back in the day of sweatshops/coal mining?
So, using this article to hammer DeVoss that she's advocating for child labor, like in the olden times, is a stretch.
EDIT: Still patiently waiting for Ustrello for evidences that Sessions a racist...
Well, it doesn't look good for him.
As we discussed in May, The New Republic published a piece in 2002 on Sessions’ background, which included a stint as a U.S. Attorney, when his most notable prosecution targeted three civil rights workers, including a former aide to Martin Luther King Jr., on trumped up charges of voter fraud.
The piece added that Sessions, during his career in Alabama, allegedly called the NAACP “un-American” because, among other things, it “forced civil rights down the throats of people.”
A former career Justice Department official who worked with Sessions pointed to an instance in which he referred to a white attorney as a “disgrace to his race” for litigating voting rights cases on behalf of African Americans.
What’s more, Thomas Figures, a former assistant U.S. Attorney in Alabama and an African American, later said that during a 1981 murder investigation involving the Ku Klux Klan, Sessions was heard by several colleagues commenting that he “used to think they [the Klan] were OK” until he found out some of them were “pot smokers.” Sessions acknowledged making the remark, but once again claimed to have been kidding. Figures also remembered having heard Sessions call him “boy,” and once warned him to “be careful what you say to white folks.”
The Washington Post noted this morning that Sessions has denied making many of these and related comments, but when then-President Reagan nominated Sessions for the federal bench in 1986, the Senate nevertheless rejected him because of his controversial record on race.
The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights published a letter to Senate leaders yesterday on Sessions’ record, opposing his nomination and documenting many of his stated positions. Anyone who believes the Republican senator has a “strong civil rights record” might want to take a look.
Many of those were heresay. What did Sessions actually *do*. Again, I'd like to point out:
This is a guy who
a) supported Eric Holder’s attorney general nomination, one of the very few GOPers;
b) took the Ku Klux Klan to court in Alabama;
c) desegregated schools
d) involved in the prosecution of Henry Francis Hays for killing a black teenager, and made sure that he got the death penalty.
Traditionally, at least the Senate could block him... wait... no they can't! You can thank Harry Reid for that!
Besides... Rachel Maddow? She's just as bad as most of the Breibart writers...
The man who President-elect Donald Trump will nominate as the 84th attorney general of the United States was once rejected as a federal judge over allegations he called a black attorney “boy,” suggested a white lawyer working for black clients was a race traitor, joked that the only issue he had with the Ku Klux Klan was their drug use, and referred to civil rights groups as “un-American” organizations trying to “force civil rights down the throats of people who were trying to put problems behind them.”
You mean besides that?
Allegations? So now it's enough to say someone did something to make them guilty?
For that there's still military ID, student ID from state schools... Hell, on one loan I applied for, I used a library card as a secondary form of ID (requiring 2+ forms of ID, as well as a bill showing residence)
The only one that gets dicey is plane/train riders... at least for those trying to use something like a student ID.
As we speak, the Battleship Texas is firing up her boilers. This insult will not go unanswered.
(later on the Mississippii)
"Thats a really big log."
"Thats not a log. thats a abattleship!"
Sadly, Texas' flaw in her gun mounts has never been corrected, giving her subobtimal effective range. Ironically the Pennsylvania class had the same guns, but better mounts that didn't limit elevation as much.
whembly wrote: But do you agree that that article isn't advocating for relaxing child labor laws ala, back in the day of sweatshops/coal mining?
So, using this article to hammer DeVoss that she's advocating for child labor, like in the olden times, is a stretch.
EDIT: Still patiently waiting for Ustrello for evidences that Sessions a racist...
Well, it doesn't look good for him.
As we discussed in May, The New Republic published a piece in 2002 on Sessions’ background, which included a stint as a U.S. Attorney, when his most notable prosecution targeted three civil rights workers, including a former aide to Martin Luther King Jr., on trumped up charges of voter fraud.
The piece added that Sessions, during his career in Alabama, allegedly called the NAACP “un-American” because, among other things, it “forced civil rights down the throats of people.”
A former career Justice Department official who worked with Sessions pointed to an instance in which he referred to a white attorney as a “disgrace to his race” for litigating voting rights cases on behalf of African Americans.
What’s more, Thomas Figures, a former assistant U.S. Attorney in Alabama and an African American, later said that during a 1981 murder investigation involving the Ku Klux Klan, Sessions was heard by several colleagues commenting that he “used to think they [the Klan] were OK” until he found out some of them were “pot smokers.” Sessions acknowledged making the remark, but once again claimed to have been kidding. Figures also remembered having heard Sessions call him “boy,” and once warned him to “be careful what you say to white folks.”
The Washington Post noted this morning that Sessions has denied making many of these and related comments, but when then-President Reagan nominated Sessions for the federal bench in 1986, the Senate nevertheless rejected him because of his controversial record on race.
The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights published a letter to Senate leaders yesterday on Sessions’ record, opposing his nomination and documenting many of his stated positions. Anyone who believes the Republican senator has a “strong civil rights record” might want to take a look.
