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So currently i've heard people love reavers but at the moment they seem like a one trick pony. Sure they have shooting but normally you'll get shot at by the time you get close enough and cluster caltrops are the only viable close combat upgrade. They're not really good for shooting and then moving into cover and only have blasters and heat lances. What i would like is more weapons options for both close combat and ranged combat and possibly even an invulnerable save of 4+ once close combat is reached (kinda like wyches). I understand the points cost would go up tremendously and i'm not even asking for a special weapon per bike. What i would like to see though is haywire blasters, dark lances, splinter cannons and most of all disintegrators. I mean imagine the fire output of a bunch of reavers with disintegrators and once they shoot they can jump back behind cover. I understand reavers might be more assault oriented than other jetbikes esp. as far as weapons go but with relentless it's kinda of a waste not to give them heavier weapons with long range. It'd be powerful but seeing as we have no access to psychic powers like invisibility it's not too big a deal.

As far as close combat goes maybe make grav talons more desirable. Perhaps add some brand new interesting close combat options that do more than 'hammer of wrath' or keep it and make one ignore armor and another roll 2d6 versus vehicles and similar. Perhaps have one close combat option improve the damage output of the rider and another that does straight up poisoned damage but lots of it and yet another that debuffs an enemy in many ways including leadership.

These are just suggestions but i believe it has more potential than what it currently is. You have a very fast eldar jetbike unit but it has 5+ armor and toughness 4. I understand people seem to like these things and they have pretty models but they very much need more variety i think. I don't want it to be OP so i have no idea on the points costs i'd throw out but those are just some ideas i'm throwing around.

So what do you guys think?

They're an assault unit from the Wych Cults, giving them heavy weapons just doesn't fit.

As far as the Grav Talon goes the best thing I can think of for it is to change it to be like Mandiblasters or Data Spikes, generating extra attacks at I10 rather than working on Hammer of Wrath because at present I don't think there's anything you can do with it that won't either leave it a substandard choice or miles better than the Cluster Caltrops.

For the riders, the option for Hellglaives would be nice, especially if Hellglaives were AP4.

I would be happy if they just gave us some HQ choice that could ride a jet-bike.

lusciifi wrote:
I would be happy if they just gave us some HQ choice that could ride a jet-bike.

Yes please. I miss my Archon on Reaver.

BTW, Corsair jetbikes can have Splintercannons or Dark Lances, so there is that.

I'd be OK with the following:

General statline upgrade to WS5/A2 (all Wyches should have this, though), give me Jetbike-riding Archons and/or Succubi, and add Disintegrators to the list of available special/heavy weapons. Maybe fix the Grav-talon to basically deliver a free grav weapon hit (wounds on armor save, AP2, concussive) at I10?

One thing I'd really like, but might make them a little too strong, is to make the base movement distance for Reavers - and anything else on a Reaver Jetbike - 18". That's a huge upgrade in threat range and gives them a lot more board control than they have now.

No 3+ save?
Skill rider?
corsair weapons Like Galef says?

Naaris wrote:
No 3+ save?
Skill rider?

No really sure what you mean here. They already have Skiller Rider and don't/shouldn't have a 3+.

I like Jade_Angel's idea about the 18" movement. It says in their fluff that the Reaver jetbike is stripped of anything unnecessary so that it can go as fast as possible.
Yet they move no faster than an Eldar Windrider?
Swooping Hawk wings grant 18" move, so I don't think it's out of the question to give Reavers 18" movement

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I'd sorta like to see them buffed to a 4+ save and Windriders nerfed to a 4+ (Shining Spears can keep their 3+ from heavy aspect armor). But, I think that starts getting into other territory and verges on the perennial "balancing bikes vis-a-vis Jump Infantry" dispute, so I'm not going there for now.

I know with an 18" threat bubble, I could use Reavers much more for area denial than I currently do. I suppose I'd like them to have Dodge in melee like Wyches do, but that might be a bit much, especially if you get a combat drug for +1T: T5/4++/FNP is a tough nut to crack.

As others have pointed out, I don't feel that making them long-ranged shooters really fits them. Mobility boosts would be fluffy for them, but I don't personally feel that they're "slow" or lack maneuverability by any means.

I feel that the real issue with reavers (who perform their current main job pretty well) is that they only get used a single way. Giving them a special rule akin to the shining spears' where they get a cover save even if they don't jink might not be bad because it would let them do mid-range dakka, but they can already move into ruins without a problem.

Maybe let them shoot at BS2 after jinking?

Wyldhunt wrote:

Maybe let them shoot at BS2 after jinking?

Honestly this should be a rule for all Dark Eldar.

