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So I realize this is being a bit late to the party, but how exactly did the daemon's codex pass playtesting? Not in a "wow this is so broken and unfair" way, but in a "maybe we have a fewwwwww too many random tables for the player to roll on" way.

Reason why I mention this, is because somehow I ended up playing a game of 7th ed today. Shocking, I know.

Anyways, it was a simple casual 1,000pts IG vs Daemons, and I swear I've never seen someone have to leaf through so many tables in my life. It seemed like thats all his army did. You'd get a warlord then roll to see what abilities he got, what weapons he had, whether the void ripped open and sucked a unit out of existence, etc. etc. He had to roll for pysker abilities, he had to roll for warp charge, then he'd have to roll to see how many shots he got. He'd get random storms every turn he had, all except for one either actively screwed him by worsening invuln saves or summoning storms that attacked us both. The invuln hit happening twice in a row was particularly bad and went a long way to helping me win. Before the game even started, poor guy had to roll up 6 different things and then write them down so he could remember what he had. Add all this into the regular variation 40k has (reserves, deepstriking, rolls to hit and assault, etc.) and it just felt like the guy had little control of what was happening.

It really didnt feel fair. I rolled to randomly determine a warlord trait and that was it. Everything else in my army was a known quantity. I knew the weapons I would have, what equipment they would use, and didnt have random drawbacks like daemonic instability or warp storms to deal with. If I wanted to use an order, I didnt have to randomly roll to see if I got FRFSRF or Bring it Down, I had all of them available and could use them at will. I've been out of 40k for nearly 3 years, and yet I could remember everything rules wise pretty easily for IG, only having to check the new orders table occasionally and the litanies the priests get, which are very straightforward.


I guess my main question is, how did this seem like a good idea? Some of the ideas in a vacuum seem interesting, like the warp storm causing random effects on the table, but with so many in the mix it felt like way too much. My opponent was great and I had a good time, but I definitely felt like he was being unfairly screwed by the dice. With so many things to roll against, it just seemed inevitable his luck would turn. He made a couple of good moves that shouldve had me but then he'd roll 7 shots with a 4d6 pyschic shooting attack, or he'd end up giving me FNP for shooting a platoon after killing one guardsman(something I didnt even know was possible) or he'd get regular bad luck like having a daemon prince fail to kill a Leman Russ in assault. Any of these in a vacuum could be survived but with so many chances to go wrong, they snowballed. Add in IG's special rule of "I roll more dice than vegas" shooting phases and it was rough to watch.

Is it not that bad usually? I've been away from 40k for so long I have no idea if this guy had a freak game or if this is par for the course right now. Do the daemons have a way to mitigate the odds in any way? Because as it sits it seems like daemons play Russian roullette every turn, meaning they have to fight their own codex as much as the opponent. I get that thats kind of the point of the warp lorewise but that doesnt really make it good game design.

6th Edition Chaos codices are defined by randomness for the sake of randomness; take Chaos Space Marines for example. There's a D66 chart for your characters earning rewards both pre-game and mid-game, the way Possessed and Chaos Spawn function in combat changes based on a D3 roll, the number of attacks Chaos Spawn have is equal to a D6 roll, Daemon Weapon confer +D6 attacks with a penalty resulting if you roll a one, etc.

Daemons took that concept to eleven; you roll each turn to see what the Warpstorm does, you roll up psychic powers/Warlord Traits as normal like other armies but you also have to roll Gifts for any character and each character can have multiple Gifts with three separate charts and different equipment based on which God the Daemon is dedicated to, plus Daemons just generally have lots of whacky rules to keep in mind (did you know that Seekers run 6+D6"?). Other armies have their random elements such as Necrons with their Powers of the C'tan or Tyranids with their Instinctive Behaviour, but no-one does random better than Chaos Daemons.

Hell, sticking to Chaos, Chaos Renegades have to roll to determine what their Leadership values are! Because...fun?

It is a bit much, I play Tzeentch daemons with a warlord trait, 4 rewards and 17 powers to keep track of (at 1500).

The randomness is why so many people shoehorn Fateweaver into all lists.
On the other hand it is quite fluffy (esp. for Tzeentch) and if you don't take 40k too seriously* it's usually loads of fun. Plus the random spells, random rewards and summoning mean that my army is and plays a bit differently in every game, which keeps it interesting.

