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Compel wrote: But won't the Republicans quite decisively control all aspects of the US Government? And therefore, it's entirely possible that all sorts of... Things... could be passed without much viable opposition?
Eh? What are you about?
Amending the US Constitution isn't all that easy.
While true... I do recall that it was you proverbially jumping up and down in joy over how many states are also under Republican control across the country.... Unless a constitutional amendment must go to a popular vote (given the way other bits in the constitution are written, I dont think so), provided it goes to the states, it's possible to make amendments.
Right... but, the states was only able tp repeal the Prohibition... the rest were done via Congressional amendment proposal.
Usually, it's: 1) Either Congress or the states can propose an amendment to the Constitution.
2) For Congress: Both houses must propose the amendment with a two-thirds vote. For the states: Two-thirds of the state legislatures must call on Congress to hold a constitutional convention.
3) Regardless of 1 & 2: Three-fourths of the state legislatures must approve of the amendment proposed by Congress, OR Three-fourths of the states must approve the amendment via ratifying conventions.
Those are really, REALLY high bar to pass. Right now, the states are one away from the two-thirds needed to propose. They'll still NEED three-fourths to pass it.
Simply stated. It ain't happening anytime soon, unless it's something that truly bipartisan.
BrotherGecko wrote: So is the US military nothing but pixels on Trumps Command and Conqueror game now? The US military swears an oath to uphold the Constitution, not the PoTUS. A service member can refuse an unlawful order from the PoTUS. They don't just war and nuke without conscious thought.
Nuclear weapons are banned outright. There are no circumstances in which their use is considered legal.
You, uh, still keep them around because you think you might need them some day, don't you?
And the reality of World War 3 is that it will go nuclear at some point. Those nukes are kept around for World War 3, because after World War 3, the fact they're illegal doesn't MATTER anymore, because there is not enough left of humanity's civilization to care about prosecuting anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Taking Trump from Washington D.C. to Europe for the war crimes trial after World War 3 will be flat-out impossible until we reinvent ships capable of crossing the Atlantic Ocean,because the EMPs that will be going off will mean humanity will not have computers anymore.
Cars will not function.
Trump won't be able to tweet about anything because not only will his phone not turn on, the Internet doesn't EXIST anymore.
And the fact that something is illegal does not mean that you CANNOT do it, only that you can be punished AFTER doing it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So when I hear that Trump, a man who has advocated for the use of illegal WMDs as standard warfare, wants to "expand" what I hear is that Trump wants to send us back to the times of friggin Ancient Rome as far as technology goes, and doesn't even realize what he's saying.
THIS is why he's terrifying. He doesn't understand the catastrophic implications of what he's suggesting.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/12/26 10:17:49
Pouncey wrote: Taking Trump from Washington D.C. to Europe for the war crimes trial after World War 3 will be flat-out impossible until we reinvent ships capable of crossing the Atlantic Ocean,because the EMPs that will be going off will mean humanity will not have computers anymore.
We still have sailing ships capable of crossing the Atlantic, even some pretty large ones. What do you think people used to reach America before there were computers? ;-)
Pouncey wrote: Taking Trump from Washington D.C. to Europe for the war crimes trial after World War 3 will be flat-out impossible until we reinvent ships capable of crossing the Atlantic Ocean,because the EMPs that will be going off will mean humanity will not have computers anymore.
We still have sailing ships capable of crossing the Atlantic, even some pretty large ones. What do you think people used to reach America before there were computers? ;-)
They didn't rely on computers at all then, so they didn't build their ships to take that technology into account. Nowadays, we do. Navigation tech, for example. No more GPS, even the satellites are gone because they were also hit by the EMPs.
We'd basically be raiding museums for our technology.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/26 10:31:40
"It concludes that there is a substantive legal gap because unlike chemical and biological weapons—the other categories of nonconventional weapons—nuclear weapons are not explicitly and comprehensively prohibited."
Now, there are certainly legal and ethical issues with the use of nuclear weapons against civilian targets, but those same issues exist with carpet-bombing a city with conventional weapons. And there are certainly situations where there are no ethical issues at all involving the use of nuclear weapons. For example, using nuclear anti-ship missiles against enemy warships is no different from using any other anti-ship missiles except in that the nuclear missile may have a higher chance of scoring a kill. And of course a complete ban isn't worth much even if it did exist, since enforcing any meaningful punishment on a nuclear-armed country would be difficult at best. Much like they've done in the past, the US/Russia/Israel/etc will all find common ground in making sure that nobody threatens the effectiveness of their weapons.
And the reality of World War 3 is that it will go nuclear at some point.
Then don't start WWIII. There are scenarios involving the use of nuclear weapons that do not escalate to civilization-ending nuclear war. For example, let's say North Korea manages to sneak a nuclear weapon into a US city and detonate it, making 9/11 look like a minor thing. Do you honestly think that Russia and China are going to do anything but sit and watch if the US decides to retaliate by removing North Korea from the map? Of course not. Russia and China don't want to die to avenge a country they only care about as a political tool against the US (when they bother to care at all), and it's in their best interest to make sure that a first strike with nuclear weapons against a civilian target is clearly demonstrated to be an act of national suicide.