 Galef wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Maybe let them shoot at BS2 after jinking?

Honestly this should be a rule for all Dark Eldar.

If GW insists upon pushing through the FAQ that makes passengers snap shoot after jinking, I think it makes sense that dark eldar get a rule that basically ignores that. Shooting out of boats is our thing. It's also a weirdly anti-dark eldar ruling considering the only other things affected by it are harlies (who'd rather be punching you most of the time), necrons (who don't really mind), and a single marine scout transport.

Perhaps an ap 2 submachine gun weapon like disintegrators but with less range. Think of the blaster vs the dark lance. One is heavy and the other is assault but the assault one has shorter range. It'd also be nice if we could take something that could handle gargantuan creatures more. Perhaps close combat options with fleshbane or poisoned and the as per usual rending attacks.

Also cost increase or not i think reavers need the 4+ invulnerable save in close combat. I can handle everything else but some durability in close combat would be nice. I mean even a 3+ inv. save in close combat would make sense. I really don't think this is asking much considering all the buffs everybody else has. Just make the points fit.

Actually, I'd really like to add a "disintegrator carbine" to the DE special weapon list:

R18 S4 AP2 Assault 2

As for an anti-GC weapon - "Nerveshredder cannon", on the heavy weapon list

R36 S1 AP3 Salvo 2/4, Fleshbane, Shred

As cool as "disintegrator carbines" and "nerveshredder cannons" sound, I'm just not sure they really fit reaver jetbikes.

My understanding of reavers is that they're all about ridiculous speed, bike stunts, and savoring the taste of sudden, high-speed death. They're sort of like wyches on motorcycles. For the same reason it would feel weird to give a wych a dark lance, giving a reaver a way to murder infantry at long range feels odd. I kind of see blasters and heat lances as a way for them to pop open tanks so they can get at the people inside.

Perhaps there should be reavers that focus on up-close shenanigans and a kabalite equivalent that focuses on pragmatic ranged fire support?

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, I'd really like to add a "disintegrator carbine" to the DE special weapon list:

R18 S4 AP2 Assault 2

As for an anti-GC weapon - "Nerveshredder cannon", on the heavy weapon list

R36 S1 AP3 Salvo 2/4, Fleshbane, Shred

AP 3 means only the stormsurge would care. I think wraithknights have 2+ armor but i agree we need options.

Wyldhunt wrote:


Perhaps there should be reavers that focus on up-close shenanigans and a kabalite equivalent that focuses on pragmatic ranged fire support?

I was trying to talk about the close combat special weapons and the addition of 4+ invulnerable in close combat to make them survivable. I mean a 4+ inv. save shouldn't be asking much. Honestly with how fast reavers are i'd imagine it could be a 3+ invulnerable save but the cost would shoot up considerably.

We really do need more bikes options though. I mean it makes no sense the high speed faction has less jetbikes than eldar.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


AP 3 means only the stormsurge would care. I think wraithknights have 2+ armor but i agree we need options


I was trying to talk about the close combat special weapons and the addition of 4+ invulnerable in close combat to make them survivable. I mean a 4+ inv. save shouldn't be asking much. Honestly with how fast reavers are i'd imagine it could be a 3+ invulnerable save but the cost would shoot up considerably.

We really do need more bikes options though. I mean it makes no sense the high speed faction has less jetbikes than eldar.

Actually the wraithknight is also 3+. The riptide is in the minority, most MC/GMC's have a 3+.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would being able to hit and run at I2 instead of at the end of combat be too OP?. It would give a reason to take grav-talons.

Wyldhunt wrote:
As cool as "disintegrator carbines" and "nerveshredder cannons" sound, I'm just not sure they really fit reaver jetbikes.

My understanding of reavers is that they're all about ridiculous speed, bike stunts, and savoring the taste of sudden, high-speed death. They're sort of like wyches on motorcycles. For the same reason it would feel weird to give a wych a dark lance, giving a reaver a way to murder infantry at long range feels odd. I kind of see blasters and heat lances as a way for them to pop open tanks so they can get at the people inside.

Perhaps there should be reavers that focus on up-close shenanigans and a kabalite equivalent that focuses on pragmatic ranged fire support?

No, I agree those don't fit - I was veering slightly OT there, those are more weapons for Trueborn or Scourges.

Reavers seem like they are meant to be like cavalry in medieval combat. Charge in for the initial impact and then pull back out to charge in again if the initial charge didn't break them (preferably with something durable like Grotesques or a Talos to hold the enemy in place). Shooting doesn't seem like their primary purpose and they are far more durable jinking when being shot at than staying locked in combat.

Personally I think that style of combat is cool and somewhat unique instead of the typical beatstick, fodder, or deathstar style unit.

whut why.....

