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Yaho,

I've resigned myself to being a generally non-competition style player quite some time ago as I don't really have the vicious streak, interest in non-imperial armies or free time to make it work for me. Instead my goal is the 1 point win (for either player) with as many armies and players as possible in the pursuit of increasing the number of 'This Guys' in the hobby. Practically this means I generally get a pickup game by either recommendation or reputation, which works but has one specific drawback.

The problem is 'anti-tailoring'; specifically coming up with enjoyable army lists on the fly against all comers based on my perception of the other player's skill or army power level, frequently having only just met them. To support this i've made quick-reference catalogue of my collection supported by the mathhammer-o-matic(tm) which is effective, but i'd imagine there are even more ways to make it work.

So I ask of you dakka, firstly what methods do you use for intentional self-balancing, and secondly does anyone share this agenda?

I have a standard TAC list written for my armies. I do not tailor for or against any enemy.

If I need to 'self-balance', to prevent anyone being bummed out, I do it in-game by making fluffy decisions instead of tactically correct decisions. That or making my own 'fluffy objectives'.

Example 1. (Fluffy Decisions)
A Commissar ordering a full frontal charge to engage the enemy, instead of going to ground and holding the objective etc.
or
Challenging an enemy HQ with mine instead of sacrificing a sergeant or some other peon.

Example 2. (Fluffy Objectives).
Preserving men instead of using them like chaff. Withdrawing damaged squads instead of sending them forward as cannon fodder.
or
Securing one objective at the cost of the others. The Power Generator means more to my army than a pile of skulls, I'll fortify it with all my squads instead of contesting.

This way I can play a fun, fluffy game and can balance on the fly.

I just come to the store with two lists in mind, one thats just for fun and one I want to play in an upcoming local tournament. I ask my opponent, "do you want to play a casual fun game or competative, fair warning this is a list I want to bring to a local tournament" if there answer is fun game they play against my CSM if they trash talk about how their list is undefeated or just say they want to play competative I plop my crazy daemon lists on the board.

This dosn't always work out, as recently a fairly new player to 40k who only played around 4 games (I didn't know this at the time) when I asked him if he wanted to play casual or competative he began telling me about how his army was undefeated and how it was an amazingly overpowered Tau list he came up with. So I plopped my 30 screamers and my sorcerers on the table and it was an alright game but I felt bad afterwards as the person who played games with the guy prior told him loads of lies about how "vehicles cant overwatch" among other things which I promptly corrected during our game but it was clear to me he was inexperiamced and I was a little too brutal with the 2+ rerollable saves.

He brang something along the lines of 1 riptide, 3 crisis battlesuits, 3 broadsides, 1 hammerhead, a ghostkeel, 1 unit of pathfinders, 1 unit of breachers, 3 units of stealth battlesuits and a tau razershark... come to think of it this seems like a lot, is that over 1350 points?? Anyway, he was a nice guy and had good time, wish I wasnt so rough on him

Reavas wrote:
as the person who played games with the guy prior told him loads of lies about how "vehicles cant overwatch" among other things

Uhm, Vehicles can't actually overwatch, with at least two specific exceptions: Non-Superheavy Walkers are allowed to overwatch, and Longstrike (a Tau special vehicle character) is allowed to overwatch (and indeed, has Supporting Fire and can overwatch many times in a single turn).

Back on topic, I use Battlescribe on a tablet so pretty much have many lists instantly on hand, but will generally have picked a TAC list ahead of time. If I know the person is a newer player, has a limited under-power collection, or simply is playing an army on the downward end of the Codex power-creep see-saw, I will generally weaken that TAC list a bit too.

This is simple.

When choosing weapons ask yourself would be perfect to crush your opponent and just don't bring them


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So if you go against:
- Orks don't field high rate of fire cheap ap weapons.
- Terminators don't field grav spam.
- Flyers don't go for anti air.
etc.

And you can top it off with models you like the look of but no one is willing to field due to low point efficiency. Welcome to 40k on Normal / Hard mode ; )


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How to keep it enjoyable: Make sure that you give yourself some cool options and different units in the game. Spamming a single unit is a duller game compared to having a diverse army with units that have all sorts of different weaknesses and strengths.





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Or you could use the com comp if you don't like to figure it out yourself and minimize the amount of comp points in your amry

http://www.communitycomp.org/

 Quanar wrote:

Reavas wrote:
as the person who played games with the guy prior told him loads of lies about how "vehicles cant overwatch" among other things

Uhm, Vehicles can't actually overwatch, with at least two specific exceptions: Non-Superheavy Walkers are allowed to overwatch, and Longstrike (a Tau special vehicle character) is allowed to overwatch (and indeed, has Supporting Fire and can overwatch many times in a single turn).

Back on topic, I use Battlescribe on a tablet so pretty much have many lists instantly on hand, but will generally have picked a TAC list ahead of time. If I know the person is a newer player, has a limited under-power collection, or simply is playing an army on the downward end of the Codex power-creep see-saw, I will generally weaken that TAC list a bit too.

Oops, and here I was thinking his hammerhead could fire overwatch, guess thats what I get playing a mostly melee army. that being said the guy also told him that his vehicles cant move and shoot (not including move flat out and snap shots he was just told flat out no shooting) as well as being told you can't re-roll overwatch shots with twin-linked weapons.

