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Hello all,

Recently I have become quite tired of running CSM and finding that in order to field a list that will not be tabled almost every game in my meta I need to rely on units that are not Chaos Marines. My local meta includes a plethora of people running, necron decurions and stars, optimized tau detachments and multiple riptides, and super friends. I have found that using CSM, my only chance to win is using non marine troop choices and either resorting to demons or IA for the punch necessary. While I do have some IA units, I find the lack of marines in a CSM army to be less than satisfying, and I know if I resort to using them as they are now, I will stand no chance. My question is, would you mind someone using Codex: SM while their army scheme is definitely chaos (in my case Iron Warriors)? Obviously I would not use my units such as oblits, heldrake or spawn if I did this, but would use choices such as chapter tactics, detachments, the all so elusive grav and most importantly FINALLY USE SOME DROP PODS(!). And this would be at least until an update arrives for the current CSM codex.

I specifically recommend it to CSM players.

I think it's fine. We do stuff like this all the time at our store. Use 40k Marines for 30k Marines (and vice versa). As long as it's easy to tell what's what, you should be fine.

Just say it's a recently turned to chaos renegade chapter, so has most of it's resources and doctrines in tact.

Literally nobody will blame you because the CSM codex is very uninspired, bland, and gak.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a chapter that would be inline with IW? I was thinking maybe something for imperial fists, since they are rivals... but I do not know SM formations/supplements very well

Iron warriors are my first choice for CSM played as straight SM.
In the fluff they are very pragmatic and have no real allegiance to chaos gods.
They were also known for cutting off mutation and replacing with cybernetics.
I would suggest you field as "Iron Hands" and for added flavor, IG/AM allies and get some hardware out there.
All the steel and hazard stripe is quite striking in numbers.
A Chaos IK is a nice thought... in IW colors it would be awesome.
Ooooh! Baneblade!

For conversion, most "normal" SM armor is fine, using some knight like helmets from the Templar upgrade pack or Grey Knights would work.
These were the original "angry marines" so many studs on the armor would work well.

Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

I second Talizvar, using Iron Warriors as the "Warriors of Iron", a Succesor Chapter of the Iron Hands would totally fit with IW doctrines. Allying in an Emperor's Wrath Artillery formation would also keep nicely to the fluff. It's what I intend to do should I ever feel the need to run my IW again if I actually wanted to win a game.

I will probably keep the IW theme, and if anyone asks either say; they were a loyalist Grand Battalion lost in the Warp and they only recently re-entered the materium and time has warped, or that they looted/control a forge world from which they had access to Imperial gear.

Iron hands sound about right, thanks for the suggestion!

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

Well now they all have relic weapons from around the Fang and everyone is a Wulfen for some reason.

I have sometimes thought of using Codex: Space Marines to make a Night Lords army using the Raven Guard rules. Or Death Guard using Iron Hands. Or Emperor's Children using White Scars. Honestly, as long as the models match the rules in terms of equipment, I don't care what my opponent is using. I think using C:SM as a stopgap between now and when a good CSM codex comes is perfectly acceptable.

I'm sure there will be some who have an issue with it, but really there shouldn't be one. Unless people are unwilling to play against space marines normally, they shouldn't have a problem with them having a few extra spikes.

Not sure on specifics, but using legion rules from HH might give more flavour, IF your opponents are willing.

I don't see any issue with this.

i.e. Proxy CSM as being not-yet-excommunicated-but-soon-to-be-Space-marines?

So, just for the chapter tactics with CSM equipment? I mean, sure - give 'em Iron Hand CT and anything Slaanesh becomes annoyingly hard to kill. I don't know.. probably misunderstanding that..

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

Well now they all have relic weapons from around the Fang and everyone is a Wulfen for some reason.

Some reason would be their gene seed, all Space Wolves have the potential to turn Wulfen, the bigger question is why Murderfang doesn't have the curse bubble.

I use my Iron Warriors in 40k as Imperial Fists Chapter tacs, mostly because the rules are more in line with what Iron Warriors do.

I prefer Iron Hands. Seems like the Bionic FnP and IWND tanks are closer to Iron Warriors.

 King Amroth wrote:
I use my Iron Warriors in 40k as Imperial Fists Chapter tacs, mostly because the rules are more in line with what Iron Warriors do.

