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2016/08/10 16:45:49
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
Instead of drawing a number of cards each turn (which slows down the game), what if each player draws about a dozen cards at the start of the game?
This would allow each player to build longer strategies to get these objectives by the end of them game. It should also speed up the game a bit. I don't know about you guys, but I always have my next turn planned out by the time my opponent finished their current turn. But when I draw a certain card and have to alter that plan on the spot, now I am taking time at the beginning of each turn "thinking' instead of "doing'.
By drawing all your Maelstrom cards pre-game you can also limit the "luck" factor a bit. You could even be allowed to discard 1 card per turn in order to draw another, just in case you drew a card that is difficult or impossible to achieve. This could be done voluntarily, or you could keep all the cards you drew if you like them.
The big question is: How many cards would you draw? I was thinking 12 is a good number, since that should be enough to get at least 5-7 cards that you can achieve and the other 5-7 that you cannot can be swapped out as the game goes by.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/10 16:48:04
Not a bad idea - I am no lover of the randomness of maelstrom. This might be worth a shot this weekend if I can get the group to agree on it. On the number of cards - 12 to 15 seems about right.
The more I think about it though - maelstrom is just a lost cause. I miss old school table quarters battles. The game was never over till the last turn and you never had any doubt who the victor really should have been.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2016/08/10 17:51:21
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
Before the game starts, both players choose which 12 tactical objective cards they are going to have for the game, with no more than 2 examples of any one card in the hand.
The board and objective markers are set up the same as currently before rolling to see which deployment method to use, who picks which side and who goes first.
Cards are never hidden, both players have the right to view their opponents cards at any point before or during the game and no extra cards are drawn during the game.
No more than 15 victory points can be scored during the game from objective cards, to mitigate against someone having a large number of easily scored D3/D6 cards.
Can choose/ignore/randomly roll for a secondary objective from Eternal War like Kill Points, kill Heavy Supports etc.
Tertiary objectives like Slay the Warlord remain, might be interesting to swap them out for other objectives like First Strike.
Tabling is worth 5VP.
Might require some changes to a few faction specific cards to work with this but it would reduce a lot of the randomness of Maelstrom and since you both players know what their opponent needs to do to score tactics can be more important as you're trying to score your own objectives whilst denying your opponent their's.
2016/08/10 18:02:51
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2016/08/10 18:17:42
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
Before the game starts, both players choose which 12 tactical objective cards they are going to have for the game, with no more than 2 examples of any one card in the hand.
The board and objective markers are set up the same as currently before rolling to see which deployment method to use, who picks which side and who goes first.
Cards are never hidden, both players have the right to view their opponents cards at any point before or during the game and no extra cards are drawn during the game.
No more than 15 victory points can be scored during the game from objective cards, to mitigate against someone having a large number of easily scored D3/D6 cards.
Can choose/ignore/randomly roll for a secondary objective from Eternal War like Kill Points, kill Heavy Supports etc.
Tertiary objectives like Slay the Warlord remain, might be interesting to swap them out for other objectives like First Strike.
Tabling is worth 5VP.
Might require some changes to a few faction specific cards to work with this but it would reduce a lot of the randomness of Maelstrom and since you both players know what their opponent needs to do to score tactics can be more important as you're trying to score your own objectives whilst denying your opponent their's.
Not bad. A bit over complicated for my taste, but not bad.
Before the game starts, both players choose which 12 tactical objective cards they are going to have for the game, with no more than 2 examples of any one card in the hand.
The board and objective markers are set up the same as currently before rolling to see which deployment method to use, who picks which side and who goes first.
Cards are never hidden, both players have the right to view their opponents cards at any point before or during the game and no extra cards are drawn during the game.
No more than 15 victory points can be scored during the game from objective cards, to mitigate against someone having a large number of easily scored D3/D6 cards.
Can choose/ignore/randomly roll for a secondary objective from Eternal War like Kill Points, kill Heavy Supports etc.
Tertiary objectives like Slay the Warlord remain, might be interesting to swap them out for other objectives like First Strike.
Tabling is worth 5VP.
