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While I do enjoy the thematic idea of Allies, it seems to have turned into a "gap-filler" for an armies weakness instead.
I think Allies should stay, but should be reigned in a bit. how does this sound:
3 levels of Allies: Battle Bros, Convenience & Come the Apoc

------BBs count as friendly units in all respects, but cannot share transports and ICs can only join units of their Faction. Blessing can be cast on your BB as now
So basically BBs are just like Allies of Conv are now, but can share abilities like WL traits, Powers, etc. This represents their level of familiarity and cooperation with each other,
but helps limit crazy shenanigans (since most abuses of abilities, even psychic powers, rely on IC to join BB squads)

------Convenience: As "Desperate Allies" are now, except "One Eye Open" is changed to the following:
'If a unit is within 12" of an Allie of Convenience at the start the movement phase roll a D6. On a '1', that unit has become distracted by their suspicion and can only
Snap-Fire in the shooting phase and cannot attempt Assault moves of any kind.'

------Come the Apoc: Not allowed to Allie in a Battle-Forged army, i.e. you can do it, but your army becomes Unbound and loses any detachment bonuses (including Formation benefits)

Keep the Allie matrix as it is now, but any "Desperate Allies" are now "Convenience".
The goal here is to allow the current alliances, but give them enough drawbacks that using allies to gain an advantage, or plug an armies weakness, is not a viable tactic in list building.

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So BB becomes how CSM and Daemons are? They are buddies on the table, but don't get too close pal... we are not that good of friends.

That is really an interesting though, with daemons I haven't ever taken a second thought to it. With my Renegades and CSM I also don't really do much of the inter-unit IC shenanigans. It would bring down Space Marines a lot though. I'll have to think about how I would feel about it. It would really feel like older editions though.

I haven't played but 1 or 2 games against any other allies to comment much on them. Those games were very painful, as they player did not remember one eye open, and was not happy to be reminded.

Yeah, my basic approach was to just knock down each Allie by 1 level with some tweaks.

So BBs are more like Conv that can share abilities form a distance,
Conv is more like Desperate, but not totally useless if you fail "OEO",
Desperate is gone entirely since Conv serves that function now,
And CtA is virtually not allowed outside of Unbound

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To me the main problem is that BB were meant for small factions that are supposed to be allied (Militarum Tempestus, Inquisition, Harlequins etc.), but it opened the gates for insane combos from big factions. Just look at the Masque box coming out next week: it features a formation containing two different factions (Eldrad is faction Eldar, and the others are faction Harlequins). Not allowing Eldrad to join a squad of the same formation would be a big nerf.

I would either change the ally matrix, but keeping a "true" BB level, just like the one we have now. Except that BB would restricted to the small factions meant to be allied. For instance, Militarum Tempestus could be BB with IG and SM, but IG and SM would only be allied of convenience (or BBs with no IC joining each other squads). That would remove some nasty combos, while not nerfing the small faction (I do think that an inquisitor should be allowed to join a squad of guardsmen or scions).

Another change could be to limit the number of ICs allowed to join a unit (no more than two IC in a single unit for instance). That would limit the ability to stack every single special rule, or create huge deathstars.

Yeah, I think adding a level between "Battle Brothers" as they stand now and "Allies of Convenience" would make sense, where the units count as friendly, can cast blessings on each other, but cannot embark on transports and ICs cannot join units of that level of alliance. You'd still be able to do things like benefit from Warlord Traits, "All friendly units" bubble effects and "repair/buff friendly units" effects. Enginseers fixing Predators and Techmarines fixing Basilisks is not breaking the game, so there's no real need to nerf that.

Then, as fresus suggests, reserve true Battle Brothers (as it currently stands) for:

Militarum Tempestus, Inquisition, Assassins and Adepta Sororitas with other Armies of the Imperium

Harlequins with Eldar, Dark Eldar and Eldar Corsairs.

Khorne Daemonkin with Chaos Space Marines

However, other Armies of the Imperium would be "lesser battle brothers" of each other, and CWE, DE and EC would be lesser battle brothers of each other.

So essentially I'd never be able to take an Ork Imperial Knight or looted Baneblade again? No thanks!

The problem I see with BB is the IoM ones. They are all BB with each other and they shouldn't be imo. That and most xenos army should have at least one BB. The ones without one should be able to compete with armies with several. And BB should not be the hands down optimal choice with a few exceptions for armies that should really be in the same codex or are nearly that close

jade_angel wrote:
Yeah, I think adding a level between "Battle Brothers" as they stand now and "Allies of Convenience" would make sense, where the units count as friendly, can cast blessings on each other, but cannot embark on transports and ICs cannot join units of that level of alliance. You'd still be able to do things like benefit from Warlord Traits, "All friendly units" bubble effects and "repair/buff friendly units" effects. Enginseers fixing Predators and Techmarines fixing Basilisks is not breaking the game, so there's no real need to nerf that.

Then, as fresus suggests, reserve true Battle Brothers (as it currently stands) for:

Militarum Tempestus, Inquisition, Assassins and Adepta Sororitas with other Armies of the Imperium

Harlequins with Eldar, Dark Eldar and Eldar Corsairs.

Khorne Daemonkin with Chaos Space Marines

However, other Armies of the Imperium would be "lesser battle brothers" of each other, and CWE, DE and EC would be lesser battle brothers of each other.

Actually, you could fix this by making a note for those amies like Tempetus, Ad Mech'Skitarri, etc that when taken as an allie to Imperial armies, they count as that Faction
Likewise for Harlequins when allied to Eldar/DE.
Likewise for KDK, just make them Faction: CSM, especially since Daemonin Instability currently prevents ICs joining BB squads anyway

As it currently stands, Assassins would be no different since they cannot be joined anyway and the draft FAQ says they cannot be deployed in BB transports. The only slight difference would be not being able to embark in transports later.

f4ction wrote:
So essentially I'd never be able to take an Ork Imperial Knight or looted Baneblade again? No thanks!

How would that be any different than how Orks allie now? Orks are currently Desperate Allies with Imperials, meaning 'One Eye Open" rolls have to be taken and if you fail the unit DOES NOTHING for the whole turn. In my proposal Orks would be Allies of Convenience with Imperials and failed 'OEO' rolls still allow you to move and snapfire (which isn't a huge downside for Orks). Another one of my goals with this change is to allow "fluffy" combos like Looted Knights & Baneblades, without it creating as much possibility for competitive abuse.

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Orks are currently Desperate Allies with Imperials,

Orks are Come The Apocalypse allies with the Imperials.

Orks should have a rule that allows them to ally with any enemy vehicle to make "looted" vehicles. This should come with some drawbacks. Like an instability roll. Roll a d6 at the beginning of each of the controlling players phases. On a 1 the looted vehicle can do nothing that phase.

Roll a 1 durring movement? Cant move, 1 during shooting? Cant shoot or run. Etc etc...

Just a thought for how orks could have a looted knight or whatever.

f4ction wrote:

Orks are currently Desperate Allies with Imperials,

Orks are Come The Apocalypse allies with the Imperials.

Well then in this change we make them Allies of Conv, or keep them CtA and you'd have to play Unbound to play a Looted Knight.
Either way could make sense