*I hold that the warhammers are NOT meant to be competitive tests of your mind vs your opponent's. I'm not saying there is no skill at all, but the game seems to be designed and is more enjoyable (i.e. you don't get the urge to rage quit) if you approach it as a opportunity to have some fun, laughs and epic stuff go down with your AWESOME toys on the table. With winning as just a reason to actually do stuff, but not really the point.
+

Sometimes it's mindbogging how reliably such a random army gets access to 2++ re-rollable.

Ways to help mitigate Demon randomness:

Warpstorm Table

The "Lord of Unreality" Warlord Trait lets you re-roll the Warpstorm result (Fateweaver comes with this warlord trait)

Run a Demonic Incursion detachment from Curse of the Wulfen - one of the Command Benefits is you can choose to add or subtract 1 from the Warpstorm Table results

Instruments of Chaos let you re-roll a D6 to see if a unit gets hit by the 5/6/7/8 results (of the same alignment, so a unit of Plaguebearers with an instrument can use it to re-roll a D6 from the Nurgle Warpstorm result).

Don't take Demons as the primary detachment.

Psychic Powers

Get the Psychic Cards! Extremely helpful for both you and your opponent, and this goes for any Psyker heavy army too (Grey Knights, Eldar etc). I personally can't imagine trying to deal without having the cards. The Chaos Demon datacard pack includes all the new Psychic Powers from Curse of the Wulfen too which is nice.

Demonic Rewards

Figure out in advance if you're going to substitute for a Magic Weapon. Saves you having to roll, and you can just note it on your army list.

Make up little cards/tokens, similar to the Psychic Cards, to simplify rolling/tracking the rewards.

Once you've considered those points, the rest of the randomness is pretty much the same as any other army. The changes to the Psychic Phase in 7th Edition affect everyone, and everyone has to deal with the randomness. Since Tzeentch Demons rely heavily on psychic powers that means they just have to accept they are at the mercy of the dice (but that is true of any other Psyker heavy army like Grey Knights, Eldar etc). The only other tip would be to try and stay away from Psychic Shooting in general and put more effort in to making sure the Blessing/Malediction powers go off since they are almost always more useful.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Ways to help mitigate Demon randomness:

Warpstorm Table

The "Lord of Unreality" Warlord Trait lets you re-roll the Warpstorm result (Fateweaver comes with this warlord trait)

Run a Demonic Incursion detachment from Curse of the Wulfen - one of the Command Benefits is you can choose to add or subtract 1 from the Warpstorm Table results

Instruments of Chaos let you re-roll a D6 to see if a unit gets hit by the 5/6/7/8 results (of the same alignment, so a unit of Plaguebearers with an instrument can use it to re-roll a D6 from the Nurgle Warpstorm result).

None of these three makes you have to roll less things. In fact, it makes you have to roll more things.

I never said it makes you roll less, I said it helps mitigate randomness.

I'm not really sure what the point of trying to make you roll as little as possible is. The OP was talking about having an Imperial Guard Platoon and FRFSRF - any extra rolling that a Tzeentch Demon army does in the psychic phase is offset by rolling next to nothing in the Shooting phase...

Here is a not so negative perspective on the randomness of chaos:
Chaos players don't tend to be too serious (this was reflected better in the older editions when we could take bikers high on EVERY drug) and seldom have a plan when going into battles. For example, when I play, I tend to just get in my opponants face with whatever the Gods of chaos have chosen to give to me.
If I get -1 invul: I'll have to kill them before they kill me.
If I get horrible psychic powers: hurrah! Don't have to deal with the psychic phase.
If I get 3+ armour when I already have it: let's give a chaos weapon a try.

I like to see Daemons as an army you never get bored of because you can't use the same tactic each game. We also have to keep the skulls and blood flowing for tax purposes.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So I realize this is being a bit late to the party, but how exactly did the daemon's codex pass playtesting?

It didn't. GW does not playtest. Evidence you ask?

Well...

Wraithknights
Unplayable CSM
Even at 5ppm the IG have the worst infantry in the game
Ordnance rules killed the iconic IG tank horde
Random = fun mindset
Original AoS rules
Wildly disproportionate formation bonuses/restrictions
The CSM supplement "updates"

Well as a whole, 40k is a terribly balanced and incoherent game that's likely not been play tested. Daemons are a prime example of this.