Starting WWIII is only an issue if things escalate way beyond Trump's twitter posts. And as incompetent and clueless as Trump is, there are a lot of people around him with the power to stop that escalation before it reaches the point of nuclear war. It's certainly not an encouraging thing for the US president to be saying, but let's not blow this out of proportion and act like a tweet in favor of having nuclear weapons means an inevitable course to a civilization-ending nuclear war.
because the EMPs that will be going off will mean humanity will not have computers anymore.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
A fake news story has touched off a Twitter confrontation between nuclear powers Pakistan and Israel.
The exchange took place following the publication of a fake story headlined “Israeli Defense Minister: If Pakistan send ground troops to Syria on any pretext, we will destroy this country with a nuclear attack”.
The story appeared on 20 December on the site AWD News.
In an apparent response to the story, Pakistan’s defence minister Khawaja Mohammad Asif sent a warning to Israel on Twitter that “Pakistan is a nuclear state too.”
Israel’s defense ministry tweeted back on Saturday, saying the original story was “totally fictitious.”
AWD has been identified by fact-checking organisations as a fake news site.
Israel maintains a policy of nuclear ambiguity, neither confirming nor denying the existence of an arsenal but is widely believed to have its own nuclear weapons. Pakistan became a nuclear power in 1998. The countries have no diplomatic ties.
There was no immediate reaction from Pakistan to Israel’s response.
Earlier this month a fake news story about a child abuse ring prompted a gunman to fire shots inside a pizza restaurant in Washington.
Bodes well eh ?
It's lucky the incoming POTUS and his crew have such a firm grasp on geopolitcial realities.
Nicole Adamczyk’s drinking water used to slosh through a snarl of pipes dating from the Coolidge administration — a rusty, rickety symbol of the nation’s failing infrastructure.
So, in 2012, this blue-collar port city cut a deal with a Wall Street investment firm to manage its municipal waterworks.
Four years later, many of those crusty brown pipes have been replaced by shiny cobalt-blue ones, reflecting a broader infrastructure overhaul in Bayonne. But Ms. Adamczyk’s water and sewer bill has jumped so much that she is thinking about moving out of town.
“My reaction was, ‘Oh, so I guess I’m screwed now?’” said Ms. Adamczyk, an accountant and mother of two who received a quarterly bill for almost $500 this year. She’s not alone: Another resident’s bill jumped 5 percent, despite the household’s having used 11 percent less water.
Even as Wall Street deals like the one with Bayonne help financially desperate municipalities to make much-needed repairs, they can come with a hefty price tag — not just to pay for new pipes, but also to help the investors earn a nice return, a New York Times analysis has found. Often, these contracts guarantee a specific amount of revenue, The Times found, which can send water bills soaring.
Water rates in Bayonne have risen nearly 28 percent since Kohlberg Kravis Roberts — one of Wall Street’s most storied private equity firms — teamed up with another company to manage the city’s water system, the Times analysis shows. City officials also promised residents a four-year rate freeze that never materialized.
In one measure of residents’ distress, people are falling so far behind on their bills that the city is placing more liens against their homes, which can eventually lead to foreclosures.
In the typical private equity water deal, higher rates help the firms earn returns of anywhere from 8 to 18 percent, more than what a regular for-profit water company may expect. And to accelerate their returns, two of the firms have applied a common strategy from the private equity playbook: quickly flipping their investment to another firm. This includes K.K.R., which is said to be shopping its 90 percent stake in the Bayonne venture, a partnership with the water company Suez.
Rich Henning, a Suez spokesman, said that “Bayonne had chronically underinvested in their water and sewer infrastructure, which has certainly contributed to rate increases during the past few years.” He added, “We understand that these increases create stresses for ratepayers.”
President-elect Donald J. Trump has made the privatization of public works a centerpiece of his strategy to rebuild America’s airports, bridges, tunnels and roads. Members of his inner circle have sketched out a vision, including billions of dollars of tax credits for private investors willing to tackle big infrastructure projects. And Mr. Trump himself promised in his victory speech “to rebuild our infrastructure, which will become, by the way, second to none.”
Private equity firms like K.K.R. have already presented themselves as a willing partner, and Bayonne provides an important case study. Its arrangement is one of a handful of deals across the country in the last few years in which private equity firms have managed public water systems. While these deals are a small corner of private equity’s sprawling interests, they represent the leading edge of the industry’s profound expansion into public services.
For residents, the financial trade-offs from these water deals can be painful.
The Times analyzed three deals in which private equity firms have recently run a community’s water or sewer services through a long-term contract. In all three places — Bayonne, and two cities in California, Rialto and Santa Paula — rates rose more quickly than in comparable towns, which included both publicly and privately run water systems. In Santa Paula, where Alinda Capital Partners controlled the sewer plant, the city more than doubled the rates. A fourth municipality, Middletown, Pa., raised its rates before striking a deal.
