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Example:

I have 2 Blood Angels detachments.

Baal Strike Force (BA codex) buys a non-dedicated drop-pod.
Archangels Strike Force (Shield of Baal) terminators ride in above drop-pod?

I know it gets hairy with the Blood Angels being "battle brothers" with themselves, but is this subject to the faq rule meaning they can't use it?

The Allies chart just covers interactions between models when they are from different Factions. If they're from the same Faction and are in the same army, the Allies chart is ignored! As such, yes, Blood Angels from two different detachments can still start the game deployed in each other's transports. They are NOT "Battle Brothers" with themselves*.

*this is a common misconception, as it only shows up when you have Blood Angels from two different armies, such as your own force of Blood Angels being allied with a friend's force of Blood Angels.

Except for the weirdness of factions being battlebrothers with themselves in the matrix.

The written rules were just copy-pasted with an explanation that this is how units from different factions treat eachother, then the matrix lists several factions as only battlebrothers with themselves while the choosing your forces rules state that you can take multiple detachments from the same faction.

They changed the way we choose armies and the matrix but left the old verbiage for how this all works.

If you try to apply the verbiage with different detachments of the same faction via the matrix you wind up with all units in the same detachment as battle brothers and no-one can start in a transport. If you try to apply just the written portion then the battle brothers for same faction means nothing outside Armies of the Imperium.

All that from an FAQ answer with no basis in the rules unless the answer was assuming Dedicated Transports(which, by the context of the answer, seems to be the case).

Well for "dedicated" transports the rule was already very clear in the rulebook. I thought the faq was specifically shutting down the Flesh Tearers drop-pod shuttle service - which this is similar to.

I'm not sure there is an official answer to this question.

 Gunzhard wrote:
Well for "dedicated" transports the rule was already very clear in the rulebook. I thought the faq was specifically shutting down the Flesh Tearers drop-pod shuttle service - which this is similar to.

I'm not sure there is an official answer to this question.

Well, are Flesh Tearer's the same faction as Blood Angels? If they are, they can use Blood Angel Drop Pods. If they're not, then they can't use Blood Angel Drop Pods. Battle Brothers can embark upon a Battle Brother's transports during the game, but they can't start the game inside each other's transports. That's what the FAQ so far has stated.

Well I don't really care about Flesh Tearers per se, just making the point about the faq ruling.

But I'm talking definitely the same 'Faction' (Blood Angels for both) but from different books and detachments... can they start/deploy in each other's transport (drop-pod specifically).

I can't find any place where this is addressed, and the closest is the faq... which would make me think, no?

 Gunzhard wrote:
Well I don't really care about Flesh Tearers per se, just making the point about the faq ruling.

But I'm talking definitely the same 'Faction' (Blood Angels for both) but from different books and detachments... can they start/deploy in each other's transport (drop-pod specifically).

I can't find any place where this is addressed, and the closest is the faq... which would make me think, no?

If they're the same Faction, and they're both from the same army, they can start in each other's transports. This is because the rules for using the Allies Matrix has nothing to do with detachments, it just has to do with models from different Factions. Check the rulebook and the section describing how to use the Ally Matrix, and you'll see this spelt out that it applies when you have models in the same army from different Factions. It specifies "army", not "detachment". All detachments in your army are still part of your army. So, if you're using multiple detachments in your army, and they're all from the same Faction, they can embark in each other's transports.

The only time you couldn't embark into a transport from the same Faction is if they're not from the same Army. For example, if you're playing with Blood Angels against Blood Angels, you cannot embark upon your opponent's transports (even though they are a model from the same Faction).

The rules for Allies never mentions detachments as being anything different.

And again Yarium; it is a Copy-Paste of the Text from 6th; the edition where your army could only consist of 2 detachments: the standard that we now know as a CAD, and an Allied.

The text also makes the matrix nonsensical.

The Matrix is not just a pretty little picture like the wrong examples in vehicle fire arcs; it is actual rules. In this case we have conflicting rules.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
And again Yarium; it is a Copy-Paste of the Text from 6th; the edition where your army could only consist of 2 detachments: the standard that we now know as a CAD, and an Allied.

The text also makes the matrix nonsensical.

The Matrix is not just a pretty little picture like the wrong examples in vehicle fire arcs; it is actual rules. In this case we have conflicting rules.

Well, whether or not it's copy-pasta, it's still what the rule is unless a future FAQ says otherwise (as they have already done!). Of course, you and a friend can decide otherwise if people have strong feelings about this.

Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire...