That certainly makes sense. The Imperial Fists penchant for tearing stuff down (their Tank Hunters ability and their Demolition Expertise from Angels of Death) is absolutely in line with what the Iron Warriors do.

Just to clarify, I would NOT be using CSM wargear with SM chapter tactics, I would be using all SM wargear, with only the color scheme and spikey bits of CSM.

Ehh, while it is effectively just using alternative models, the fact that those models represent another playable faction is going to get people a bit confused at times.

I mean, imagine someone using Space Wolves models to play vanilla Space Marines while having every weapon and piece of wargear represented accurately. Their opponent's going to treat those Space Wolves as Space Wolves when planning their gameplay, because the human brain is incapable of separating how things look and how they work. If you put on a doctor's lab coat, you will behave and think differently than you would just wearing casual clothes. If you put on that same labcoat but someone tells you it's an artist's smock instead, the effects are different.

sturgeondtd wrote:
Just to clarify, I would NOT be using CSM wargear with SM chapter tactics, I would be using all SM wargear, with only the color scheme and spikey bits of CSM.

That's perfectly fine. I would avoid C:SM wargear that isn't available to CSM though. Like I said, I have considered this same exact thing a number of times. Running Emperor's Children using White Scars is one of the ones I am leaning toward.

lol I started my Iron Warriors with BAC and forgeworld heresy models so i dont need to worry about silly spikes and mutations everywhere. My marines look like super soldiers not the losers in a halloween dress up contest.

If you don't find a way to play a fluffy CSm army with the CSM Codex it's totally viable to use a more fitting codex. Raven Guard/White Scars as Night Lords, Space Wolves as World Eaters, Imperial Fists as Iron Warriors and so on. However, if you just use the loyalist codes to get free transports, space marines inside space marines and OP psykers, I'd consider that lazy.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
However, if you just use free transports, space marines inside space marines and OP psykers, I'd consider that lazy.

FTFY, now it applies to everyone.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Where's the option for "LOOT THE LOYALIST SCUM'S STUFF, IT SHOULD BE OURS ANYWAY!!!" ?

You'll find something similar yet reversed in the Space Wolves 13th company. The Wulfen have been looting Chaos equipment since they chased them into the warp.

Well now they all have relic weapons from around the Fang and everyone is a Wulfen for some reason.

Some reason would be their gene seed, all Space Wolves have the potential to turn Wulfen, the bigger question is why Murderfang doesn't have the curse bubble.

So after centuries if not millenia all the 13th Company just decide to go Wulfen in a matter of years. Right.

In reality this boils down to a

"Hey can i proxy SM models with Chaos models,"

Which n one really cares as long as they are roughly the same size and shape.

Marines are Marines

If the rules of a book fit a specific theme better than another one, there is no problem to switch.

As long as there is nothing better available, Thousand Sond will be represented better on the table with Codex Grey Knights and World Eaters with Codex SW.

As long as all conversions are done well, no one will complain.

All of my units, barring my heldrakes, are 30k units, so I shouldn't have much of a problem with units being the same size, the only difference is my tanks have those spiked railings all over them.

I have decided to use Iron Hands tactics and run a CAD using command squads in drop pods. Was thinking about a formation, but I don't want to buy a ton of new units.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If you don't find a way to play a fluffy CSm army with the CSM Codex it's totally viable to use a more fitting codex. Raven Guard/White Scars as Night Lords, Space Wolves as World Eaters, Imperial Fists as Iron Warriors and so on. However, if you just use the loyalist codes to get free transports, space marines inside space marines and OP psykers, I'd consider that lazy.

You do realise that at this point, the "current" CSM codex is damn near unplayable?!

The only reason to actually use the CSM codex as it stands, is because;
- you want lots of Daemon engines

- you're a Nurgle fan, and thus, can at least cobble something half-way decent together out of MSU Plaguemarines, plus MoN Lord/Bikes/Spawn/Oblits.

- you're adding a Cyclopia Cabal or AoBF Jugger Lord to another Chaos list.



Otherwise, playing CSM's at this point is akin to playing the game on lunatic setting because you enjoy getting beaten senseless and/or want the single greatest challenge that 40k can offer.

And let's be honest, it's not like CSM players are the only 'Marine' players who'd readily codex/chapter tactics hop for advantage...