Now, some of these cities are trying to take back their water. Missoula, Mont., wrested away its water system, which had been owned by the Carlyle Group. Apple Valley, Calif., whose waterworks were also owned by Carlyle, has filed a similar lawsuit. Santa Paula bought its sewer plant from Alinda last year.
Of course, there’s a reason many communities look for private partners to begin with: Their water systems are in poor shape. Budget shortfalls and political mismanagement can represent a real threat to both infrastructure and citizens. For evidence, look no further than the crisis in Flint, Mich., where the drinking water became tainted with lead.
“Keeping rates down may sound like the ultimate righteous good for ratepayers, but the truth is, not if you’re failing to provide basic care and maintenance,” said Megan Matson, a partner at Table Rock Capital, the boutique private equity firm that invested in Rialto’s water and sewer system. She added that it helps for deals to “provide more obvious public benefits,” noting that her firm partnered with Ullico, the nation’s only labor-owned insurance and investment company.
Proponents of the public-private partnerships, citing recent studies in Canada and Europe, argue that private businesses operate more efficiently than governments do and that this translates into cost savings for citizens. And private equity firms, lacking technical expertise in how to manage infrastructure, often team up with private water companies.
Supporters also say that the deals require private equity to spend millions of dollars a year to fix things (money that towns may not spend on their own), and that the firms sometimes pay towns millions more up front. Bayonne, for instance, got $150 million up front from K.K.R.’s team, which the city used to pay off a pile of debt.
In a statement, a K.K.R. spokeswoman said, “Our partnership has provided Bayonne residents with better service, modernized technology to detect leaks and conserve water, improved infrastructure and safer conditions for workers — all without a tax increase or public expenditure.”
Desperate Measures
In Bayonne, a city of about 65,000 on a peninsula in the shadow of the fallen twin towers, a crucial test for its private equity deal came in July 2012. By then, Bayonne had already spent nearly a year haggling with some of K.K.R.’s top negotiators.
Next, city officials presented the deal to a more skeptical crowd: their own residents.
Bayonne’s sales pitch to its citizens illustrates the bold steps town officials can take — including making promises that are at odds with the actual terms of the deal — to attract private equity money. Private equity, in turn, can earn significant returns.
At a public meeting in city hall, a lawyer for the city promised that, after an initial rate bump, there would be “a rate freeze for four years,” according to a meeting transcript. Bayonne’s mayor, Mark Smith, later reiterated the four-year freeze in a magazine article.
That promise turned out to be fleeting.
The contract allowed additional rate increases after only two years. There was no four-year freeze.
In fact, rates rose even more than the Bayonne contract predicted — in part because K.K.R’s team had to make unexpected infrastructure upgrades, but also because residents were using less water than expected. The contract guarantees revenue to the team — more than half a billion dollars over 40 years — so water rates have jumped, in part, to make up the difference.
The city said it saw the revenue requirement as a way for K.K.R.’s team to earn steady returns, but not a windfall.
But the Times analysis showed that Bayonne’s water rates grew almost 28 percent under the deal, growth that far exceeded that of three other municipalities to which Bayonne has compared itself.
(Daniel Van Abs, an associate professor at Rutgers University who specializes in water management, said that a true apples-to-apples comparison of water rates in different towns was “extremely difficult” because of the different factors that can influence rates, including the size of the utility, the municipality’s population, droughts and infrastructure investment — or lack thereof. The Times analysis for Bayonne did not include sewer rates.)
Former Bayonne officials who had promised the four-year rate freeze said in interviews that they had not meant to mislead residents. They said they had earmarked some of the K.K.R. team’s $150 million up-front payment to offset rate increases in the contract’s early years.
But then voters ousted Mayor Smith. And once he left office, the new administration put that money elsewhere.
“I think we could have accomplished that four-year minimum,” the former mayor said in an interview. The town’s water rates, he said, are now “exorbitant.”
Tim Boyle, who took over Bayonne’s utilities authority after Mr. Smith was voted out of office, said that various regulations required the city to use that money for property tax relief rather than to stabilize rates. He also blamed the previous administration for guaranteeing too much revenue to K.K.R.’s team in the early part of the deal, calling those figures “wildly optimistic.”
Bayonne officials also stress the deal’s benefits, including the up-front payment that let Bayonne pay off more than $100 million in old debts. Within three months, Moody’s Investor Service revised the city’s debt outlook from “negative” to “stable” for the first time in five years, and it has since upgraded the city’s credit rating.
K.K.R.’s team contributes about $2.5 million annually to pay for repairs to water infrastructure, plus $500,000 to the city itself. K.K.R. and Suez said they have upgraded their safety equipment and replaced inoperable hydrants around town.
They also installed sophisticated water meters that can detect leaks in people’s homes, and sent nearly 2,000 letters to customers warning when such leaks occurred. As such, use has declined, according to Mr. Henning, who said Suez had received “many notes of thanks” for the warnings.
