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I think it's worth trying out the Black Legion before giving up the ghost. They have some neat tricks, beyond the Cyclopea Cabal.

Nomeny wrote:
I think it's worth trying out the Black Legion before giving up the ghost. They have some neat tricks, beyond the Cyclopea Cabal.

They're worse than the No-Name Crimson Slaughter! I love my Crimson Slaughter fluff though.

I'm personally a big fan of the unbound rules. I'd use them to mix the csm and sm units into the army you want to use. Use sm marine rules for your marines, use grav centurions, use oblits and heldrakes. As long as I know what's what and no one is trying to gain advantage in any way I'm happy.

I notice a lot of people allowing it because they don't care rather than some kind of sympathy for the players with a rubbish codex. The only real good CSM codex seems to grant is lesser risk when casting from the Malific Daemonology powers.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

Well now they all have relic weapons from around the Fang and everyone is a Wulfen for some reason.

Some reason would be their gene seed, all Space Wolves have the potential to turn Wulfen, the bigger question is why Murderfang doesn't have the curse bubble.

So after centuries if not millenia all the 13th Company just decide to go Wulfen in a matter of years. Right.

Actually the Curse has been pretty consistent throughout the Space Wolves fluff, they lose a good number of Aspirants to the Curse in the Test of Morkai, the thing that has changed is that the Curse is now infectious, being near Wulfen and hearing their cries triggers the Canis Helix more violently than normal, probably some warp juice from their time in the Eye of Terror which would explain to some degree why Murderfang doesn't have it.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I notice a lot of people allowing it because they don't care rather than some kind of sympathy for the players with a rubbish codex. The only real good CSM codex seems to grant is lesser risk when casting from the Malific Daemonology powers.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

Well now they all have relic weapons from around the Fang and everyone is a Wulfen for some reason.

Some reason would be their gene seed, all Space Wolves have the potential to turn Wulfen, the bigger question is why Murderfang doesn't have the curse bubble.

So after centuries if not millenia all the 13th Company just decide to go Wulfen in a matter of years. Right.

Actually the Curse has been pretty consistent throughout the Space Wolves fluff, they lose a good number of Aspirants to the Curse in the Test of Morkai, the thing that has changed is that the Curse is now infectious, being near Wulfen and hearing their cries triggers the Canis Helix more violently than normal, probably some warp juice from their time in the Eye of Terror which would explain to some degree why Murderfang doesn't have it.

Okay. None of this explains away my criticism.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I notice a lot of people allowing it because they don't care rather than some kind of sympathy for the players with a rubbish codex. The only real good CSM codex seems to grant is lesser risk when casting from the Malific Daemonology powers.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

Well now they all have relic weapons from around the Fang and everyone is a Wulfen for some reason.

Some reason would be their gene seed, all Space Wolves have the potential to turn Wulfen, the bigger question is why Murderfang doesn't have the curse bubble.

So after centuries if not millenia all the 13th Company just decide to go Wulfen in a matter of years. Right.

Actually the Curse has been pretty consistent throughout the Space Wolves fluff, they lose a good number of Aspirants to the Curse in the Test of Morkai, the thing that has changed is that the Curse is now infectious, being near Wulfen and hearing their cries triggers the Canis Helix more violently than normal, probably some warp juice from their time in the Eye of Terror which would explain to some degree why Murderfang doesn't have it.

Okay. None of this explains away my criticism.

Are you really expecting an answer beyond "wolfwolfwolf sell more models" or are you just being pugnacious?

sturgeondtd wrote:
Just to clarify, I would NOT be using CSM wargear with SM chapter tactics, I would be using all SM wargear, with only the color scheme and spikey bits of CSM.

Why not? My son does C:SM and I wouldn't have an issue if he showed up with drop pods and a heldrake.

 ManSandwich wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I notice a lot of people allowing it because they don't care rather than some kind of sympathy for the players with a rubbish codex. The only real good CSM codex seems to grant is lesser risk when casting from the Malific Daemonology powers.

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

Well now they all have relic weapons from around the Fang and everyone is a Wulfen for some reason.

Some reason would be their gene seed, all Space Wolves have the potential to turn Wulfen, the bigger question is why Murderfang doesn't have the curse bubble.

So after centuries if not millenia all the 13th Company just decide to go Wulfen in a matter of years. Right.

Actually the Curse has been pretty consistent throughout the Space Wolves fluff, they lose a good number of Aspirants to the Curse in the Test of Morkai, the thing that has changed is that the Curse is now infectious, being near Wulfen and hearing their cries triggers the Canis Helix more violently than normal, probably some warp juice from their time in the Eye of Terror which would explain to some degree why Murderfang doesn't have it.