Write up some basic fluff for your army and follow that. For instance my Guard, the Khantonian 13th, are an elite heavy infantry company, specialising in linebreaker and siege tactics and used to fighting in trench warfare, close quarters environments like towns and cities and breaking enemy fortifications open. To this extent they have a higher proportion of integral pioneer units and their armour support consists primarily of assault guns and close quarters tanks.

When building my lists (baring when im facing certain opponents - then its all out no holds barred) I tend to go for the following choices:

HQ:
Always a CCS and always equipped with Carapace and carrying a standard. A Master of ordinance and a Master of the Fleet are usually included. The Commander always has a PP and a PS and is my Warlord.
0-1 Tank Commander.

Troops:
At least one Veteran section with two Melta's, a Flamer, Carapace, Demolitions and a Power Fist. These are the Engineering sections, and will usually have their own Chimera APC which will have a Dozer Blade and a hull Heavy Flamer
Veterans equipped with Carapace and carrying a single integral special weapon, usually either a Melta, Plasma or Flamer. Some may carry shotguns. There will usually be about three of these units.

Fast Attack:
Armoured Sentinels equipped with Autocannons. One per unit may be upgraded to have a Plasma Cannon or Lascannon. One unit may be upgraded to have either all Heavy Flamers or all Missile Launchers.

Heavy Support:
Thunderer Assault guns. They always have Extra Armour and a Pintle Heavy Stubber.
Leman Russ - usually Exterminator's, Eradicator's, Battle Tank's or Demolishers. Other tanks may be used though, but they may not be as common

Lord of War:
The Stormsword is the most common Lord of War seen with the Khantonian 13th, and is often used to support their advances in close quarters areas. The Banesword is less commonly seen on the front lines, altough it is actually quite common for the 13th to use. however they are usually used for long range fire support jobs and thus are rarely seen. The Banehammer is the other, slightly less common, variant which sees service with the Khantonian 13th. It is usually used as a close fire support piece to support the advance or is sent forwards to suppress enemy units attempting to counter attack or putting up too stiff of a resistance.

As you can see, this is not really the most optimal unit choice for an army, but it works quite well and can make for some fun and fluffy games against like minded opponents.

fluff armies aren't necessary weak armies.

The most nightmarish eldar, necron and SM armies I have ever faced made perfect sense from a fluff perspective.

I do a lot of this when introducing people to the game. For example, my brother really likes CSM so I made him a small army and myself an Ork force that wasn't optimized. So in CC his AC would kill my nob in challenge and the boyz would run. It was still a close game I had a few deffkoptas and like 6 Boyz left and he had like 5 CSM and a helbrute.
It's all about balance especially in those situations, like I wouldn't take a battlewagon full of MegaNobz if all he has is one guy with a PF and a plasma pistol.

My store decides matchups at random based on who shows up. There are 2 players who always bring "tournament" lists, one who owns every army and brings something random each time, the rest of us just run fluffy lists. Any TAC list that can handle a Tau or Eldar giant robot army is also going to be able to handle your typical fluffy IG/Ork/Nid blobs, so I'm forced to tailor against Tau/Eldar bots by default. Otherwise luck of the draw means we could end up with a game that's a waste of everybody's time. I'd love to ask the Tau and Eldar players to tone down their lists but that would require them to buy more models and leave their most expensive ones at home. Seems a bit rude to demand that if you ask me. I just have to accept that they win because GW has decreed that it is their time, and soon it will be someone else's time.

Real News wrote:
.... Otherwise luck of the draw means we could end up with a game that's a waste of everybody's time. I'd love to ask the Tau and Eldar players to tone down their lists but that would require them to buy more models and leave their most expensive ones at home. Seems a bit rude to demand that if you ask me. I just have to accept that they win because GW has decreed that it is their time, and soon it will be someone else's time.

This is it - the bad matchup is a waste of everyone's time, and in some cases limited gaming resources i.e. tables. That the cause of the bad matchup is in turn limited resources, i.e. no reason to invest in a sub-optimal entertainment resource (e.g. the pyrovore) only makes the problem worse. Having recently dabbled in MtG it's really refreshed my perspective on the subject, and hence the original question.

Since a lot of the hobby by nature will involve new-unknown people, or as you say luck of the draw, you wind up with these situations where it's as close to a pre-determined outcome after army list composition, random chance or no. The breakout is of course always going to be legendary, but it will drive beginners, casuals, and 'calm people' away in the mean time.

So it would appear the options presented so far are:

1. Make sub-optimal decisions while playing
2. Cart along multiple *pre-tailored* lists
3. Pre-emptively Impose limitations on your collection

That about right?

1. has its place, especially with beginners/returners and so forth but it is disrespectful and to an extent a waste of time if someone is competent enough to catch on to what you are doing
2. Is possible but it requires a substantial collection, considerable preparation, and very good ability to read army strengths pre-emptively, which is where I am for the most part
3. Can have the unfortunate side effect of making your hobby less fun as you have to make the decision to either prevent yourself from buying something you'd really like, or rarely enjoy what you've bought to the full - speaking from experience

I'd never heard of com comp though, that may be a big help for option 2.