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 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, grenade attacks were stupidly powerful with all attacks hitting rear armor, 95% of vehicles having rear AV10, almost all having 2 or 3 HP's. Basically it meant any basic troop unit getting into base contact would autokill a tank, which was stupid.

But the problem was not inherently grenades, but the vehicle mechanics that similarly make things like scatterlasers so capable as well.

Last I checked the only army with troops with grenades like that was space marines. Plus saying it's an auto kill is an exaggeration it wasn't that good and you also have to catch the tank. Tanks move faster than Infantry.

Not if the tanks are shooting. Which, if they're not, then they're probably not as much of a target.

And space marines includes BA, DA, Grey knights, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Vanilla. Also you have Eldar and harlequins. Oh yeah, and Chaos Space Marines, though they didn't need a nerf.

Eldar troops don't have grenades. They have one unit that does. Harlequins can get one grenade on characters so they're the same now and before. The FAQ makes a dumb mechanic, nerfs one unit that needed it and nerfed lots that didn't need ot.

If the Tank is shooting then it moves at similar speeds or is on the other side of the board. Assuming it's a slower tank. Grenades weren't a threat to tanks and the FAQ makes no sense and isn't needed.

IM talking about grenades and melta bomb where you can only use one or the other.

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, grenade attacks were stupidly powerful with all attacks hitting rear armor, 95% of vehicles having rear AV10, almost all having 2 or 3 HP's. Basically it meant any basic troop unit getting into base contact would autokill a tank, which was stupid.

But the problem was not inherently grenades, but the vehicle mechanics that similarly make things like scatterlasers so capable as well.

Last I checked the only army with troops with grenades like that was space marines. Plus saying it's an auto kill is an exaggeration it wasn't that good and you also have to catch the tank. Tanks move faster than Infantry.

Not if the tanks are shooting. Which, if they're not, then they're probably not as much of a target.

And space marines includes BA, DA, Grey knights, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Vanilla. Also you have Eldar and harlequins. Oh yeah, and Chaos Space Marines, though they didn't need a nerf.

Eldar troops don't have grenades. They have one unit that does. Harlequins can get one grenade on characters so they're the same now and before. The FAQ makes a dumb mechanic, nerfs one unit that needed it and nerfed lots that didn't need ot.

If the Tank is shooting then it moves at similar speeds or is on the other side of the board. Assuming it's a slower tank. Grenades weren't a threat to tanks and the FAQ makes no sense and isn't needed.

*shrug* Say what you want, a whole squad being able to Haywire a SHV in one turn was ridiculous. It might mean my Obelisk sees some play now.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, grenade attacks were stupidly powerful with all attacks hitting rear armor, 95% of vehicles having rear AV10, almost all having 2 or 3 HP's. Basically it meant any basic troop unit getting into base contact would autokill a tank, which was stupid.

But the problem was not inherently grenades, but the vehicle mechanics that similarly make things like scatterlasers so capable as well.

Last I checked the only army with troops with grenades like that was space marines. Plus saying it's an auto kill is an exaggeration it wasn't that good and you also have to catch the tank. Tanks move faster than Infantry.

Not if the tanks are shooting. Which, if they're not, then they're probably not as much of a target.

And space marines includes BA, DA, Grey knights, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Vanilla. Also you have Eldar and harlequins. Oh yeah, and Chaos Space Marines, though they didn't need a nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Kraks let a tac squad cause a wound before all being mulched by op smash attacks.

Ah yes, the OPness of my two WS3 attacks. Fear me!

Most MCs have way more attacks than that.

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, grenade attacks were stupidly powerful with all attacks hitting rear armor, 95% of vehicles having rear AV10, almost all having 2 or 3 HP's. Basically it meant any basic troop unit getting into base contact would autokill a tank, which was stupid.

But the problem was not inherently grenades, but the vehicle mechanics that similarly make things like scatterlasers so capable as well.

Last I checked the only army with troops with grenades like that was space marines. Plus saying it's an auto kill is an exaggeration it wasn't that good and you also have to catch the tank. Tanks move faster than Infantry.

Not if the tanks are shooting. Which, if they're not, then they're probably not as much of a target.

And space marines includes BA, DA, Grey knights, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Vanilla. Also you have Eldar and harlequins. Oh yeah, and Chaos Space Marines, though they didn't need a nerf.

Eldar troops don't have grenades. They have one unit that does. Harlequins can get one grenade on characters so they're the same now and before. The FAQ makes a dumb mechanic, nerfs one unit that needed it and nerfed lots that didn't need ot.

If the Tank is shooting then it moves at similar speeds or is on the other side of the board. Assuming it's a slower tank. Grenades weren't a threat to tanks and the FAQ makes no sense and isn't needed.

