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In a recent game, one of my Chimeras suffered a Weapon Destroyed result, and I took its lasgun arrays into account (counting as two weapons, one on each side) when making my opponent roll for which weapon got destroyed. But now, looking at the data sheet, I have my doubts: I see the lasgun arrays are listed among the Chimera's special rules, not its wargear. Would that mean they don't really "count" when it comes to the Weapon Destroyed result?

Thanks a lot.

I'd say they are weapons.

But they aren't weapons.

Is a Wave Serpent's dispersed shield subject to weapon destroyed just because it has a shooting profile?

Lasgun Arrays are not listed as wargear because they are a special ability. They cannot be destroyed.

I'd say the wave serpent shield should be subject to a weapon destroyed.

I second this. My Soulgrinder can apparently be shot in the face hard enough that he can't puke anymore but a shimmery gem shield on a wave serpent is utterly invincible?

The lasgun arrays aren't supposed to be built into the chimera - fluff has it that they are the guns of the squad inside poking out.

Essentially a rather odd form of fire points.

Food for thought...

"Lasgun Arrays: A Chimera has two separate arrays of three lasguns – one array located above each side of its hull. Up to six models in the embarked unit (a maximum of three per array) may fire one lasgun each from these lasgun arrays, provided those models are not using the Chimera’s Fire Points this turn. To represent the unusual nature of these weapons..."

The special rule itself refers to them as weapons.

As for the Serpent Shield, it can be used as a weapon once per game. That's not to say that it's a weapon when being shot at.

So, it is 2, 6 or 0 weapons....

 Selym wrote:
So, it is 2, 6 or 0 weapons....

The rule continues with, "...use the Chimera’s Ballistic Skill for these shots – the lasgun arrays can shoot at this Ballistic Skill regardless of how far the Chimera has moved."

I would play it they count as two weapons.

It may be that they were to represent the embarked unit's lasguns poking out in the past, but that seems less clear now. It seems to me the rule is suggesting the lasguns are always there, but can only be fired by embarked passengers, making them strictly a part of the vehicle's weaponry. This would explain the special rule to some extent, to differentiate the lasgun arrays from the vehicle's other weaponry, which it may ordinarily always fire.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Selym wrote:
So, it is 2, 6 or 0 weapons....

The rule continues with, "...use the Chimera’s Ballistic Skill for these shots – the lasgun arrays can shoot at this Ballistic Skill regardless of how far the Chimera has moved."

I would play it they count as two weapons.

It may be that they were to represent the embarked unit's lasguns poking out in the past, but that seems less clear now. It seems to me the rule is suggesting the lasguns are always there, but can only be fired by embarked passengers, making them strictly a part of the vehicle's weaponry. This would explain the special rule to some extent, to differentiate the lasgun arrays from the vehicle's other weaponry, which it may ordinarily always fire.

it really doesn't help the case of lasguns poking out that the guns in question are a different make/model to the cadian pattern @.@

 Zaku212 wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Selym wrote:
So, it is 2, 6 or 0 weapons....

The rule continues with, "...use the Chimera’s Ballistic Skill for these shots – the lasgun arrays can shoot at this Ballistic Skill regardless of how far the Chimera has moved."

I would play it they count as two weapons.

It may be that they were to represent the embarked unit's lasguns poking out in the past, but that seems less clear now. It seems to me the rule is suggesting the lasguns are always there, but can only be fired by embarked passengers, making them strictly a part of the vehicle's weaponry. This would explain the special rule to some extent, to differentiate the lasgun arrays from the vehicle's other weaponry, which it may ordinarily always fire.

it really doesn't help the case of lasguns poking out that the guns in question are a different make/model to the cadian pattern @.@

Indeed. Also to take into account, how could they be the occupants' lasguns when any unit can use them? Including units that don't have lasguns such as vets armed with shotguns.

I would say that each array counts as a weapon, but that's just HIWPI.

Fluffwise I'm fairly certain the Chimera's lasgun arrays are mounted on the vehicle itself. Regardless, that doesn't make them weapons. They are a special rule of the vehicle, not a weapon with special rules. My guess is that they there made a special rule and not a weapon so as to not give the Chimera's other weapons too much resistance to Weapon Destroyed, but it's GW so who really knows?

It's all well and good to put forth opinions on how it "should" be, but despite how unusual this case is, the rules are clear: they are not subject to Weapon Destroyed because they are not counted as weapons. Special rules aren't a candidate for Weapon Destroyed.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

It's all well and good to put forth opinions on how it "should" be, but despite how unusual this case is, the rules are clear: they are not subject to Weapon Destroyed because they are not counted as weapons. Special rules aren't a candidate for Weapon Destroyed.

Yep, it'd be like using weapon destroyed on a searchlight or smoke launchers. It doesn't make sense at all in terms of irl etc but it's abstraction and the rule itself is a special rule rather than under a weapon listing.

To further compound that would they not have a listing in the end page roundup at the back of the book rather than just their little explanation on the chimera page otherwise?