 Selym wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So I realize this is being a bit late to the party, but how exactly did the daemon's codex pass playtesting?

Random = fun mindset

And this. This so much.

The "random xD is good" meme needs to die. It's a lazy and tiresome excuse. It's a /tg/qsque tier excuse. The kind that people spam in all caps and bold.

I'd rather a fluff inaccurate Daemons army that has a chance of winning (hell 40k as a game is barely fluff accurate at all, so it's a poor excuse to make) and hell, a fluff inaccurate game, as long as it was balanced and coherent.

I love how there is a "deamons are way to weak" and a "deamons are way to op" made within a few weeks of each other.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I love how there is a "deamons are way to weak" and a "deamons are way to op" made within a few weeks of each other.

I must have missed the daemons are too weak thread, because this one is about them being too random.

And yes, they are way too random. I forgot who uses the term, but the amount of charts and tables and effects can only be called randumb.

 koooaei wrote:
Sometimes it's mindbogging how reliably such a random army gets access to 2++ re-rollable.

It's unfortunately not difficult considering just how many of those "random" rolls involve bonuses to invuls.

A list off the top of my head:
-All Tzeencth Daemons re-roll saves of '1"
-Tz WL trait of +1 invul (Tis is the big one for the Tetrad, since it will apply to all the PRinces, not just the Tz one)
-Greater reward of re-roll all invuls (this is the only way non-Tz Daemons get re-rolls)
-Warpstorm result of +1 re-roll (chances of this are tripled if using an Incurstion)
-Cursed Earth (this one is big since you can spam psykers to get it and it affects so many models on the table)
-Forewarning from Divination
-Daemonic robes (3++ to the wearer)
-Grimiore

The last 2 are items you can just buy, so no randomness there (unless Grimiore fails). There is a very high chance of getting 2++ re-rollable on your WL, either by combining Robes + Cursed Earth, or FW + Grimiore.
It is unlikely to have most of the army with a 2++ re-rollabel as that requires and all Tz army, you must roll the +1 Invul WL trait (as it affects all Tz Deamons within 9"), you need to have the Incursion army to try for the +1 Warp Strom result, you probably need to have FW and at least a few psykers to have Cursed Earth.

 Blacksails wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I love how there is a "deamons are way to weak" and a "deamons are way to op" made within a few weeks of each other.

I must have missed the daemons are too weak thread, because this one is about them being too random.

And yes, they are way too random. I forgot who uses the term, but the amount of charts and tables and effects can only be called randumb.

Daemon randomness is fine, and in no way is it anywhere near the levels of stupidity that is the CSM "randumb."

For newcomers to the army, yes, it's time consuming until you learn how to both better organise yourself (which as long as your older than 6 or so, shouldn't require much effort), and come to both memorise & learn which rewards you tend to favour.
Hell, I don't even roll for half my Gifts! Most of what I take is just a defaulted weapon; Boomstick for LoC, Etherblades/Axe of Khorne for unit chumps, Mutating Warpblade for 'fighty' Tzherald/Prince, etc...
The other Gifts tend to be almost all Greater Gifts, meaning I have to memorise 1 stinking chart of 6 results, most of which are defensive boosts. (only 4 & 6 are bad results)

Psychic powers is no different than any other psychic heavy army, of which GK's, Eldar & anyone running a Convlave/Cabal is equally guilty of. If you're going to run a psychic heavy army, then the onus is on you to either get the cards, or make your own, as they are massive time savers! (seriously, at this point, I consider it a TFG move to NOT invest in/make your own psychic cards after a month or so of running a psychic intensive army!)

Once you become accustomed to how the army works, it really doesn't take much time at all to set everything up.

Really, the only ones I tend to hear whining or outright *****ing that Daemons are this "lolzRandumb!" unplayable mess are non-Daemon players who have no clue what they're really talking about...
Sure it's a wildly different army, from its very concept to how it can play out. And sure, Daemons tend to be more prone to dice screwing than other armies, but that's also half the fun of the army! You never get two games that are entirely 'the same' with a Daemon army, and the way it generates its wargear and other abilities keeps the army fresh and fun to always play!