*shrug* Say what you want, a whole squad being able to Haywire a SHV in one turn was ridiculous. It might mean my Obelisk sees some play now.

Maybe you should read what I said. Particularly the part where I said that Hawks were a problem.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, grenade attacks were stupidly powerful with all attacks hitting rear armor, 95% of vehicles having rear AV10, almost all having 2 or 3 HP's. Basically it meant any basic troop unit getting into base contact would autokill a tank, which was stupid.

But the problem was not inherently grenades, but the vehicle mechanics that similarly make things like scatterlasers so capable as well.

Last I checked the only army with troops with grenades like that was space marines. Plus saying it's an auto kill is an exaggeration it wasn't that good and you also have to catch the tank. Tanks move faster than Infantry.

Not if the tanks are shooting. Which, if they're not, then they're probably not as much of a target.

And space marines includes BA, DA, Grey knights, Space Wolves, Deathwatch, Vanilla. Also you have Eldar and harlequins. Oh yeah, and Chaos Space Marines, though they didn't need a nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Kraks let a tac squad cause a wound before all being mulched by op smash attacks.

Ah yes, the OPness of my two WS3 attacks. Fear me!

Most MCs have way more attacks than that.

Like the ones that weren't worried about Krak Grenades already? You are right. And the change to grenades did nothing to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:

Maybe you should read what I said. Particularly the part where I said that Hawks were a problem.

Yes, and the FAQ fixed them. How is this a bad thing, again?

I'm not super upset about the grenades at all because I never relied on them.

It's a problem because making dumb mechanics and nerfing lots of units because of one issue is ridiculous.

Example: Scatterbikes are ridiculous. Fix: All units that move during their turn must take an Initiative test at a -2 penalty before shooting to shoot. This fixes scatterbikes by reducing their shooting a lot. But you probably agree that it's a terrible fix.

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, grenade attacks were stupidly powerful with all attacks hitting rear armor, 95% of vehicles having rear AV10, almost all having 2 or 3 HP's. Basically it meant any basic troop unit getting into base contact would autokill a tank, which was stupid.

But the problem was not inherently grenades, but the vehicle mechanics that similarly make things like scatterlasers so capable as well.

Last I checked the only army with troops with grenades like that was space marines.

which are the most common troops anyone encounters and comprise half the armies in the game, also Sisters come with them and IG infantry & Inquisition henchmen can be given them. More than half the armies in the game come with Kraks as standard issue or can be given them.

Plus saying it's an auto kill is an exaggeration it wasn't that good

Hrm, not much of one, getting a 10man infantry squad into CC with a tank would, even with below average rolls, kill 95% of tanks in the game in a single round of CC on average.

and you also have to catch the tank. Tanks move faster than Infantry.

If we're talking Fire Prisms sitting at the back of the board and that can rapidly redeploy, then sure. If we're talking about transports advancing on an opposing force, or non Fast gun tanks, then not really. Likewise, with deployment options like Outflank or Deep Strike there are numerous ways to deliver infantry near enemy armor even on the back board edge.

Again, I dont agree with the way that was interpreted by the FAQ, and I dont think the issue lay with grenades inherently, but Grenades were stupidly overcapable. That said, I dont think the FAQ on Grenades was done out of any balance concern on this issue, and the correct fix should be in changing the vehicle rules.

The grenade thing just showed us how GW rule design work.

That what the GW think the game is like and what players are actually doing after they read what is written are two different things.

And of course it showed us the people out there who will always defend anything what GW is doing no matter what it is
(of all the stuff that needed a fix, grenades were not that thing that needed a fix, but it was this one rule were RAI from the player has nothing to do with RAI from GW)

I haven't used them, yet. But the only games I have played since they started coming out was a Kill Team Tournament.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Rules are technology, as noted in copyright and trademark laws.

Ah, well that sure makes them exactly the same thing. Hold on, my Codex is ringing, I'll have to get right back to you.

Personally I felt the FAQ on grenades was spot on, the idea that everyone is throwing grenades in close combat at once is bat gak stupid (I can just see an entire squad of Marines collectively saying "Here, hold this". at the same time). It's not remotely how grenades are used in real life and even applying creative license to it makes no sense in game.

Drop Pod doors and Tyranids being AoC with Genestealer Cults are the real headscratchers though.

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I felt the FAQ on grenades was spot on, the idea that everyone is throwing grenades in close combat at once is bat gak stupid (I can just see an entire squad of Marines collectively saying "Here, hold this". at the same time). It's not remotely how grenades are used in real life and even applying creative license to it makes no sense in game.

while I totally agree from a realistic perspective, every previous edition allowed grenades to be used in a per model basis and the 7E rules with regards to tank attacks didnt appear to be any different to most people, hence why many have issues with it.