But more-sensitive meters could lead to higher bills for some residents whose water use wasn’t fully captured in the past. When negotiating the deal, K.K.R. called this process “meter uplift,” according to emails obtained through records requests.
“We gave away too much,” said Gary La Pelusa Sr., a city councilman and former commissioner of Bayonne’s utilities authority, which approved the deal over his objections.
Bayonne originally promised residents that the city’s utilities authority would oversee K.K.R. and Suez. But the City Council recently decided to shutter the agency and handle the oversight itself.
Stephen Gallo, who headed that authority when the deal was struck, still believes that it benefits Bayonne. “But you’ve got to watch them, you’ve got to keep an eye on things,” he said. “I don’t know who’s doing that now.”
In interviews with The Times, more than a dozen Bayonne residents, including Ms. Adamczyk, expressed dismay over the rate increases. One reason is that people who fall behind on payments face long-term risks: Unpaid water and sewer bills can be sold to investors who try to collect on that debt, a common practice across the country. Failure to pay can ultimately lead to foreclosure.
In 2012, the year Bayonne struck its deal, water bill delinquencies led to 200 government liens against local properties, tax records show. That figure more than tripled the next year, the first full year under K.K.R.’s team. In 2015, the most recent year with data available, the number remained elevated, at 465.
The city publishes its lien notices in the local newspaper and residents receive mailed delinquency letters.
Still, when a reporter asked one Bayonne resident, Carlos Jimenez, about a water and sewer bill lien that had been listed against his property, he expressed surprise, saying he wasn’t aware of it. “I didn’t know this could happen,” Mr. Jimenez said. “It’s a different ballgame.”
‘There Is No “Free” Money’
One of the few things Republicans and Democrats can agree on is that the nation faces an infrastructure crisis.
In water infrastructure alone, the nation needs about $600 billion over the next 20 years, according to federal estimates. And yet federal spending on water utilities has declined, prompting state and federal officials to try to play matchmaker, courting private investors to fix what needs fixing.
For years, the Obama administration has been cheerleading public-private partnerships. In a statement, the White House said it backed them “when they are well structured, include strong labor standards, and when there is confidence that taxpayers are getting a good deal.”
During the presidential campaign, Mr. Trump’s team outlined a new plan to incentivize private investors to take on large infrastructure projects.
Wall Street has responded to the call to action. There are now 84 active financial infrastructure funds, according to Pitchbook, a private financial data platform, up 25 percent in just three years. Some belong to big banks like Goldman Sachs, but many are run by private equity firms.
“Across our country, we need solutions for infrastructure deficiencies,” said James Maloney, a spokesman for the American Investment Council, the private equity trade group. “Private equity serves as one of these solutions.”
Some critics are wary of expanding private investment in public infrastructure. Although cities may get cash up front in these deals, “there is no ‘free’ money” in public-private partnerships, says a 2008 Government Accountability Office report. Using roads as an example, the report observed “it is likely” that tolls will increase more on a privately operated highway than one run by the government.
Ms. Matson, of Table Rock, who has attended White House meetings on infrastructure, has tried to dispel concerns about these deals. Table Rock is part of a team that finances and manages the water system in Rialto, Calif., a deal that provided the city about $41 million to improve the water and wastewater infrastructure, she said.
Rialto residents have seen their water rates increase about 68 percent since the deal, according to the Times analysis, more than any other comparable city. But Table Rock said rates were artificially low after the city had declined to raise them for about a decade, giving it the lowest rates among those towns. And unlike in most other deals, Rialto residents had a say in the increases and ultimately approved them in a public vote, as required under state law. This year’s rate increase was delayed.
When the deal closed in 2012, all the public water utility employees kept their jobs. Everyone has since received raises. And Table Rock, like its partner Ullico, has committed to all 30 years of the arrangement.
“We don’t do flips, we invest for life,” Ms. Matson said, meaning that Table Rock doesn’t seek quick profits by unloading its investments. She also said that Table Rock declined to make deals that provided big up-front payments to towns without a sufficient commitment to infrastructure repairs. “Those deals give the rest of us a bad name,” she said.
Gaining Control, but Then What?
In an upscale Washington, D.C., restaurant in 2012, an executive from the Carlyle Group, one of the world’s largest private equity firms, put his arm around the mayor of Missoula, Mont.
“Mayor,” the executive said, “are you ready to buy a water system?”
Three years later, the comments by the executive, Robert Dove, were recounted from a witness stand in the Missoula County Courthouse. The city was suing Carlyle, which ultimately refused to sell to Missoula, to gain control of its water system.
Missoula is one of several places in recent years that have tried getting back their water systems from a private company. But after waging costly battles, the towns cannot always guarantee the same services at lower rates.
At the time of that dinner in Washington, Missoula was the only city in Montana that did not own its water system — and John Engen, Missoula’s mayor, wanted to change that. So, months before, he had supported Carlyle’s purchase of the regional water company (Park Water) that owned Missoula’s local system (Mountain Water), believing that Carlyle would then sell Mountain Water back to his town.
