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Might seem like a bit of an odd question, but I'm curious as to what people think about the jack of all trades nature of space marines. What is a space marine army bad at, or in what areas are space marines unable compete with other armies? I used the word typical in the title because I'm not considering Hyper-competitive WAAC lists (e.g. centurionstars, etc) for the sake of this topic.

For example how does their psychic phase hold up in comparison to other armies (i understand it got a boost recently), how are they at using/dealing with tarpit units?

Another (probably simpler) way of asking this question is what kind of lists do space marines struggle to deal with and how are those lists countered?

Thats not really how space marine work. Space marines are the jack of all trades army. They can do everything well pretty well

What does a typical space marine army lack?

Rarity.

Humility.

Imho, Compared to all other army except Eldar, Marines don't have very obvious deficiency, Upon themselves, Marines have so many different Chapter Tactics, so many combination and trickery. Each one has its own strength, so as a whole they don't have obvious defficiency in general terms. Are they weak at mobility? White Scar Stormlance Demi Company or Hunting force will tell you otherwise. Are they weak in Psychic? Tigirius led Librarian Conclave will likely to defeat all army except Eldar Jetseer Council and Tzeentch Daemon factory in magic duels. Do they lack firepower? Ask how other armies typical MC (maybe even including dreaded Wraith Knight ) hates Ultramarine Grav Centurions Star or Grav Devastors in Skyhammer Annilation formations. Do they lack durability? I won't deny that they are weaker than before due to the increased firepower in current environment, but I believe Medusa Strike Force (especially the CM smashbane) will have a word.

When considering they are "army of Imperial", they can fill up their holes even better, cause it let them take Battle Brother ally from a large variety. For example, if you lack assault units, you can just pick up Space Wolves using TWC as ally. Lacking long range Heavy artillery? Ally with IG.

If you are talking about specific aspect. I think it is the lack of long range S6/7 high RoF weapons (i.e. Scatter laser, HYMP, etc) in which case, hordes of high toughness wounds with no armor save and rely on cover save might be a headache, Nurgle Spawns are a good example, as well as Daemon MCs without armor, like Nurgle Daemon Prince or Belakor. However, I myself wouldn't complain about this, if Marines have something equivalent to Hades Autocannon, HYMP or even Scatter Laser in addition to their current arsenal, it would become totally totally broken beyond repair.

Define typical.

I'd say your typical marine unit lacks specialisation, which in 40k can be a bit iffy. I'd rather poorer combat stats and no krak/frag nades, then having these things included in your base cost, for say a tactical marine, whose job on the tabletop is typically to stand somewhere on an objective, shoot a little bit and score some points before meeting an unremarkable end. Assault marines have bs4, which does them sod all when it comes to the pointy end of the stick in combat.

The space marine formations fix this nicely though, well if you don't mind playing your elite army like a horde army or on the opposite end of the scale, a deathstar.

The only glaring thing I miss when playing marines as opposed to my tau, is skyfire and interceptor. Ironically space marine skyfire is dedicated, where Tau can get it on flexible platforms.

Eldar is probably a little better than SM, they are more mobile and put out more fire power than any SM MSU lists.

SM has the current best death star build tho, but still could be limiting depending on the match ups and the mission.

Imagination, usually.

Space marine armies seem to have more options than any other army in the entire game, and ironically I see more cookie cutter marine armies and builds than pretty much any other faction bar maybe Necrons (I haven't seen a necron army since their 7th dex dropped that hasn't been built on the 1500+ point core of Decurion+Canoptek Harvest)

That, coupled with their snore-tastic model design, pervasive popularity and sucking up over 50% of the game's releases, has led me to be extremely sick of the boys in (insert single boring color here).

Monstrous Creatures

One might make an argument that they have to pay for an Armor save, oodles of rules, and might lack cheap throw away units in mass that other codices have. It can be a lot to utilize to get your points worth, some would recommend you write everything down and checkoff what you have done and haven't done every turn. Utilizing all rules correctly and not forgetting anything is probably part of the skill cap with space marines.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

If you are talking about specific aspect. I think it is the lack of long range S6/7 high RoF weapons (i.e. Scatter laser, HYMP, etc) in which case, hordes of high toughness wounds with no armor save and rely on cover save might be a headache, Nurgle Spawns are a good example, as well as Daemon MCs without armor, like Nurgle Daemon Prince or Belakor. However, I myself wouldn't complain about this, if Marines have something equivalent to Hades Autocannon, HYMP or even Scatter Laser in addition to their current arsenal, it would become totally totally broken beyond repair.

This is probably the best answer, although I think long range firepower in general isn't in most Space Marine lists. The codex includes options for devestators, predators, attack bikes, and land speeders, but they are less seen. The typical space marine list is built around various forms of mobile, short ranged but high firepower units, with hard hitting HtH units added to taste.

the_scotsman wrote:
Imagination, usually.

I agree with this, not to mention that most of the Space Marine armies that I see have a similar composition. Drop Pods with 5 man tac, Land speeders, razorbacks w/ las/plasma, maybe a land raider w/ some termies. Everyone usually has 1 group of sniper scouts w/ cloaks too. It would be nice to see some of the other vehicles, or maybe bikes or assault marines, or even their air units. Don't get me wrong it's not like I'm saying to field inadequate units to make a more picturesque army, but with other armies you definitely see more diversity IMO.

Terminators and land raider. Automatic trash list.

Although I don't play Space Marines, I'm gonna' put in my opinion.