Many of those were heresay. What did Sessions actually *do*. Again, I'd like to point out:
This is a guy who
a) supported Eric Holder’s attorney general nomination, one of the very few GOPers;
b) took the Ku Klux Klan to court in Alabama;
c) desegregated schools
d) involved in the prosecution of Henry Francis Hays for killing a black teenager, and made sure that he got the death penalty.
Traditionally, at least the Senate could block him... wait... no they can't! You can thank Harry Reid for that!
Besides... Rachel Maddow? She's just as bad as most of the Breibart writers...
The man who President-elect Donald Trump will nominate as the 84th attorney general of the United States was once rejected as a federal judge over allegations he called a black attorney “boy,” suggested a white lawyer working for black clients was a race traitor, joked that the only issue he had with the Ku Klux Klan was their drug use, and referred to civil rights groups as “un-American” organizations trying to “force civil rights down the throats of people who were trying to put problems behind them.”
You mean besides that?
Allegations? So now it's enough to say someone did something to make them guilty?
You mean is witness testimony enough? Usually works for the courts. Next time kindly read through the rest of the thread and you'd see that quite a bit of the above is on congressional record.
Yes, it's a man who more then 30 years ago we railroaded out of the nomination. Some of those senators who rejected him are on the record years later saying they made the wrong choice, after working with him in the Senate, and getting to know him.
Allegations from over 30 years ago that he said some racist things is enough that he's going to be horrible. Yet in this very thread it's been argued that a Grand Wizard of the KKK was able to change his way of thinking so he should be forgiven.
The new law would allow them to cast a provisional vote without an ID, but they'd have to show up within ten days after the election to present their ID to officials before their provisional vote would be treated as an actual vote and counted. Plus additional fundings to provide free IDs and birth certificates.
If they make sure everybody gets the necessary ID, great. But guess which funding will be one of the first things on the chopping block when a budget shortfall comes? Also, would anyone else be surprised if suddenly, somehow, that office you're supposed to go to within ten days will be closed on days eight, nine, and ten?
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
djones520 wrote: Yes, it's a man who more then 30 years ago we railroaded out of the nomination. Some of those senators who rejected him are on the record years later saying they made the wrong choice, after working with him in the Senate, and getting to know him.
Allegations from over 30 years ago that he said some racist things is enough that he's going to be horrible. Yet in this very thread it's been argued that a Grand Wizard of the KKK was able to change his way of thinking so he should be forgiven.
Didn't know being a racist had an expiration date...
People do change, you know.
Sessions is better judged by what he's done in the last ten years, n not something he did thirty years ago.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Allegations from over 30 years ago that he said some racist things is enough that he's going to be horrible.
Well, if you insist on more recent actions against the common man, he's suggested that repealing the 14th Amendment would be a good thing, has wrongfully prosecuted civil rights activists for voter fraud, and frequently speaks out against immigrants, legal or otherwise.
In his favor, he did protest the use of torture by the Federal Government under George W Bush and voted in favor of the fairness in sentencing act.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
whembly wrote: No seb. You don't get to say it was a manipulation when in fact she said it and the other half bit doesn't change that context.
She used a gross over-generalization that half of trump's supporters are deplorable.
It was as clear as Romney's 47% remarks or Cruz's 'NY Values' spiel.
Stop defending the indefensible.
As I've said maybe a dozen times now that Clinton's comment was gak. Just get that clear.
But that doesn't give people free reign to pretend it was something other than what it was. Which you did, by removing the part where she called for empathy for Republicans who are buying in to Trump's promises because they don't like where their lives are going.
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Easy E wrote: As the Strategy should ALWAYS be. Didn't Rove teach the D's anything?
The question is, what DOES motivate the base? I think Saunders and trump are closer to it than Clinton. I have a feeling Ellison is closer to it than Dean.
We shall see, but I also have a feeling the D leadership won't have it figured out in time for 2020.
What motivates the base changes from election to election. Obama was hardly a radical, he didn't focus on income equality or trade or anything like that. But he won comfortably because his optimistic message suited an electorate that was beaten down by 8 years of Bush negativity.
This election Clinton's economic message of 'more of what Obama did' failed to cut through. Depending on how things go in the next couple of years Democrats will have to find a message. Possibly things could stagnate, the US is 'overdue' for a recession, in which case the best bet would be a 'steady hand on the ship'. Alternately the economy could continue its upswing, but also continue the trend of economic gains being centred at the top, and this would be made much more extreme by Trump's tax cut - in that case a more radical, redistributive campaigner would be the best bet.
Edit: Unrelated question. Any ideas how "Deplorables" managed to stick to Hilary while 'You Didn't Build That" and "Guns and God" didn't really stick to Obama electorally? What changed?
Maybe it did, but Obama was so far ahead it didn't matter?
Maybe none of these stick in any real way, like the roughly two dozen completely terrible things Trump said didn't stick. We just assume it stuck and mattered because Clinton lost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/09 02:56:21
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
whembly wrote: As for is it normal that a 23 yo who hasn't had a job? I live near the city, and the kids who work and go to school vs those who go to school+sports+outside hobby who don't get a real paycheck until after college is pretty stark. But it all depends on where you land on the economic spectrum. I see more kids working at younger age if they come from a poorer background that kids middle/upper class.