But the mayor’s plans derailed.
In October 2013, Missoula made an informal offer to buy its local system. Carlyle declined. Missoula made a formal offer. Carlyle declined again.
Missoula then sued, and it won. But the court decided the system was worth $88.6 million, substantially more than what the city had offered. On top of that, the city must spend millions of dollars on legal and other fees and must also pay some of its opponents’ costs, according to court records.
Those costs included lawyers’ fees, limo services and dinners at some of Missoula’s finest restaurants. They also included at least one order of boneless chicken wings at Hooters, and one bottle of Metamucil.
In a statement, a Carlyle spokesman said that the firm had considered the city’s offers in good faith. “The city offered many millions less than the company was worth, and an independent panel agreed,” the spokesman said.
He also said that under Carlyle’s watch, “capital expenditures more than doubled, leakage was reduced by 19 percent, water quality was excellent and employment was stable.”
And under Missoula’s watch, water rates may rise anyway. Further costly repairs are still needed, for one thing.
For Carlyle, the deal was a financial success. The firm sold Park Water in January to another private company for $327 million, more than double what Carlyle had paid.
Missoula is not the only city seeking control over its infrastructure. Last year, Santa Paula bought its wastewater recycling plant for about $70 million from Alinda Capital Partners.
Alinda, which specializes in infrastructure investing, had teamed up with a private water recycling company to finance, design, build and operate the plant after the city awarded them the contract in 2008. The new facility, Alinda noted, replaced an old plant owned by Santa Paula that had been violating state environmental regulations, saving the city from paying fines.
But after years of raising sewer rates, partly to pay “service fees” to Alinda, Santa Paula’s thinking changed: It would be better for Santa Paula to issue its own debt to purchase the plant than to saddle citizens with annual rate increases. Now the town — at the urging of its city manager, Jaime Fontes, and several council members, including Ginger Gherardi — has started issuing rebates to citizens.
Still, there will be bumps along the road. After all, cities like Missoula and Santa Paula are now responsible for running an important, and occasionally messy, public service.
Soon after Santa Paula regained control of its sewer plant, an equipment failure let partly treated wastewater pour from the plant. The discharge turned a pond green and flowed onto a nearby organic farm.
And wastewater, Mr. Fontes said, is “not the kind of organic you want.”
Flint Michigan situation suddenly seems a whole lot more understandable.
It's like there'a a whole bunch of people who saw all those 80s films, books etc etc pointing out how awful the world would be if corporations ran everything,missed the point completely -- and then you decided to elect those people.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
You ever kinda want to, like, annex the USA, sort that gakshow out, set them up with a proper way of doing things, take their nukes away forever, then give them their freedom again only when they prove they can handle it like civilized human beings?
Not for real of course, that would start WW3 as well, but do you ever just kinda, like, fantasize about it?
No, seriously, what are nukes even around for IRL? The only time they'd be used is in ending our entire civilization, and if you're planning on fighting off space aliens some day with them, then no, that was just a movie. That doesn't work in real life, because the fact they managed to reach Earth means their infantry are wearing body armor that lets them survive your nukes exploding at point-blank range, and if you're capable of fighting them off at all, you have access to better weapons than nukes - your infantry can just kill their infantry with their standard guns that don't take out massive areas around the battle, and your space fleet has to be capable of stopping them from firing a single shot at Earth that takes out the entire planet's biosphere. Nukes are not going to be relevant to fighting off space aliens.
No, the horror there is that legitimate governments are getting their news about the world from random sites on the Internet and acting upon it as though it is fact without bothering to confirm it first or even verify that the website is not a fake one.
I think that if our machines wanted to wipe us out IRL, at this point they could just skip that part where they kill us themselves, and just control what people see on the Internet in ways that make us kill each other.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/12/26 11:41:15
BrotherGecko wrote: There is a lot more to the why than the idea that military mindlessly desires whole sale death and destruction and Trump will deliver it.
People voted for a man who said that when ordered to, they would kill the families of terrorists without any reason to and in clear contradiction of the rules of war. So they're either OK with him ordering that or don't think he meant it.
To the first, they are either psychopaths and should not be in uniform or are confident that no US soldier would carry out such an order, which is incredibly dumb as US soldiers have been involved with atrocities including the murder of women and children in the past.
To the second, what if they are wrong and he did mean it?
Most feared what Clinton would do than what Trump has said. Trump says stupid stuff and Clinton's no fly zone idea was going to directly bring them in a new conflict. As far as the military is concerned, it voted to avoid war.
By voting for the person who said they should have secured and held the oil fields in Iraq and never left? And the party whose candidates were all about bombing Syria/Iraq/Lybia/wherever ISIS happen to be in order to "see if sand glows"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/26 12:05:34
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Pouncey wrote: No, seriously, what are nukes even around for IRL?