Might require some changes to a few faction specific cards to work with this but it would reduce a lot of the randomness of Maelstrom and since you both players know what their opponent needs to do to score tactics can be more important as you're trying to score your own objectives whilst denying your opponent their's.
Not bad. A bit over complicated for my taste, but not bad.
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Whats complicated about it? Pick your cards and play the game, throwing in secondary and tertiary objectives as needed/wanted to avoid every game being identicle.
2016/08/10 22:22:15
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
Before the game starts, both players choose which 12 tactical objective cards they are going to have for the game, with no more than 2 examples of any one card in the hand.
The board and objective markers are set up the same as currently before rolling to see which deployment method to use, who picks which side and who goes first.
Cards are never hidden, both players have the right to view their opponents cards at any point before or during the game and no extra cards are drawn during the game.
No more than 15 victory points can be scored during the game from objective cards, to mitigate against someone having a large number of easily scored D3/D6 cards.
Can choose/ignore/randomly roll for a secondary objective from Eternal War like Kill Points, kill Heavy Supports etc.
Tertiary objectives like Slay the Warlord remain, might be interesting to swap them out for other objectives like First Strike.
Tabling is worth 5VP.
Might require some changes to a few faction specific cards to work with this but it would reduce a lot of the randomness of Maelstrom and since you both players know what their opponent needs to do to score tactics can be more important as you're trying to score your own objectives whilst denying your opponent their's.
Not bad. A bit over complicated for my taste, but not bad.
-
Whats complicated about it? Pick your cards and play the game, throwing in secondary and tertiary objectives as needed/wanted to avoid every game being identicle.
It just has several points that make it more than "pick your cards and play". Draw your cards and play keeps the "random" element without need to prevent players from picking the cards that suit them.
As far as I'm concerned, Slay the WL, First Blood & line breaker should be assumed in every mission.
pm713 wrote: I don't see why tabling isn't an automatic win. How does the enemy win if they all die?
Sort of makes sense from a narrative point of view. If your army is on a suicide mission to take out an important enemy leader, for instance, then even the loss of your entire force might not be a "loss" provided the objective was important enough. For instance, a chapter might spend 50 marines on a battle that results in the death of a daemon prince. Losing 50 marines is a high cost, but the loss of the daemon prince might cause the chaos threat to begin infighting or to fall apart completely in the absence of the daemonic presence holding it together.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2016/08/10 23:31:38
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
pm713 wrote: I don't see why tabling isn't an automatic win. How does the enemy win if they all die?
Sort of makes sense from a narrative point of view. If your army is on a suicide mission to take out an important enemy leader, for instance, then even the loss of your entire force might not be a "loss" provided the objective was important enough. For instance, a chapter might spend 50 marines on a battle that results in the death of a daemon prince. Losing 50 marines is a high cost, but the loss of the daemon prince might cause the chaos threat to begin infighting or to fall apart completely in the absence of the daemonic presence holding it together.
Seems like there are more times it doesn't make sense than it does.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2016/08/11 00:06:24
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
From a fluff perspective, not every 'loss' is actually a loss. There are such things as 'strategic failures' and the like.
I also feel tabling is a lazy way to win. If i was scoring all kinds of objectives, playing smart despite my army being less powerful (Like when I played Orks), my opponent just steam rolls me in the mean time...if I have 10 points and he has 3, I should still claim victory. My Orks looted all his gak and killed all kinds of important targets. Just because he wiped my army doesn't mean, fluff wise, he actually won.
pm713 wrote: I don't see why tabling isn't an automatic win. How does the enemy win if they all die?
Sort of makes sense from a narrative point of view. If your army is on a suicide mission to take out an important enemy leader, for instance, then even the loss of your entire force might not be a "loss" provided the objective was important enough. For instance, a chapter might spend 50 marines on a battle that results in the death of a daemon prince. Losing 50 marines is a high cost, but the loss of the daemon prince might cause the chaos threat to begin infighting or to fall apart completely in the absence of the daemonic presence holding it together.
Seems like there are more times it doesn't make sense than it does.
Totally depends on a person's mind set. I mean, if Army A deals more damage to important locations/steals more intel/captures ammo caches and the like before being wiped out, did they really lose if all those resources were gained? Even if Army B is mostly in tact, is failing to protect what they were deployed to protect mean they still win?