As I just said: the rules are contradictory.

Same faction is battlebrothers but the allies rules only dictate relations between different factions.

Therefore the rules do not function.

Then we have the Q and A:
Q: Can units that are battle brothers embark in each other's transport vehicles during deployment?
A: No.

Now the way that is worded it can only mean Dedicated transports. It is asking if 2 units can swap their transports, transports are units unto themselves.

For the FAQ to say what most people think it says it would read as follows:
Can a unit be deployed inside of a battle brothers transport?

I agree the rules are contradictory. That's why I asked for clarification on their Facebook page when the draft FAQ that disallowed units from starting in a Battle Brother's transport dropped. Hopefully we'll see it clarified in the final FAQ.

Oh boy, based on that faq I'm having doubts.

Hey Ghaz can you ask my question please? I don't have Facebook.

They just put up the Grey Knights FAQ which actually does have a better wording on this situation.

The question is regarding the nemesis strike force rites of teleportation rule and if they benefit from the reserves when riding in an allied drop pod. The answer is that units may not begin the game in allied transports.

So yes; they really are meaning any allied transports, not just DTs(and this is one of the few answers that they stuck with in this round of FAQs). I guess they really are not intending for loaner drop pods to any force.

Well ok can you just take 2 detachments without one being an "allied" detachment? ...or 2 formations without a detachment? ...this gak has gotten so confusing!

Specifically can I have "Baal Strike Force" detachment and an "Archangels Strike Force" detachment? ...I know one must be the primary but does that automatically make the other an "allied detachment?

You cant ally with yourself.
its simply just the same army with different two or five different detachments.

Like my raven wing strike force, my lions blade strike force, my scout cad, are all formations that consist of "successor chapter dark angels" they are not allied, they are not battle brothers they are the same chapter, in some cases parts of the same company in different formations.

My lions blade consists of the full 5th company of the chapter and has 2 Ravenwing attack squadrons from 2nd company attached to it.

My ravenwing strike force is a detachment, made up of guys from the 2nd company.

The lions blade formation has a detachment of a hammer of caliban with a land raider redeemer crewed by a tech marine with his servitors, there is still room for 6 models (or 7 if the servoharness dont count as 2) . i played a game with azrael, ezekiel, 2 librarians, 1 chaplain all from assorted detachments and formations inside the redeemer.

Bottom line, if its the same chapter its the same army reguardless of all the other details.

GW's ruling is obviously not what was intended, as all of the Stormraven formations cannot start with passengers, which defeats the purpose behind transport formations.

The only reason behind their ruling has to be an attempt at balancing, even if the attempt goes against their written rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW's ruling is obviously not what was intended, as all of the Stormraven formations cannot start with passengers, which defeats the purpose behind transport formations.

The only reason behind their ruling has to be an attempt at balancing, even if the attempt goes against their written rules.

SJ

More specifically, it is adding an exception to the written rule that does not currently exist anywhere BUT the Draft FAQs.

The Storm Raven Formations carrying units is fine, provided they are from the same codex as the units they are carrying. Its when they are from different codices that is when the drunken monkeys take over.

If you cannot ally with yourself, then why are Tau Battle Brothers with Tau?

ssisal wrote:You cant ally with yourself.
its simply just the same army with different two or five different detachments.

Kommissar Kel wrote:If you cannot ally with yourself, then why are Tau Battle Brothers with Tau?

The confusion here is that "you can't ally with yourself" means "you cannot take an Allied Detachment with the same Faction as your Primary Detachment" AND that an "Allied Detachment" is a very SPECIFIC kind of detachment. Specifically, it's at least 1 HQ and 1 Troop choice, with another 0-1 of every other Battlefield Role, except Troops, which are 1-3, and Lords of War, which are 0.

Aside from that, through game verbiage, no other detachment is an "allied detachment" - they're just other detachments, possibly made up of other Factions. IF they're made from other Factions, the interactions between models that have different Factions are governed by the Allies Matrix, making them "allies" of each other.



Gunzhard; your Baal Strike Force and Archangels Strike Force are not allied detachments, they're just additional "detachments", and that's it. Since they're from the same Faction, and are present in the same army, they can indeed use each other's transports. They are NOT allies, since the Allies Matrix is not being used to determine the interactions between them.

Kommissar Kel, I know you've been around here long enough to know the answer to this . They're Battle Brothers with each other so that if you play a game with another player as allies, your two units aren't worried about stabbing each other in the back and keeping one eye open. In this case, you're the same Faction, yes, but you're from a different Army. This means the Allies Matrix applies. This also means you can't start the game embarked in each other's transports.