This is my experience as well. There's a reason I suppose that most family fortunes are reduced to nothing within three generations.
Does it generally allow 15 yo to get a part-time job while being able to maintain high academic standards? I don't really know...
Getting a job and maintaining your grades isn't really hard. I did it and I wasn't even being paid for what I did. I think the bigger issue is that the kind of work you can get as a school student is limited to jobs with little applicability outside the fast food and stocking shelves industry. I've known people who knew how to weld, take apart an engine, and carve a chair by the time they were fourteen, but it always came to them from their family business and that's one of the problems with the kind of jobs that pay well and don't require higher education; lots of nepotism. Which I'm not saying to badmouth those jobs or the people who work them, but that job market is really hard to break into because they tend to be family businesses and the people who work there are family or family friends.
I definitely think K-12 education is too focused now on getting kids into college and making their test scores meet arbitrary bench marks. I'd rather we loosened up the basic education system, and used it as more than just a gateway into college education/sports programs. We could really use more vocational training past high school, and public school could afford to loosen up a bit. I completely blame the current testing means for how poorly most people understand history in this country. You can't teach someone how to be analytic and critical while focusing on getting them to produce a standardized test answer. It produces a very dumbed down version of our history that students go on thinking about for years. EDIT: We focus far to much on teaching people what to know about X when we should be teaching people how to think about X. Knowing how to think critically is a lot more applicable in life than repeating a bunch of dates off the top of your head (that's what google is for ).
Which is what I think the author was getting at, but they definitely didn't get their point across very well at all.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/09 05:11:20
Because there are other forms of voting fraud/errors that have nothing to do with ID laws. Also, because some people are in denial and are looking desperately for any possible way to keep Trump from being president.
It is complete bs to say that someone has no opportunity to obtain legal verifiable photo id.
Which is not the point. Obviously it is possible for anyone to get an ID, but the intent of the law is that people who are in situations where it is difficult to get an ID won't bother and won't get to vote. For example, if your driver's license expires and you have to take time off work to take the bus to and from the DMV office you might keep putting it off because you can't afford to spend time on something that isn't essential. Next thing you know it's election day and you can't vote. And you can say all you want that this kind of thing shouldn't happen very often, but it doesn't take many cases to outweigh the virtually nonexistent evidence of the kind of voting fraud that can be prevented by ID laws.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
If people are so obsessed about making sure the person voting is who they say they are (even though the instances of fraud we saw in 2016 wouldn't have been stopped by voter ID), then every state should just do what PA and VA do;
When someone registers to vote the state election board mails them a card with their name and voter number. This card is a valid form of ID for the purpose of voting.
If the state wants to institute ID laws, then the state should assume the burden of making sure everyone who registers to vote has "ID." Making voters prove their own identities is a backwards way of achieving the goal of election integrity that does more harm than good. If the state thinks someone isn't who they say they are the state can go ahead and try to prove it.
Tannhauser42 wrote: People do change, you know.
Sessions is better judged by what he's done in the last ten years, n not something he did thirty years ago.
From your mouth to God's ear, as the saying goes. It's been my experience though, that old Tigers rarely change their stripes.
To quote a contemporary GOP columnist and strategist: "Jeff Sessions, considered too racist to be a judge in '80s, is Trump's AG. Best to go back to sleep, America. I'll wake you up when it's over." [GOP strategist Ana Navarro]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/09 05:22:39
LordofHats wrote: then every state should just do what PA and VA do;
When someone registers to vote the state election board mails them a card with their name and voter number. This card is a valid form of ID for the purpose of voting.
That's not really what Virginia does.
A photo ID is required to cast an in-person ballot in Virginia. There's a pretty broad range of what the Commonwealth considers a "valid photo ID," including an ID card issued by your employer for regular use at work, but you have to have something with your picture on it. If a voter doesn't have one of those IDs, they can get apply for a "voter photo ID card" at any registrar's office, but it isn't automatic.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
LordofHats wrote: They must have changed it since I voted there in 2012, or I just don't remember it as well as I thought.
Republicans passed our current voter ID laws in 2013, to prevent all that widespread "voter fraud" occurring in our state.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
feeder wrote: Considering how strongly you were #NeverTrump before the election, now that it's done you've jumped pretty hard on the ol' party bandwagon, eh?
He was #nevertrump just for show. Personal PR. In reality he was #TrumpForWhiteHouse.
Seems also he still thinks Clinton lost because of deplorable comment when that wasn't case. Lol.
So, there is now a #DumpStarWars going round twitter and a whole bunch of people are in a real storm about Rogue 1. As I understand it, it supposedly has an "anti-Trump" message in it, cause the whole, "The Empire are an allegory for the Nazi's" thing that has existed since um... 1977.
Maybe it's time for Mitchell and Webb to Star-Warsify this sketch?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
).