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/08/11 00:23:42
2016/08/11 00:36:48
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Melevolence wrote: From a fluff perspective, not every 'loss' is actually a loss. There are such things as 'strategic failures' and the like.
If you table an IG army but lose most of your Grey Knights in the process, it is also not a victory for you, it is a disaster on an absolutely unprecedented scale that your entire chapter will struggle to recover from.
IG really get the strategic victory in fluff terms the moment you deploy your armies, unless they face Orks/Nids.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/11 00:37:31
Melevolence wrote: From a fluff perspective, not every 'loss' is actually a loss. There are such things as 'strategic failures' and the like.
If you table an IG army but lose most of your Grey Knights in the process, it is also not a victory for you, it is a disaster on an absolutely unprecedented scale that your entire chapter will struggle to recover from.
IG really get the strategic victory in fluff terms the moment you deploy your armies, unless they face Orks/Nids.
One would assume if you were putting those precious metal boots planetside, the risk/payoff was worth taking. If losing those GK hurts that bad, maybe the general shouldn't have put that kind of resource there and instead put more leather boots on the ground instead
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/08/11 01:16:03
2016/08/11 11:24:33
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
Before the game starts, both players choose which 12 tactical objective cards they are going to have for the game, with no more than 2 examples of any one card in the hand.
The board and objective markers are set up the same as currently before rolling to see which deployment method to use, who picks which side and who goes first.
Cards are never hidden, both players have the right to view their opponents cards at any point before or during the game and no extra cards are drawn during the game.
No more than 15 victory points can be scored during the game from objective cards, to mitigate against someone having a large number of easily scored D3/D6 cards.
Can choose/ignore/randomly roll for a secondary objective from Eternal War like Kill Points, kill Heavy Supports etc.
Tertiary objectives like Slay the Warlord remain, might be interesting to swap them out for other objectives like First Strike.
Tabling is worth 5VP.
Might require some changes to a few faction specific cards to work with this but it would reduce a lot of the randomness of Maelstrom and since you both players know what their opponent needs to do to score tactics can be more important as you're trying to score your own objectives whilst denying your opponent their's.
Not bad. A bit over complicated for my taste, but not bad.
-
Whats complicated about it? Pick your cards and play the game, throwing in secondary and tertiary objectives as needed/wanted to avoid every game being identicle.
It just has several points that make it more than "pick your cards and play". Draw your cards and play keeps the "random" element without need to prevent players from picking the cards that suit them.
As far as I'm concerned, Slay the WL, First Blood & line breaker should be assumed in every mission.
Why should there be a random element though? And I see nothing wrong with picking cards to suit you, thats why I included the part about your opponent getting to see them, they know what you're trying to do from the start and can try and stop you. There's nothing more frustrating than drawing cards that are really difficult for your army to get.
I disagree with you on the tertiary's, I find things like First Strike/Last Strike etc to be an interesting twist and a few more options is not a bad thing. If you want to keep to Warlord, Line Braker and First Blood then there's nothing stopping you either way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: I don't see why tabling isn't an automatic win. How does the enemy win if they all die?
To reply to your and Xenomancers question on this, it's because it would be more useful to tournements where the points racked up in game count towards your overall score.
To be honest though, if you've tabled your opponent I'd say that was a pretty obvious victory, but it's a way of making sure the points you've scored in game still matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/11 11:28:41
2016/08/11 11:44:44
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
From a fluff perspective, not every 'loss' is actually a loss. There are such things as 'strategic failures' and the like.
I also feel tabling is a lazy way to win. If i was scoring all kinds of objectives, playing smart despite my army being less powerful (Like when I played Orks), my opponent just steam rolls me in the mean time...if I have 10 points and he has 3, I should still claim victory. My Orks looted all his gak and killed all kinds of important targets. Just because he wiped my army doesn't mean, fluff wise, he actually won.
pm713 wrote: I don't see why tabling isn't an automatic win. How does the enemy win if they all die?