Deterrent or vengeance. The really big guys (USA, Russia) can just point at their nukes and no one (not even one of them) will attack the other for real, discounting a few Cold War incidents. Smaller powers like the UK or Israel have their nukes primed for a revenge attack - an enemy powerful and sneaky enough to take them out without warning will still be subject to nuclear retaliation.
Ofc, it's just one more weapon when you think about it. Wanting a better weapon than the other guy is a pretty common thing for humans even if you don't intend to use it. A chanceless enemy is the best enemy, right?
BrotherGecko wrote: There is a lot more to the why than the idea that military mindlessly desires whole sale death and destruction and Trump will deliver it.
People voted for a man who said that when ordered to, they would kill the families of terrorists without any reason to and in clear contradiction of the rules of war. So they're either OK with him ordering that or don't think he meant it.
To the first, they are either psychopaths and should not be in uniform or are confident that no US soldier would carry out such an order, which is incredibly dumb as US soldiers have been involved with atrocities including the murder of women and children in the past.
To the second, what if they are wrong and he did mean it?
Most feared what Clinton would do than what Trump has said. Trump says stupid stuff and Clinton's no fly zone idea was going to directly bring them in a new conflict. As far as the military is concerned, it voted to avoid war.
By voting for the person who said they should have secured and held the oil fields in Iraq and never left? And the party whose candidates were all about bombing Syria/Iraq/Lybia/wherever ISIS happen to be in order to "see if sand glows"?
I don't know what to tell you man, I didn't vote for him. Your country voted to leave the EU, so once you figure out why Brits voted against themselves I should have an answer why Americans did it.
Only thing I can tell you is that the military likely didn't read too much into what Trump was saying about ISIS and read a lot into what Clinton said about Russia. The sand glows comment was Ted Cruz and he didn't get the support of the military, Trump is about as Republican (at the time) as Gary Johnson so clearly people were not receptive to the Republican Party even if Trump was on the Republican ticket. Basically, war with ISIS to the military is something that could actually help people (and in some cases really would) and war with Russia only gets people killed with only the thing gained is dead bodies
Pouncey wrote: No, seriously, what are nukes even around for IRL?
Deterrent or vengeance. The really big guys (USA, Russia) can just point at their nukes and no one (not even one of them) will attack the other for real, discounting a few Cold War incidents. Smaller powers like the UK or Israel have their nukes primed for a revenge attack - an enemy powerful and sneaky enough to take them out without warning will still be subject to nuclear retaliation.
Ofc, it's just one more weapon when you think about it. Wanting a better weapon than the other guy is a pretty common thing for humans even if you don't intend to use it. A chanceless enemy is the best enemy, right?
I wouldn't discount the possibility of nukes getting used one day. It's like the argument with guns in my mind, there are those that say if you have it, you'll tend to use it.
All it could possibly take is some country with a real hot nut against another to say, "Screw it, we'll get the drop if we launch now", and start throwing nukes out. This planet has seen more unexpected scenarios unfold, and that ole' nuclear clock is pretty close to midnight.
You do know that some of those "foreigners" are also armed with Nukes, some with enough to completely overwhelm any defensive "shield"?
Check your sarcasm detector please...
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Pouncey wrote: You ever kinda want to, like, annex the USA, sort that gakshow out, set them up with a proper way of doing things, take their nukes away forever, then give them their freedom again only when they prove they can handle it like civilized human beings?
Not for real of course, that would start WW3 as well, but do you ever just kinda, like, fantasize about it?
You keep talking like that... you're not going get much of a discussion.
All you'll get is "you're welcome to try".
No, seriously, what are nukes even around for IRL? The only time they'd be used is in ending our entire civilization, and if you're planning on fighting off space aliens some day with them, then no, that was just a movie. That doesn't work in real life, because the fact they managed to reach Earth means their infantry are wearing body armor that lets them survive your nukes exploding at point-blank range, and if you're capable of fighting them off at all, you have access to better weapons than nukes - your infantry can just kill their infantry with their standard guns that don't take out massive areas around the battle, and your space fleet has to be capable of stopping them from firing a single shot at Earth that takes out the entire planet's biosphere. Nukes are not going to be relevant to fighting off space aliens.
O.o
Fatman and Little Boy ended World War 2.
Why we have it now? Because it keeps the nuclear superpower honest.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/26 16:24:08
Why we have it now? Because it keeps the nuclear superpower honest.
Japan was already on verge of defeat. It was just a matter of time, since their navy was dead and they lost their own sky control.
Claiming that launching the bombs was the actual thing that ended the war is a false propaganda. Bombs were used when the enemy was already on their knees. It was more a matter of sending a clear message (and also preventing Russia from gaining too much credits for their own war effort) than really "ending the war" like you wrote. What is actually true is that the bombs were launched TOWARDS THE END OF THE WAR - which is significantly different.
Check some documentaries on this matter (and by that, I don't mean your usual social media false information). It's not so "black and white" as you're trying to claim here, as usual.