Experiment 626 wrote:
[
Really, the only ones I tend to hear whining or outright *****ing that Daemons are this "lolzRandumb!" unplayable mess are non-Daemon players who have no clue what they're really talking about...

No, I think most people complaining about the random aspect of the army know exactly what they're talking about, in that they're complaining about a specific element of the army, which sort of kind of confirms they know what they're talking about.

Part of the random issues stems from the core rules, as you mentioned psykers, which has way too many unnecessary charts that really should be left to the player to either choose or pay for the power/trait they want. On top of that, rolling randomly for wargear is literally just poor and lazy game design for when you don't feel like going back and putting the effort in to balance and playtest the various upgrades. And that's not even getting into what the OP was pointing out is really absurd, is the totally random in game effects.

But I'd like to hear what about the CSM codex is more randumb than having warp storms blast your units or get randomly sucked into the warp.

I'm liking all these posts telling me what's fun, and that I should be having fun, and how it's fun and it's really fun, and like I should really be aware that's it's fun.

See the thing is, at not point am I having fun. Strange.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Demonic Rewards

Figure out in advance if you're going to substitute for a Magic Weapon. Saves you having to roll, and you can just note it on your army list.

Yes and no. "Yes" if you only have one gift from a chart that you know you're gonna swap out (like you take one lesser reward on a daemon specifically for the weapon or take an exalted for an artifact), but "no" if you've got two rewards to roll for on the same chart. Generally in the "no" case you should want to see both results and then decide which one to swap out, and it seems like a lot of the time greater daemons are getting two greater rewards, so that's where this would come in.

One of my club's players decided to make an all Daemon army this season in preparation for OFCC. Watching him build, play test, and run the army... just a nightmare of randomness. He would just dominate in the Psychic phase with 20+ power dice, but man. Before deployment, roll on tables. Every turn, roll on tables. During play- roll on tables. He was really, really frustrated in the beginning of his "training" because of how inconsistent the army was. He would win big, he would lose big, and usually somewhere in between. Every game was different, and it was all but impossible for him to plan on anything. So when OFCC finally rolled around, he just rolled with the punches in every game. At the end of OFCC, he declared he was done with Daemons and going back to Guard.

GW must have thought the best way to simulate the chaos of Daemons was to use a lot of random effects and tables, which on the face of it, sounds great, but in practice, fails horribly.

 Tamwulf wrote:
One of my club's players decided to make an all Daemon army this season in preparation for OFCC. Watching him build, play test, and run the army... just a nightmare of randomness. He would just dominate in the Psychic phase with 20+ power dice, but man. Before deployment, roll on tables. Every turn, roll on tables. During play- roll on tables. He was really, really frustrated in the beginning of his "training" because of how inconsistent the army was. He would win big, he would lose big, and usually somewhere in between. Every game was different, and it was all but impossible for him to plan on anything. So when OFCC finally rolled around, he just rolled with the punches in every game. At the end of OFCC, he declared he was done with Daemons and going back to Guard.

GW must have thought the best way to simulate the chaos of Daemons was to use a lot of random effects and tables, which on the face of it, sounds great, but in practice, fails horribly.

Honestly, a bunch of this stuff isn't too bad, and can actually be fun (animosity and chaotic units were hilarious in older Fantasy. I played Skaven, and I loved facing Orcs & Goblins)
The real problem is how the books are designed and the kind of stuff they've decided to make random. It's a ridiculous amount of flipping back and forth, and getting a random weapon isn't fun. It's just more gak to try and keep track of.

Winds of chaos is actually sort of a neat idea. It just goes "here's an effect, work it out and then forget about it." Goblin Fanatics were hilarious, and Skaven volatility of their weapons was amazing. It felt rewarding to incinerate an enemy unit with a warpflamer because you knew when you used it that it might just blow up.

I feel the problem isn't that there is a bunch of random stuff, it's that it's so uninventive and the implementation is terribly unintuitive.

Most opponents don't enjoy it as much as the Daemons player when they have no idea whats going on, especially when you possess their psychic Warlord on turn one.

Since Warhammer worlds tournaments (the only ones I go to) now focus on favourite game votes, good luck getting any votes with Daemons there.