Sort of makes sense from a narrative point of view. If your army is on a suicide mission to take out an important enemy leader, for instance, then even the loss of your entire force might not be a "loss" provided the objective was important enough. For instance, a chapter might spend 50 marines on a battle that results in the death of a daemon prince. Losing 50 marines is a high cost, but the loss of the daemon prince might cause the chaos threat to begin infighting or to fall apart completely in the absence of the daemonic presence holding it together.
Seems like there are more times it doesn't make sense than it does.
Totally depends on a person's mind set. I mean, if Army A deals more damage to important locations/steals more intel/captures ammo caches and the like before being wiped out, did they really lose if all those resources were gained? Even if Army B is mostly in tact, is failing to protect what they were deployed to protect mean they still win?
There's a point where winning by objectives becomes impossible for no other reasons other than dumb luck with d3's or drawing poor cards you can't achieve. Honestly if you like winning/losing for these reasons - you don't need to change anything about maelstrom. It's already great at randomly deciding the winner for moving units onto poker-chips for 1 turn. For myself - I find objective play boring. My real objectives are tactical ones - like destroying my opponents army/HQ/. The only reason we have objectives in the first place is to give armies a reason to move out of their deployment zone. At least if I knew my cards before I deployed my troops - I could consider the two options and figure the one I had the best chance with.
Before the game starts, both players choose which 12 tactical objective cards they are going to have for the game, with no more than 2 examples of any one card in the hand.
The board and objective markers are set up the same as currently before rolling to see which deployment method to use, who picks which side and who goes first.
Cards are never hidden, both players have the right to view their opponents cards at any point before or during the game and no extra cards are drawn during the game.
No more than 15 victory points can be scored during the game from objective cards, to mitigate against someone having a large number of easily scored D3/D6 cards.
Can choose/ignore/randomly roll for a secondary objective from Eternal War like Kill Points, kill Heavy Supports etc.
Tertiary objectives like Slay the Warlord remain, might be interesting to swap them out for other objectives like First Strike.
Tabling is worth 5VP.
Might require some changes to a few faction specific cards to work with this but it would reduce a lot of the randomness of Maelstrom and since you both players know what their opponent needs to do to score tactics can be more important as you're trying to score your own objectives whilst denying your opponent their's.
Not bad. A bit over complicated for my taste, but not bad.
-
Whats complicated about it? Pick your cards and play the game, throwing in secondary and tertiary objectives as needed/wanted to avoid every game being identicle.
It just has several points that make it more than "pick your cards and play". Draw your cards and play keeps the "random" element without need to prevent players from picking the cards that suit them.
As far as I'm concerned, Slay the WL, First Blood & line breaker should be assumed in every mission.
Why should there be a random element though? And I see nothing wrong with picking cards to suit you, thats why I included the part about your opponent getting to see them, they know what you're trying to do from the start and can try and stop you. There's nothing more frustrating than drawing cards that are really difficult for your army to get.
I disagree with you on the tertiary's, I find things like First Strike/Last Strike etc to be an interesting twist and a few more options is not a bad thing. If you want to keep to Warlord, Line Braker and First Blood then there's nothing stopping you either way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote: I don't see why tabling isn't an automatic win. How does the enemy win if they all die?
To reply to your and Xenomancers question on this, it's because it would be more useful to tournements where the points racked up in game count towards your overall score.
To be honest though, if you've tabled your opponent I'd say that was a pretty obvious victory, but it's a way of making sure the points you've scored in game still matter.
When I run tournaments - a tabling results in a perfect score. The tabled army still gets their objective points they scored though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/11 11:47:33
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2016/08/11 14:27:50
Subject: Drawing all Malestrom cards before the game begins
Give the mission a try and let us know how it went!
For number of cards drawn, I think we can do better than just putting it to a basic number.
Sometimes the cards just go more one way for a player than the other, so drawing all the cards at once can still result in a "random-win" scenario. The only difference here is that the other player KNOWS they're in an uphill fight, rather than depressingly see turn after turn of easy objectives go to their opponent while they keep struggling.
How about something like "after choosing your deployment zone, but before deploying any models, draw 11 Maelstrom Cards, then discard 4 of them?". This leaves you with 7 cards of your choice. In this way, players get to plan out their game a little bit more, and help reduce randomness a bit more.
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