The chimera is quite an odd veichle. Currently one off two veichles with the "Amphibious" special rule (quite common in 2nd ed I think, the land raider used to be amphibious) and the only veichle with lasgun arrays. I'm not a 100% sure but IIRC in 5th ed the lasgun arrays where not used at all, the chimera was instead treated as having 5 fire points. It's been stated before that the lasgun arrays where one weapon but in the current codex it's clearly stated that there's two. They are not treated as weapons rules wise and never have been. Frankly I think they should be and should be considered viable for weapon destroyed results but the way I have to interpret the rules they are clearly not.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's all well and good to put forth opinions on how it "should" be, but despite how unusual this case is, the rules are clear: they are not subject to Weapon Destroyed because they are not counted as weapons. Special rules aren't a candidate for Weapon Destroyed.

And yet the special rule in question explicitly describes them as weapons the vehicle has.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's all well and good to put forth opinions on how it "should" be, but despite how unusual this case is, the rules are clear: they are not subject to Weapon Destroyed because they are not counted as weapons. Special rules aren't a candidate for Weapon Destroyed.

And yet the special rule in question explicitly describes them as weapons the vehicle has.

and yet as a weapon it doesn't have it's own profile. and on the chimera page of the book itself it's listed only as a special rule and not as war-gear.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's all well and good to put forth opinions on how it "should" be, but despite how unusual this case is, the rules are clear: they are not subject to Weapon Destroyed because they are not counted as weapons. Special rules aren't a candidate for Weapon Destroyed.

And yet the special rule in question explicitly describes them as weapons the vehicle has.

Which also mentions 'their unusual nature' in the very same breath, which is easily enough to explain why they are treated differently.

 Zaku212 wrote:
and yet as a weapon it doesn't have it's own profile. and on the chimera page of the book itself it's listed only as a special rule and not as war-gear.

Those are what you would expect from ordinary weapons, following the ordinary, main rules. Special rules are defined as breaking those rules. If a special rule calls a lasgun array a weapon the vehicle has then by definition we're required to accept it as a weapon the vehicle has, are we not?

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Zaku212 wrote:
and yet as a weapon it doesn't have it's own profile. and on the chimera page of the book itself it's listed only as a special rule and not as war-gear.

Those are what you would expect from ordinary weapons, following the ordinary, main rules. Special rules are defined as breaking those rules. If a special rule calls a lasgun array a weapon the vehicle has then by definition we're required to accept it as a weapon the vehicle has, are we not?

The rule doesn't at any point refer to the array as a weapon. It refers to the chimera's other weaponry in order to state that the array can shoot at other targets than that shot at by the chimmy itself.

 Zaku212 wrote:
The rule doesn't at any point refer to the array as a weapon. It refers to the chimera's other weaponry in order to state that the array can shoot at other targets than that shot at by the chimmy itself.

So when it speaks of representing "the unusual nature of these weapons" it doesn't mean weapons?

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Zaku212 wrote:
The rule doesn't at any point refer to the array as a weapon. It refers to the chimera's other weaponry in order to state that the array can shoot at other targets than that shot at by the chimmy itself.

So when it speaks of representing "the unusual nature of these weapons" it doesn't mean weapons?

Doh, yep you are correct! Point conceded m8

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Zaku212 wrote:
The rule doesn't at any point refer to the array as a weapon. It refers to the chimera's other weaponry in order to state that the array can shoot at other targets than that shot at by the chimmy itself.

So when it speaks of representing "the unusual nature of these weapons" it doesn't mean weapons?

In terms of the rules representation of weapons? Nope.

 Ignatius wrote:
In terms of the rules representation of weapons? Nope.

You are measuring "the rules representation of weapons" by the main rules. Special rules explicitly tell us they break or bend those main rules.

If you disagree that a special rule saying it's a weapon the Chimera has makes it a weapon the Chimera has, please explain how that's the case... with reference to the rules.

 Ignatius wrote:

In terms of the rules representation of weapons? Nope.

I think you're creating a layer of distinction here that simply doesn't exist in the rules.

The litmus test for whether or not something is a weapon is, quite simply: 'Is it a weapon?'


The lasgun arrays are made up of lasguns, which are weapons, and are referred to in their rules as weapons. The simple answer therefore is that the arrays are weapons. The less simple answer is that the array itself isn't a weapon, but each of the lasguns that it is comprised of most certainly are.


So the only actual question would be: 'Does a Lasgun Array count as one or three weapons?'

My only question is whether or not the lasguns in the lasgun array are the vehicle's lasguns or the occupant's lasguns poking out of holes without them being actual fire points.

They are the vehicles weapons.

A Space Marine Tactical Squad in a Chimera can still use the arrays.

Similarly, and in-codex units that can take a Chimera as a DT, Ogryns and Militarum Tempestus squads can use the arrays.

None of yhe units use lasguns, nor posses them.

For the question "How many weapons does this count as?" I would say each one is a single weapon, with the vehicle having a total of 2. The reason I say this the special rules states 2 separate arrays of lasguns. Also it is similar to hurricane pattern bolters. LRC's have 2 of those and each one is 3 TL-bolters. When you destroy a weapon you destroy the whole sponson of bolters not just a single TL-bolter.

Exactly, my thoughts.