Trying to explain the Rewards and Warp Storm in a noisy hall isn't fun either.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So I realize this is being a bit late to the party, but how exactly did the daemon's codex pass playtesting? Not in a "wow this is so broken and unfair" way, but in a "maybe we have a fewwwwww too many random tables for the player to roll on" way.

Have you looked at the 7E rules? It's random table upon random table upon random table. GW's core design philosophy is all about Random Tables. It's not about making a functional tactical wargame adherent to a background material source, it's about a sanbox framework to generate ridiculous results to amuse 12 year olds. That's what GW's aim is.

The simple fact that GW hasn't done playtesting in over 7 years.

 GoonBandito wrote:
I never said it makes you roll less, I said it helps mitigate randomness.

I'm not really sure what the point of trying to make you roll as little as possible is. The OP was talking about having an Imperial Guard Platoon and FRFSRF - any extra rolling that a Tzeentch Demon army does in the psychic phase is offset by rolling next to nothing in the Shooting phase...

Rolling dice period isnt the problem. I was running an infantry horde and consistently having my turns be shorter than him even though I out numbered him 2:1 and was moving up the board while he mostly stsyed still. I could play much faster because my army was constant.

The problem is having the guy have to roll on so many tables. I brought up FRFSRF as an example because thats an order, a special thing only IG gets. At the start of the game, I do not randomly roll to determine if I get that order, I just get it along with every other order the IG get. I dont randomly have to roll at the start of the game to see if my command unit can take a standard. I dont have to randomly determine which war hymn my Priest uses in assault, I just get to pick. I dont randomly roll to see if command nukes half my army on turn 3 because I came from a different planet than him (bit extreme but you get the idea) I rolled for one random table, warlord trait, and that was it. We also rolled the mission and deployment but I dont even count those since thats always been a thing.

I just cant imagine having to deal with your own codex actively fighting you as being fun. We were playing a casual game but it didnt look particularly fun or relaxing to him. Granted from what I understand he's kind of new to daemons and he definitely had bad luck with dice, but if so it still shows its a pretty poorly designed book if people struggle that much with it at first.

I dont get the hate. I think rewards and psy powers are a huge part of the fun of my army. Not to mention it gives me a slight element of list tailoring pregame. Opponent brought transports? I might keep the hellfire gaze i rolled instead of swapping it for a weapon.

Most of the greater rewards are really good anyways.

The warp storm rarely does anything huge, and there's ways to mitigate that now. Even that i find fun and interesting and always look forward to my warp storm rolls.

I guess maybe ive got a knack for remembering tables or something, but at this point they're all in my head.

I used microsoft one note to keep my tables all next to eachother just one click away when i first started daemons. Its alot easier than flipping through a book. But at this point i dont use it anymore, i just memorized my stuff.

Tl;dr- i think its fun and interesting, and dont view it as a problem in any way. It adds flavour.

Again, my play experience is limited, but my guess is 6th Edition codex being the main cause.

SG

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


I just cant imagine having to deal with your own codex actively fighting you as being fun. We were playing a casual game but it didnt look particularly fun or relaxing to him. Granted from what I understand he's kind of new to daemons and he definitely had bad luck with dice, but if so it still shows its a pretty poorly designed book if people struggle that much with it at first.

Different strokes for different folks.

I really enjoy my daemons, the random isn't so bad. Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it's a boon. Generally its just part of the book. Sometimes the stars align and you have a greater daemon that got all the perfect rewards and powers and is nigh unkillable outside a 6 on the D table. Other times they are a hodge podge of thrift shop goodies. Always an exercise to change your tactics and pull the win out.

 Blacksails wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
[
Really, the only ones I tend to hear whining or outright *****ing that Daemons are this "lolzRandumb!" unplayable mess are non-Daemon players who have no clue what they're really talking about...

No, I think most people complaining about the random aspect of the army know exactly what they're talking about, in that they're complaining about a specific element of the army, which sort of kind of confirms they know what they're talking about.

Part of the random issues stems from the core rules, as you mentioned psykers, which has way too many unnecessary charts that really should be left to the player to either choose or pay for the power/trait they want. On top of that, rolling randomly for wargear is literally just poor and lazy game design for when you don't feel like going back and putting the effort in to balance and playtest the various upgrades. And that's not even getting into what the OP was pointing out is really absurd, is the totally random in game effects.

But I'd like to hear what about the CSM codex is more randumb than having warp storms blast your units or get randomly sucked into the warp.