Jetbikes are on among the most broken units a game of capture the flag. These have a specific role and that is great. We don't need them to be anything else.

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, I'd really like to add a "disintegrator carbine" to the DE special weapon list:

R18 S4 AP2 Assault 2

As for an anti-GC weapon - "Nerveshredder cannon", on the heavy weapon list

R36 S1 AP3 Salvo 2/4, Fleshbane, Shred

I love the idea of the Nershredder Cannon but a S4 plasma weapon doesn't sound right.

 Imateria wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Actually, I'd really like to add a "disintegrator carbine" to the DE special weapon list:

R18 S4 AP2 Assault 2

As for an anti-GC weapon - "Nerveshredder cannon", on the heavy weapon list

R36 S1 AP3 Salvo 2/4, Fleshbane, Shred

I love the idea of the Nershredder Cannon but a S4 plasma weapon doesn't sound right.

One of the weirdest things I noticed about the DE codex as a whole is the Wargear list. There are 4 special weapons: Blaster, Heatlance, Shredder and Haywire blaster, yet the only unit in the entire codex that can use all 4 is Scourges. And Reavers have their own separate points cost for Blasters & HLs. So why bother making a "Special Weapons" list in the Wargaer page?
I'd be happy if they just opened up all 4 options to all units that can take Special Weapons (so Kabalites, Reavers and of course Scrouges) with a points decrease for Blasters (to match what Reavers currently have). That would make the book easier to use, give more options to a poorly written book, and make Reavers more versatile, yet still better suited to CC.
It's a shame that the units are restricted by what comes on the sprue instead of allowing players to swap out the same weapons on different platforms.

And, again an 18" regular move would further set Reavers apart from Hellions, Scourges and Eldar WIndriders.

-

I would like a special rule to increase their speed as well. Eldar jetbikes are the fastest land units in the universe, and reavers are faster than all of them. Maybe give them the option to eldar jetbike assault move after turbo boosting? That wouldn't make them more killy, just make them the absolute fastest units in the game.

Keep the cluster caltrops, but bring back the old grav talon from 5th. Then on top of that you can add in some options like the eldar Corsairs gave them: dark lances, blasters, heat lances, splinter rifles, or splinter cannons.

I also enjoy their 3++ jink, but abhor their 5+ armor and lack of CC invulnerable save.

Maybe this can be overhauled with some core codex rules? Each unit has faction: [blank] so they have overarching special rules kind of like daemons.

Faction: wytch cult would grant 4++ invuln in the assault phase (unless you have a different special rule like lillith), a separate power from pain table, and combat drugs.

Faction: Haemonculus Covens has their own power from pain table kind of like they have in their codex supplement, and gain fnp and fear naturally from this.

Faction: Kabals grants their power from pain table, all splinter weapons wound on 3+, and heavy weapons may be fired at full ballistic skill if embarked on a transport that moved no more than 6".

Finally give all vehicles sky assault: units embarked on a transport with this special rule ignore the effects of this vehicle's jinking.

That should solve about 90% of Dark Eldar's troubles.

 oldzoggy wrote:
whut why.....

Jetbikes are on among the most broken units a game of capture the flag. These have a specific role and that is great. We don't need them to be anything else.

Hmm? Jetbikes are good at getting to objectives, but I'm not sure what you mean when referring to "capture the flag." If you're talking about Emperor's Will, they'll get to an objective just fine, but they won't have obsec, and they won't survive a turn of sitting in the middle of the enemy's remaining forces. If you're talking about the relic, you realize that you can't move more than 6" in a given phase if you're carrying it, right? Jetbikes are actually among the worst units to grab a relic with because it shuts down most of their speed and because they're usually relatively expensive if they die holding it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr ghoti wrote:
I would like a special rule to increase their speed as well. Eldar jetbikes are the fastest land units in the universe, and reavers are faster than all of them. Maybe give them the option to eldar jetbike assault move after turbo boosting? That wouldn't make them more killy, just make them the absolute fastest units in the game.

Keep the cluster caltrops, but bring back the old grav talon from 5th. Then on top of that you can add in some options like the eldar Corsairs gave them: dark lances, blasters, heat lances, splinter rifles, or splinter cannons.

I also enjoy their 3++ jink, but abhor their 5+ armor and lack of CC invulnerable save.

Maybe this can be overhauled with some core codex rules? Each unit has faction: [blank] so they have overarching special rules kind of like daemons.

Faction: wytch cult would grant 4++ invuln in the assault phase (unless you have a different special rule like lillith), a separate power from pain table, and combat drugs.