Okay. None of this explains away my criticism.

Are you really expecting an answer beyond "wolfwolfwolf sell more models" or are you just being pugnacious?

Well, it's a false assumption that the Wulfen just sprung up, they've been around since Russ made his 'Sword Brothers' into Space Marines, the Canis Helix and Curse of the Wulfen are the reasons the Space Wolves don't have a successor chapter, the 13th company which was made up of Marines who had fallen to the curse chased the Thousand Sons into the warp so they aren't just a fad, their new look on the other hand is a bit different to the old models. You'll probably find a better explanation of how the warp mutates things in Chaos Marines or Daemonkin codex, I'm sure a Chaos player will lend you one for a read, especially while you're letting them play by the Space Marine codex.

 ManSandwich wrote:
Are you really expecting an answer beyond "wolfwolfwolf sell more models" or are you just being pugnacious?

Stahp plox

While it's a shame that people have to play CSM as Loyalists for a fair shake at the game, I don't have a problem with people proxying marines as a different flavour of marines as long as it's clear what is what. I'll probably be using my 40k Death Guard as a 30k Death Guard army at some point in the near future myself.

I can understand some reservation about proxying: lads at the local gaming club used to lunch boxes as proxy Rhinos and Drop Pods, one guy in particular had a random assortment of 25mm based minis that would proxied as almost any infantry unit week to week and that got terribly confusing.

Experiment 626 wrote:


The only reason to actually use the CSM codex as it stands, is because;

- you're a Nurgle fan, and thus, can at least cobble something half-way decent together out of MSU Plaguemarines, plus MoN Lord/Bikes/Spawn/Oblits.

Anywhere I can read up on this, I'm, uh, asking for a friend.

I think personally, in many circumstances you can come up with a -more- fluff driven list by doing such things, so I'm all for using the SM book for CSM.

I saw one list that had an Alpha Legion player using the Black Templars rules and loved it.

A couple things to also mention that is a stronger way to combat some player saying "I do not like CSM played at SM" is "Rule of Cool" and "WYSIWYG".
I think that is why Iron Warriors are a good fit: they look like how they play and when done consistently, they look pretty cool.

Funny how it was mentioned using the Imperial Fists: these guys have been the classic arch-enemy to the IW's since their Primarch was shooting off his mouth about the Imperial Palace being impervious.
Perturabo was many times ready to say "challenge accepted".

There will be nothing confusing about these guys.
I would argue further that after IW's smacked around a loyalist chapter, they would have zero issues with using their gear as spoils of war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IronMaster wrote:
I saw one list that had an Alpha Legion player using the Black Templars rules and loved it.

Heresy!
Those schemers cannot match the Bt's sublime simplicity of righteous anger applied to the enemy in honorable close combat!
The Ravenguard are a closer match at least from the sneaky end of things but Alpha Legion you would swear are the favored sons of Tzeentch: schemes within schemes.
Speaking of that, the thousand sons always "avoided" them for some reason not confirmed according to the Lexicanum.
They usually used all manner of non-direct "messing" with their enemy before a multi-directional simultaneous strike is made (the "harrowing" I think it was?).
I could see special rules for these guys is that none of your units in reserve arrive on-time (if at all) or undamaged with one big lightening strike applied to those who remain.

 Talizvar wrote:
A couple things to also mention that is a stronger way to combat some player saying "I do not like CSM played at SM" is "Rule of Cool" and "WYSIWYG".
I think that is why Iron Warriors are a good fit: they look like how they play and when done consistently, they look pretty cool.

Funny how it was mentioned using the Imperial Fists: these guys have been the classic arch-enemy to the IW's since their Primarch was shooting off his mouth about the Imperial Palace being impervious.
Perturabo was many times ready to say "challenge accepted".

There will be nothing confusing about these guys.
I would argue further that after IW's smacked around a loyalist chapter, they would have zero issues with using their gear as spoils of war.

Hell, the Iron Warriors don't use their hated enemy's gear, they even used their stolen gene-seed to make a bunch of equally hated b****** marines, who turned out to be better than 'real' Imp Fists, while also being worthless dogs in the eyes of their pure-bred brethren!

Any suggestions for formations/detachments and chapter tactics to use? I kind of wanted to use a stormraven, as I have always wanted to do a conversion to extend the model and include a sky hook for the dreadnought.