1. We had boring, pay-for-powers back in the day, and they sucked hard core. Everyone only ever took the 2-3 most busted as gak powers, and they were typically all horrifically undercosted and/or had obnoxious effects. (*cough*pavaneofslaanesh*cough*)
I much prefer the 'new' more Fantasy styled system, as now we actually get to see more than 3 or so specific powers out of the 50-60+ that actually exist... Sure it's not perfect, (Daemonology of both flavours is busted as all get-out), but it's a heck of a lot more enjoyable than 3rd/4th/5th ed was.

2. Rolling for our wargear would be lazy & stupid if it was as horriawful as the Fantasy Daemons book...
The 40k one is fine, as there's an underlying element of organisation to all the tables. (ie: you want protection? buy a Greater Gift/s) Outside of the Lesser table, there's maybe 1 actual 'bad' result. (Wind of Chaos from the Exalted table is NOT in any way close to being worth 30pts!)

If you really want to know what "poor and lazy design" is, go look at the clusterfeth tables from the Fantasy book... THAT is an actual example of "randumb" at its finest!

3. There are now so many ways to mitigate the Warpstorm table that it's not even remotely an issues anymore. Between Fateweaver/Instruments/Incursion detachment/not making Daemons themselves the Primary, it's never been easier to control that thing.
Nor does it really take that long, since Daemons pretty much skip the shooting phase outside of a bare handful of models.


I much prefer my Daemons and their controlled randomness, as compared to my CSM's who end up with a Cultist Champion turning into a DP, while Ahriman farts and explodes into a Chaos Spawn because he accidently kicked a lowly Sergeant in the junk...

Nor do I have army-wide rules that actively work against me, (looking at you Champion of Chaos!), or being forced to shell out ridiculous pts just to ensure my HQ's don't get hosed by said rule... Or else my psychic tables being complete junk, my Mark having no actual effect unless it's on a unit which already has an invuln save, Fearless on top of Fearless bonuses, etc, etc...

Experiment 626 wrote:
1. We had boring, pay-for-powers back in the day, and they sucked hard core. Everyone only ever took the 2-3 most busted as gak powers, and they were typically all horrifically undercosted and/or had obnoxious effects. (*cough*pavaneofslaanesh*cough*)
I much prefer the 'new' more Fantasy styled system, as now we actually get to see more than 3 or so specific powers out of the 50-60+ that actually exist... Sure it's not perfect, (Daemonology of both flavours is busted as all get-out), but it's a heck of a lot more enjoyable than 3rd/4th/5th ed was.

Well, I don't think this is an argument for random being good, but an argument for GW's terrible balance. In a perfect world, if GW actually bothered to proofread and play test, wouldn't you rather have a choice in what you wanted to take assuming all options were equally viable depending on certain combos and builds? Then you can have a daemon who doesn't forget what to take to work every morning so he doesn't have to skulk back home to his daemon partner after losing to those damned space marines because he forgot his favourite cursed axe.

2. Rolling for our wargear would be lazy & stupid if it was as horriawful as the Fantasy Daemons book...
The 40k one is fine, as there's an underlying element of organisation to all the tables. (ie: you want protection? buy a Greater Gift/s) Outside of the Lesser table, there's maybe 1 actual 'bad' result. (Wind of Chaos from the Exalted table is NOT in any way close to being worth 30pts!)

I'm sure its better than some other examples, but wouldn't you rather just pick what kind of daemon you want? (again, assuming someone competent wrote the book)

If you really want to know what "poor and lazy design" is, go look at the clusterfeth tables from the Fantasy book... THAT is an actual example of "randumb" at its finest!

I don't doubt you. Haven't played much fantasy myself, so I can't comment. I have heard that one edition of the daemons book literally broke the game though.

3. There are now so many ways to mitigate the Warpstorm table that it's not even remotely an issues anymore. Between Fateweaver/Instruments/Incursion detachment/not making Daemons themselves the Primary, it's never been easier to control that thing.
Nor does it really take that long, since Daemons pretty much skip the shooting phase outside of a bare handful of models.