Faction: Haemonculus Covens has their own power from pain table kind of like they have in their codex supplement, and gain fnp and fear naturally from this.

Faction: Kabals grants their power from pain table, all splinter weapons wound on 3+, and heavy weapons may be fired at full ballistic skill if embarked on a transport that moved no more than 6".

Finally give all vehicles sky assault: units embarked on a transport with this special rule ignore the effects of this vehicle's jinking.

That should solve about 90% of Dark Eldar's troubles.

Some neat ideas in here. Personally, I'd rather they not gain 1-per-1 access to heavy weapons the way craftworlders and corsairs do. That particular option does very problematic things to the meta. I'd rather all jetbikes go back down to 1-per-3. I'm also not a huge fan of giving them access to some of the longer-ranged guns that the corsairs get. They're supposed to be speedsters that race forward and slit your throat with the blades on their bikes. Taking time to line up the anti-tank equivalent of a sniper rifle doesn't really fit. Short-ranged weapons sort of make more sense because the shorter range means you can spend less time aiming.

I kind of like that they have 5+ armor (makes them even "lighter" than harlequin bikes), but I wouldn't mind a 4+ armor save. I'm opposed to them getting a wych's dodge save in melee. Wyches get their save because they're spending their time parrying and dodging. They're putting on a show. They probably know how to kill off an enemy more efficiently (like incubi would), but their craft is to show off and bleed an enemy out so everyone can enjoy the spectacle. It's hard to dance around and parry when you're on a jetbike. I could see some sort of rule granting them some sort of invul or forcing rerolls to-hit if they declare they're planning on hit&running on the turn they charge in. The trade-off would be that now they can be shot at on your opponent's coming turn, and the idea would be that they're charging in and out before the enemy can touch them. Also, giving them a 4+ dodge save would step on wychs' toes. Bikes would be significantly better at it as they have a higher toughness and their higher points cost is offset by the lack of need for a transport.

I really like the idea of giving special rules to sub-factions. Sort of like Chapter Tactics, but for non-marines. Honestly, I wouldn't mind a Chapter Tactics-esque mechanic being worked into every faction. That said, I'm not sure about your implementation. It doesn't really make sense for kabalite warriors taken as part of a "wych cult" detachment to gain a dodge save, for instance. So you'd probably want to handle this kind of like covens do where you can only take certain units as part of that detachment. But then you end up with weird things like clawed fiends in a beastmaster squad having a dodge save, and you make wyches even more worthwhile by giving their tarpitting shtick to even more units (see above).

I'm also not sure about making poison 3+ for kabalites. It encourages venom spam even more, and we already do just fine at poisoning things to death. I do like the "relentless while in a vehicle that moved at combat speed" thing though. Another thing to consider is that kabals aren't just about poison shots and heavy weapons. Kabal-themed armies are the place that you're most likely to see things like archon courts and scourges and incubi. Nodding to those units somehow would be a nice touch.

Wyldhunt wrote:


I really like the idea of giving special rules to sub-factions. Sort of like Chapter Tactics, but for non-marines. Honestly, I wouldn't mind a Chapter Tactics-esque mechanic being worked into every faction. That said, I'm not sure about your implementation. It doesn't really make sense for kabalite warriors taken as part of a "wych cult" detachment to gain a dodge save, for instance. So you'd probably want to handle this kind of like covens do where you can only take certain units as part of that detachment. But then you end up with weird things like clawed fiends in a beastmaster squad having a dodge save, and you make wyches even more worthwhile by giving their tarpitting shtick to even more units (see above).

I'm also not sure about making poison 3+ for kabalites. It encourages venom spam even more, and we already do just fine at poisoning things to death. I do like the "relentless while in a vehicle that moved at combat speed" thing though. Another thing to consider is that kabals aren't just about poison shots and heavy weapons. Kabal-themed armies are the place that you're most likely to see things like archon courts and scourges and incubi. Nodding to those units somehow would be a nice touch.

I might not have been clear on my intentions with the faction abilities. Each unit will have its own faction, not set up by Detachment benefits. I don't want Incubus gaining a 4 + invulnerable save just because I think that's nice.

The rules were just an off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion. I haven't exactly worked anything out in great detail. But ideas are ideas. I don't feel that giving a boost to poison weapons for certain units is that bad of an idea. When I play Dark Eldar for a long time, I was relieved but frustrated that everything in my Army hurt everything else on a 4 +. No matter what I could do, I could hardly change that. While it is easy to remember, it is also annoyingly difficult to win with. Especially with how the meta has changed recently. I don't think that landing on a 3 plus is poison weapons is that big of a deal. In either case, the vehicles would not benefit from the rules, so massed Venom spam wouldn't be as prevalent.