 Imateria wrote:
Personally I felt the FAQ on grenades was spot on, the idea that everyone is throwing grenades in close combat at once is bat gak stupid (I can just see an entire squad of Marines collectively saying "Here, hold this". at the same time). It's not remotely how grenades are used in real life and even applying creative license to it makes no sense in game.

Drop Pod doors and Tyranids being AoC with Genestealer Cults are the real headscratchers though.

And one person using a grenade while everyone else stands around isn't stupid?

Realistic?
Depends on the situation and the unit you are in.
But for an example, in the end of "saving private ryan" they would have not been able to kill the tanks with their "melta bombs" because the whole unit would have only been allowed to throw one (and this guy killed himself with it)

Next thing is, that realism is never a good argument in game design, because you can counter everything with an "realistic" example

It makes marines pay for expensive power fist upgrades to take on vehicles in melee. Krak grenades was never why vehicles are a mess in 7th, though. The Eldar are in the corner laughing as we squabble over some krak grenades. Pathetic.

Martel732 wrote:
It makes marines pay for expensive power fist upgrades to take on vehicles in melee. Krak grenades was never why vehicles are a mess in 7th, though. The Eldar are in the corner laughing as we squabble over some krak grenades. Pathetic.

Agreed. Why do a few people hate cc units getting a chance on vehicles and MCs, when so few actually reach combat anyway?

"Every model gets to use a grenade" = "all 4+ save MCs die in close combat"

Now the Toxicrene can function.

Alcibiades wrote:
"Every model gets to use a grenade" = "all 4+ save MCs die in close combat"

Now the Toxicrene can function.

Considering over half the attacks fail without counting hit rolls that's not true. Most of the grenades miss when you use a 10 man squad and who lets a 10 man squad do that.

Alcibiades wrote:
"Every model gets to use a grenade" = "all 4+ save MCs die in close combat"

Now the Toxicrene can function.

To be fair, 4+sv MC's are a rather rare exception, the vast majority sport a 3+ or 2+ save and many have invuls and FNP or regeneration or something on top of the armor to boot.

Only time my IG care would be vets with demolitions. Not really much point to giving the whole squad meltabombs when they can only chuck one a turn.

That said, the uprade is 20pts and comes with a demo charge. Given each demo charge costs 20pts for SWS, it kind of points to the idea that GW expected you to only use one meltabomb a turn, given the meltabombs are essentially free with the demolitions upgrade.

Alcibiades wrote:
"Every model gets to use a grenade" = "all 4+ save MCs die in close combat"

Now the Toxicrene can function.

and the Toxicrene gets AP2, because...

Reasons!

There is no way on the Empra's brown earth that thing should be AP2. Grenades are the tiniest of counters.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
"Every model gets to use a grenade" = "all 4+ save MCs die in close combat"

Now the Toxicrene can function.

and the Toxicrene gets AP2, because...

Reasons!

There is no way on the Empra's brown earth that thing should be AP2. Grenades are the tiniest of counters.

The same reason every MC gets AP2. It's huge, er, monstrous. Twice the size of a Carnifex!

Grenades are not the tiniest of counters against MCs. Every model in a large squad having a krak grenade is too effective against a large number of MCs. (10 guardsmen with krak grenades will kill the toxicrene in 2 or so turns, but lose only 4 or so guardsmen) and walkers (which is the important catehgory here!), but ineffective against the problem MCs of Wraithknights and Riptides, which will still barely feel it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The counter is a power fist or other power weapon.

A counter that no one can afford, because it will likely just be shot off the table by a scatterbike.

Martel732 wrote:
A counter that no one can afford, because it will likely just be shot off the table by a scatterbike.

*sigh* Not everyone has scatterbikes. In fact, only Eldar have those.

Okay shot off the table by Tau, Guard, Eldar, gravstar marines, Admech, or Necrons. MCs are crazy good in an environment with no tailoring.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A counter that no one can afford, because it will likely just be shot off the table by a scatterbike.

*sigh* Not everyone has scatterbikes. In fact, only Eldar have those.

With Martel it makes little difference. If he isn't facing Eldar it seems to be cheese Tau or SM cheese. His meta is.....not casual.

pm713 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A counter that no one can afford, because it will likely just be shot off the table by a scatterbike.

*sigh* Not everyone has scatterbikes. In fact, only Eldar have those.

With Martel it makes little difference. If he isn't facing Eldar it seems to be cheese Tau or SM cheese. His meta is.....not casual.

Well, then I wouldn't play in that meta.

There's pentaflyrant. Don't forget pentaflyrant.