Those ways to mitigate just seem like ways to punish players who don't use a specific build to mitigate the effects. Surely not taking daemons as a primary to avoid warpstorm is kind of ridiculous if you want to play daemons, right? While there are ways to avoid it, I feel that better design would have been to make it so warpstorm isn't a random thing with potentially far reaching effects, and then make all those mitigating abilities into straight bonuses that are dependable for the army, instead of anti-random elements.

I much prefer my Daemons and their controlled randomness, as compared to my CSM's who end up with a Cultist Champion turning into a DP, while Ahriman farts and explodes into a Chaos Spawn because he accidently kicked a lowly Sergeant in the junk...

Nor do I have army-wide rules that actively work against me, (looking at you Champion of Chaos!), or being forced to shell out ridiculous pts just to ensure my HQ's don't get hosed by said rule... Or else my psychic tables being complete junk, my Mark having no actual effect unless it's on a unit which already has an invuln save, Fearless on top of Fearless bonuses, etc, etc...

I suppose CSM does have some comically stupid randumb effects. It'd be hard for me to agree there's more or worse in that codex than daemons, but its certainly in the running. Point is, all of that shouldn't exist anyways, because Ahriman should be the grand master pimp of casting powers.

 Imposter101 wrote:
I'm liking all these posts telling me what's fun, and that I should be having fun, and how it's fun and it's really fun, and like I should really be aware that's it's fun.

See the thing is, at not point am I having fun. Strange.

All these posts? Which ones? I like it, never said you have to.

If it was that bad I wouldn't play daemons (definitely not Tzeentch), but I do. 40K in general has too much stuff to remember though.


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XT-1984 wrote:
Most opponents don't enjoy it as much as the Daemons player when they have no idea whats going on, especially when you possess their psychic Warlord on turn one.

Since Warhammer worlds tournaments (the only ones I go to) now focus on favourite game votes, good luck getting any votes with Daemons there.

Trying to explain the Rewards and Warp Storm in a noisy hall isn't fun either.

It is on the daemon player to say what they roll and what they get.
How hard is it to say "I have random gear and there is a random effect each shooting phase. I'm going to roll now; here is the book if you want to see the result for yourself". Also how many people don't at least have a vague notion of this? Every army has it's own things and most people have heard of them. Off the top of my head I have a general concept of marker lights, mob rule, IG orders, synapse, the extra buffs DE get each turn, reanimation protocols, C'tan abilities and chapter tactics. I only play daemons and only ever have (I'm actually a fantasy guy) but I know about all those.

Random tables can be good if:

1.) The results are either universally positive or universally negative. Having a 50/50 chance of something bad or something good go on makes it a gamble and takes the tactical choice out of the player's hands, especially if the "baseline" starts at where other armies would be considered "normal". Extra Credits had a good episode on how to balance randomness in this regard but for wargaming I dislike this design philosophy entirely (and prefer all tables either being universally good or universally bad).

This one is the primary problem with the Warp Storm Table, as one bad result can completely shift the game in another player's favour. Think of this as the "random Crits" of tabletop games (for all you Competitive TF2 players).

2.) All random Results should generally be geared towards the same purpose and not just give you a generically "good" result. This is the bigger issue with GW's random tables; they usually give you a good benefit, but the purpose of that benefit can wildly differ. Thousand Sons players will know exactly what I mean when I bring up the Discipline of Change. In the case of Daemons, it should be either Melee Buffs, Ranged Buffs, or Defensive buffs. Within those they can vary, like say defensive buffs either giving you IWND, +1 toughness, +1 wound, +1 to your save, etc. They should also all be roughly equal in terms of buffing that aspect, so EW would be out of place there since everyone would just be fishing for that on their GD (this is sort of why whenever you hear someone wanting Biomancy, they're basically fishing for Iron Arm and nothing else).

Nearly all GW's random tables falls victim to this one, most notably warlord traits. While they are separated into broadly related themes, even within those themes they are different enough that you'd have to completely change up your playstyle just to take advantage of them.

Incidentally, the only unit I can think of that GW actually did right with random tables is, of all things, Chaos Spawns. This is because their tables lack anything truely detrimental to the unit and no one result is better than the other. The armor save one is kinda out of place (it might have been better to replace it with something that enhanced strength or initiative) but otherwise they're all decent. In addition, the base spawn, per point, is actually good at doing what they're suppose to do; escort characters and be fast meatshields and tarpits, so you do not rely on the table for their effectiveness.