Other than that, I don't know if Iron Hands and using a bunch of techmarines with servo arms or go for Fists, heck maybe a gladous? I'm so lost with all of these crazy rules loyalists have.... please send help

Edit:
Through various sources of acquisition, I will be the proud owner of 7 drop pods, and 1 dread drop pod. I would like to use at least a few of these, and I was thinking using command squads in them could be fun

I use the Imperial Fists Sternhammer from angels of death, it gives you improved bolter drill (reroll ALL misses with bolters) and army wide stubborn if the general is alive when you just want to have all of the infantry and it has better options for including things like vindis, thunderfire cannons,extra devastator units and dreads plus all the usual C:SM gems.

Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

Why? The CSM book is unplayable, and using the models under C:SM is like just using a reskin.

sturgeondtd wrote:
Hello all,

Recently I have become quite tired of running CSM and finding that in order to field a list that will not be tabled almost every game in my meta I need to rely on units that are not Chaos Marines. My local meta includes a plethora of people running, necron decurions and stars, optimized tau detachments and multiple riptides, and super friends. I have found that using CSM, my only chance to win is using non marine troop choices and either resorting to demons or IA for the punch necessary. While I do have some IA units, I find the lack of marines in a CSM army to be less than satisfying, and I know if I resort to using them as they are now, I will stand no chance. My question is, would you mind someone using Codex: SM while their army scheme is definitely chaos (in my case Iron Warriors)? Obviously I would not use my units such as oblits, heldrake or spawn if I did this, but would use choices such as chapter tactics, detachments, the all so elusive grav and most importantly FINALLY USE SOME DROP PODS(!). And this would be at least until an update arrives for the current CSM codex.

Embrace it completely. Use it as an excuse to expand your artistic side by adding in marine units but converting them into a more chaosy context. Just make sure they are easily WYSIWYG in general. For example, tweek some terminators with a little modeling to look like an assault cannon is literally growing out of their arm and maybe has a nice demon head snout. Any heavies can be tweeked to look a little demon enginey, that sort of thing. Just make it all look cool and coherent.

Remember, codexes change. When the chaos dex again becomes the best you'll be set.

Remember to the Eldar, all you Mon-Keigh look alike...

Don't see much difference with loyals chapter hopping between imperial fist, dark angels, grey knights etc with same models so...Shoot. If you want go for it.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

With that attitude I sure hope every one of your models is painted in the chapter colours of the chapter you're using. Otherwise, you're playing with models that aren't 100% right too.

Do whatever makes you happy (within reason)

Completely ok with it

 Purifier wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

With that attitude I sure hope every one of your models is painted in the chapter colours of the chapter you're using. Otherwise, you're playing with models that aren't 100% right too.

Haha yeah no more iron hands with white scar chapter. Or some custom colour scheme that mystically changes chapter every game...

Of course not. If it means that a person will have fun, then let him have it.

tneva82 wrote:
Haha yeah no more iron hands with white scar chapter. Or some custom colour scheme that mystically changes chapter every game...

I thought that was the entire reason to make your own chapter: I can pick any loyalist chapter rule I want!!!!

 Purifier wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

With that attitude I sure hope every one of your models is painted in the chapter colours of the chapter you're using. Otherwise, you're playing with models that aren't 100% right too.

Actually they are. That's the whole point of different codices...

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

Space Marine players, when you being slated for being elitist anus's look no further than people with this kind of attitude.

Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Actually they are. That's the whole point of different codices...

Beg to differ on that point (awesome they are painted "properly" though!)
It is to get a slightly different play style for a given "vanilla" space marines.
Black Templar are my main go-to and the black and white scheme is striking but their running at the enemy when angry is kinda fun, or the 5 man squads or the 20 man squads or the please oh please issue a challenge.
There are a few neat twists in each group not just the colour scheme.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

What about this is significantly different than using a made-up chapter? Think of it as he's playing Space Marines using [whichever chapter tactics he decided] and calling them Iron Warriors while modeling them as chaos/renegades. Much better than "If you wanna play Chaos you have to get gak on."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

Or hell, even if it wasn't an unplayable codex, if someone wants to use rules that they believe will fit their models better, why not?

master of ordinance wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Yes, I do mind. Play space marines if you're playing Space marines. Play chaos space marines if you're doing chaos, that simple.

Space Marine players, when you being slated for being elitist anus's look no further than people with this kind of attitude.

Actually I don't play space marines, lol. But my models are still painted the "correct" way for the factions I play.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Now THAT is a TFG attitude. Not letting someone use a better codex instead of the unplayable one?

Im a TFG for playing the game properly? It's not my fault (or anyone else's) that chaos is bad. That's like me using space wolves with the dark angels codex, doesn't make much sense, does it? If anything switching codex is the TFG thing, get a godly codex with no downsides by still being chaos, sounds pretty WAAC to me.