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GW's ruling is obviously not what was intended, as all of the Stormraven formations cannot start with passengers, which defeats the purpose behind transport formations.

The only reason behind their ruling has to be an attempt at balancing, even if the attempt goes against their written rules.

SJ

More specifically, it is adding an exception to the written rule that does not currently exist anywhere BUT the Draft FAQs.

The Storm Raven Formations carrying units is fine, provided they are from the same codex as the units they are carrying. Its when they are from different codices that is when the drunken monkeys take over.

Factions are Battle Brothers with themselves. Per the BRB, Battle Brothers can be deployed in each other's non-dedicted transports. The GW ruling needs clarification as it specifically prohibits Battle Brothers from deploying in each other's transports. Without an errata or further clarification, different detachments of the same faction are still Battle Brothers and therefore cannot deploy in each other's transports. That is the reason why their ruling breaks their own rules and is causing issues.

SJ

WHat permission are you using to use the Allies matrix?

You are not dealing with units from different factions, so which rule are you using to allow you to reference the chart?

Page and graph.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
WHat permission are you using to use the Allies matrix?

You are not dealing with units from different factions, so which rule are you using to allow you to reference the chart?

Page and graph.

I gotta say, this is probably the answer. The Allies matrix specifically states it is used when dealing with a different FACTION, not DETACHMENT.
Therefore, this is an non-issue when using the same faction

-

So, Yarium; are you saying that the Allies rules do not come into play when you are using CADs from 2 different factions and not using the Allied Detachment?

I ask this because your quote from Ssisal does not indicat "Allied Detachments" at all, he simply makes reference of 2-5 detachments.


Nos; So you are saying the Matrix is only relevant when you have 2 or more detachments from multiple different Factions, but then at that point all same-faction units become Battle Brothers and no-one can start the game in a transport. Is that correct?

My point is none of the written rules work with the matrix and the FAQ rule-change-from-no-where.

But then you only use the matrix to tell you how the units from the detachments of *different* factions act with one another. The detachments of same factions do not suddenly become battle brother status with each other, because they're still the same faction, so you don't even look at the allies matrix when determining things between them.

So if the matrix only accounts for different factions, then why have all factions bb with themselves?

And, no Yarium, it is not for team play; the allies rules and matrix are both discussing how the units in the same army interact.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So, Yarium; are you saying that the Allies rules do not come into play when you are using CADs from 2 different factions and not using the Allied Detachment?

I ask this because your quote from Ssisal does not indicat "Allied Detachments" at all, he simply makes reference of 2-5 detachments.


Nos; So you are saying the Matrix is only relevant when you have 2 or more detachments from multiple different Factions, but then at that point all same-faction units become Battle Brothers and no-one can start the game in a transport. Is that correct?

My point is none of the written rules work with the matrix and the FAQ rule-change-from-no-where.

I think he's saying that "Detachments" are entirely irrelevant to fielding Allies (forces of different 'factions') and the rules that govern fielding Allies... so you could have 2 CADs (of different factions) or a CAD and an Allied-detachment... it doesn't matter. But if each has a different faction then you refer to the Matrix to learn how they 'interact' with each other.

Here is a quote from the rulebook I found: "Irrespective of the method you use to choose your army, this section tells you how models from different Factions fight alongside each other." ..."The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So if the matrix only accounts for different factions, then why have all factions bb with themselves?

If you're not using it when they're the same faction, you never look at it to see they're bb anyway. GW could just have easily blacked out those boxes, or put a big X in each one, and I honestly believe if that were the case, some people would say "That means they can't ally with themselves, you can only have detachment from a given faction." I see your point, but as others have pointed out before in other threads, they made a matrix, and something had to go in those boxes.

BossJakadakk wrote:
If you're not using it when they're the same faction, you never look at it to see they're bb anyway. GW could just have easily blacked out those boxes...

Which is how it was in the previous edition, so why did they change it?

 Ghaz wrote:

BossJakadakk wrote:
If you're not using it when they're the same faction, you never look at it to see they're bb anyway. GW could just have easily blacked out those boxes...

Which is how it was in the previous edition, so why did they change it?

Idk, does it matter? You still disregard it if you're looking at how units of the same faction interact. In both editions, it means nothing at all. I get that it's weird, but there doesn't have to be meaning for it. The paragraph above still says you're using the matrix just when determining how units from different factions interact. It could say BA to BA is happy fluffy bunnies but you'll never need to know what happy fluffy bunnies means.