The reason we have it now is because of the past; a stupid arms race. Of course foreigners would be afraid that nukes are left to the hands of Trump. Because he's ignorant and impulsive enough to be the dumb one launching it again for whatever reason.
Why we have it now? Because it keeps the nuclear superpower honest.
Japan was already on verge of defeat. It was just a matter of time, since their navy was dead and they lost their own sky control.
Claiming that launching the bombs was the actual thing that ended the war is a false propaganda. Bombs were used when the enemy was already on their knees. It was more a matter of sending a clear message (and also preventing Russia from gaining too much credits for their own war effort) than really "ending the war" like you wrote. What is actually true is that the bombs were launched TOWARDS THE END OF THE WAR - which is significantly different.
Check some documentaries on this matter (and by that, I don't mean your usual social media false information). It's not so "black and white" as you're trying to claim here, as usual.
The reason we have it now is because of the past; a stupid arms race. Of course foreigners would be afraid that nukes are left to the hands of Trump. Because he's ignorant and impulsive enough to be the dumb one launching it again for whatever reason.
I would have been far more worried with nukes in the hands of Clinton, since in the past she has proven eager to escalate to armed conflict. Trump I. My mind is more of a big talker, although props are due him for the obstacles he overcame to become President.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/26 16:52:15
Why we have it now? Because it keeps the nuclear superpower honest.
Japan was already on verge of defeat. It was just a matter of time, since their navy was dead and they lost their own sky control.
Claiming that launching the bombs was the actual thing that ended the war is a false propaganda. Bombs were used when the enemy was already on their knees. It was more a matter of sending a clear message (and also preventing Russia from gaining too much credits for their own war effort) than really "ending the war" like you wrote. What is actually true is that the bombs were launched TOWARDS THE END OF THE WAR - which is significantly different.
Check some documentaries on this matter (and by that, I don't mean your usual social media false information). It's not so "black and white" as you're trying to claim here, as usual.
The reason we have it now is because of the past; a stupid arms race. Of course foreigners would be afraid that nukes are left to the hands of Trump. Because he's ignorant and impulsive enough to be the dumb one launching it again for whatever reason.
I would have been far more worried with nukes in the hands of Clinton, since in the past she has proven eager to escalate to armed conflict. Trump I. My mind is more of a big talker, although props are due him for the obstacles he overcame to become President.
Trump doesn't have a history of escalating to armed conflict because he's never been in a position to do so.
He's certainly got a a history of being extremely aggressive.
Yeah, Japan was finished, it's leaders would just no admit it. And the US decided to use the bombs instead of a land invasion because they thought it would cause less casualties in the end (And some anti-Japanese sentiment). It
s debatable (as in it's debated to this day) whether or not they were necessary, or if Japan would have capitulated anyway. The second one (IMO) was certainly not necessary, as they didn't give the Japaneses leadership enough time.
Unfortunately we don't know much of went on during that time as the Japanese military destroyed a lot of their documents before surrendering, and then the American Military came in and destroyed a whole bunch more.
Why we have it now? Because it keeps the nuclear superpower honest.
Japan was already on verge of defeat. It was just a matter of time, since their navy was dead and they lost their own sky control.
Claiming that launching the bombs was the actual thing that ended the war is a false propaganda. Bombs were used when the enemy was already on their knees. It was more a matter of sending a clear message (and also preventing Russia from gaining too much credits for their own war effort) than really "ending the war" like you wrote. What is actually true is that the bombs were launched TOWARDS THE END OF THE WAR - which is significantly different.
Check some documentaries on this matter (and by that, I don't mean your usual social media false information). It's not so "black and white" as you're trying to claim here, as usual.
The reason we have it now is because of the past; a stupid arms race. Of course foreigners would be afraid that nukes are left to the hands of Trump. Because he's ignorant and impulsive enough to be the dumb one launching it again for whatever reason.
I would have been far more worried with nukes in the hands of Clinton, since in the past she has proven eager to escalate to armed conflict. Trump I. My mind is more of a big talker, although props are due him for the obstacles he overcame to become President.
I'm sorry, which one of them had repeatedly asked about using nukes, and talked about how he was willing to use them? Which one was an unpredictable, egotistical, nut-job, who freaks out on twitter over being insulted on SNL? If this was generic Republican 238, then maybe you would have a point (although maybe not if they were a neo-con), but not with Trump.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/26 17:04:20
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Why we have it now? Because it keeps the nuclear superpower honest.
Japan was already on verge of defeat. It was just a matter of time, since their navy was dead and they lost their own sky control.
Claiming that launching the bombs was the actual thing that ended the war is a false propaganda. Bombs were used when the enemy was already on their knees. It was more a matter of sending a clear message (and also preventing Russia from gaining too much credits for their own war effort) than really "ending the war" like you wrote. What is actually true is that the bombs were launched TOWARDS THE END OF THE WAR - which is significantly different.
Check some documentaries on this matter (and by that, I don't mean your usual social media false information). It's not so "black and white" as you're trying to claim here, as usual.
Horse gak.
We were staging an invasion force that would've been ridiculously bloody and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives would be lost.
Fatman and Little Boy effectively ended the war EARLIER with less lives lost.
There are NUMEROUS documentaries and books attesting to that.
The reason we have it now is because of the past; a stupid arms race. Of course foreigners would be afraid that nukes are left to the hands of Trump. Because he's ignorant and impulsive enough to be the dumb one launching it again for whatever reason.
Yay, Trump's a dictator in the world's opinion!
:rolls eyes:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/26 17:21:28
Fatman and Little Boy effectively ended the war EARLIER with less lives lost.
Which is not what you originally said, don't backpedal.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Also, as I said before, it's debatable whether that is true or not. We may have been able to just wait. WE really don't know, as all the information had been destroyed. They certainly "ended the war", but it;s debatable that they were necessary or caused less casualties. And to even think about using them, or talk about rejuvenating the nuclear arms race, is disgusting. But this is Donald Trump we are talking about, so I guess that's just par for the course.
But don't worry it was Clinton who was going to start WWII.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Also, as I said before, it's debatable whether that is true or not. We may have been able to just wait. WE really don't know, as all the information had been destroyed. They certainly "ended the war", but it;s debatable that they were necessary or caused less casualties. And to even think about using them, or talk about rejuvenating the nuclear arms race, is disgusting. But this is Donald Trump we are talking about, so I guess that's just par for the course.
But don't worry it was Clinton who was going to start WWII.
No, seriously, what are nukes even around for IRL? The only time they'd be used is in ending our entire civilization, and if you're planning on fighting off space aliens some day with them, then no, that was just a movie. That doesn't work in real life, because the fact they managed to reach Earth means their infantry are wearing body armor that lets them survive your nukes exploding at point-blank range, and if you're capable of fighting them off at all, you have access to better weapons than nukes - your infantry can just kill their infantry with their standard guns that don't take out massive areas around the battle, and your space fleet has to be capable of stopping them from firing a single shot at Earth that takes out the entire planet's biosphere. Nukes are not going to be relevant to fighting off space aliens.
O.o
Fatman and Little Boy ended World War 2.
Hrm, there's quite a lot of debate on that point. Japan was already completely incapable of meaningful resistance and about on the brink of total economic and national infrastructure collapse with many of her forces stuck in China (with no way home as Japanese shipping had been obliterated and there was no fuel for ships anyway) and little industrial or material resources left (having smaller oil reserves in the entire national inventory than a single US carrier battlegroup used in a month), the soviet invasion between the bombs had at least as much if not more to do with the surrender (and inflicted far more real military damage while gutting Japan's hopes of a negotiated peace as the USSR was the only realistic intermediary for negotiations, taking their last hope of peace terms they had any input on), conventional firebombings were proving at least as devastating if not moreso (as in Tokyo), the bombs were really more of an exclamation point, a finishing flourish, than anything else in such light.
There's a lot made about how Japan was going to fight to the last person and all that, but mostly it's fantasy. Japan wasn't essentially was no longer able to field anything that required a motor, or if it did, it was a short one-way trip. Tanks, ships, aircraft, etc. Resources to build anything that required significant amounts of metal or specialized inputs (stuff to make hardened steel for instance) were no longer possible for Japan to produce (so no more artillery or shells, even small arms production was dramatically affected), or at least produce in any sort of quality. Her transportation network of roads and trains had been dramatically neutered and moving large numbers of troops and equipment would have been almost impossible. Food supplies were an issue and Japan would have starved. Sure they may have gotten some people to pick up spears and try their hand at fanatical resistance in some places, but that's historically been shown to be both a very short and very one-sided battle against western armies with automatic weapons, tanks, artillery, etc. The idea that the US would have suffered insane casualties is, in many ways, a fantasy.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/26 18:56:02
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Also, as I said before, it's debatable whether that is true or not. We may have been able to just wait. WE really don't know, as all the information had been destroyed. They certainly "ended the war", but it;s debatable that they were necessary or caused less casualties. And to even think about using them, or talk about rejuvenating the nuclear arms race, is disgusting. But this is Donald Trump we are talking about, so I guess that's just par for the course.
But don't worry it was Clinton who was going to start WWII.
Clinton is capable of time travel??!!
Sorry, I'm too much of a smart ass some days!
Ah missed the third "I" .
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
You do know that some of those "foreigners" are also armed with Nukes, some with enough to completely overwhelm any defensive "shield"?
Check your sarcasm detector please...
Who's being sarcastic? I'm genuinely checking that someone who made such a ridiculous statement might not be aware of the realities of modern geo-politics.
You do know that other foreign nations have nukes don't you? And they may also be prepared to use them in retaliation, or even preemptively against a foreign power, particularly one who is theatening them, encircling them, and has used them before. Even if that opponent is the mighty US of A.
There may have been a touch of sarcasm in this post.
"All their ferocity was turned outwards, against enemies of the State, foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals" - Orwell, 1984