Personally, I believe that Space Marines don't lack anything but specialisation. However, this can be turned around as they have allies - the Imperium. Don't have psykers? Grey Knights. Close-combat soldiers? Space Wolves. Heavy artillery? Imperial Guard. One of the other replies has already pointed this out.

The typical Space Marine list goes something like this:
Captain/Chapter Master

Tactical Squad (10 Men) with Rhino
Tactical Squad (10 Men) with Rhino

Dreadnought (with or without a Drop Pod)

Scouts (Snipers and Cloaks)

Terminator Squad (5 Men)

It would be nice to see some diversity; perhaps somebody one day will decide that scouts with snipers are used too much. I don't know about you but in my FLGS' meta, scouts with heavy bolters or missiles are rarely used. It's always snipers. And tactical squads always come in a Rhino, Razorback, or a Drop Pod.

 d00mspire wrote:
Although I don't play Space Marines, I'm gonna' put in my opinion.

Personally, I believe that Space Marines don't lack anything but specialisation. However, this can be turned around as they have allies - the Imperium. Don't have psykers? Grey Knights. Close-combat soldiers? Space Wolves. Heavy artillery? Imperial Guard. One of the other replies has already pointed this out.

The typical Space Marine list goes something like this:
Captain/Chapter Master

Tactical Squad (10 Men) with Rhino
Tactical Squad (10 Men) with Rhino

Dreadnought (with or without a Drop Pod)

Scouts (Snipers and Cloaks)

Terminator Squad (5 Men)

It would be nice to see some diversity; perhaps somebody one day will decide that scouts with snipers are used too much. I don't know about you but in my FLGS' meta, scouts with heavy bolters or missiles are rarely used. It's always snipers. And tactical squads always come in a Rhino, Razorback, or a Drop Pod.

Tac sqauds are highly immobile and vulnerable without a rhino etc too much high power ordinance out on table tops. Foitslog. 24inch range... useless and rhinos are so cheap and easy fix.

Heavy weaponry in mobile units is... not so effective. Ideal there dug in as a firebase.

Those choices make sense.
And lack nothing. No gap allies cannot fill.

MegaVikingMan wrote:
Humility.

Beat me to it!

 hippyjr wrote:
What does a typical space marine army lack?

Otto Weston wrote:Rarity.

MegaVikingMan wrote:Humility.

Martel732 wrote:Define typical.

the_scotsman wrote:Imagination, usually.

Keep it rolling, guys

I think the biggest issue that marines have is that they pay for their jack of all tradesness at all times while they will rarely in any game use a majority of things they are paying for. In addition because they have moved to the standard upgrade sheet many upgrades are extremely over costed.

Secondly with the rate of fire that is available to certain armies, as well as the availability of D weapons, many things that marines pay for(specifically in the form of durability) are just not worth it. Why take a Terminator, Dreadnaught, vindicator, etc when all you need is a model who will sit on an objective and hide so it doesn't die?. There are only a few things that can survive the current level of fire power available to specific armies and that basically requires making a deathstar and abusing psychic powers.

One quick reaction to the complaint that space marines party for their versatility without using it:

Try being CSM. You'll have less versatility for a higher price!

MegaVikingMan wrote:
One quick reaction to the complaint that space marines party for their versatility without using it:

Try being CSM. You'll have less versatility for a higher price!

Just because a kid is starving somewhere doesnt change the fact that I might be hungry.

Sure other people have it worse, I was not complaining. The title of the thread was "What do you think the army lacks" and so I responded.

Effective non-super friends units that don't come in free transports and aren't invisible. Take those things away, and space marines have a 30% win rate vs Tau and Eldar. Like BA, only a little better who sit at 0%.

Honestly it's less what does the C:SM lack and more how well do they excel at a given trait.

Personally the main weakness I see C:SM has is really just a lack of Str6+ high rate of fire Weaponry. But then comes the fact that we've seen a Meta creep where all the "rarely allowed" units are now dirt common. "Wraithknights, Titans, Superheavies, etc." are pretty much dime a dozen in most tournaments from my experience and so many armies have access to cheaper and more effective varients that the SM are forced to rely on gimmick sets like the Superfriends Deathstar and Free upgrades just to not get wiped off the board in a tourney. Then again I'm a Wolves player so I tend to just get murdered unless I play Thunderwolf spam, which I'm not a fan of.

 d00mspire wrote:
It would be nice to see some diversity; perhaps somebody one day will decide that scouts with snipers are used too much. I don't know about you but in my FLGS' meta, scouts with heavy bolters or missiles are rarely used. It's always snipers. And tactical squads always come in a Rhino, Razorback, or a Drop Pod.

And this is why my group targets me with pickup games I rarely if ever run scouts with snipers, or really anything competitive, maybe 1 min squad of Thunderwolves. I tend to prefer Infiltrating in a 5-9 man squad with cloaks, WGBL and Max plasma for giggles. Then again I generally have to run cloaks cause they've always attracted a stupid amount of fire when I play them

I think they lack whatever it is you choose to lack because they are capable of bringing everything but they cannot sometimes due to spammage of certain things like grav-cannons.

Two editions ago, Grey Hunters were feared and even perhaps cheese. Now they are total victims.

Probably should have added this to start with, but the reason I ask is because I am soon going to add an inquisition detachment to my collection and have read that the inquisition is best used to "fill the gaps" of the force they are being allied to. I get that SM are the all-rounders, but was wondering what the best use of the new stuff would be alongside marines.

Sorry for any confusion/misunderstanding caused!

 hippyjr wrote:
Probably should have added this to start with, but the reason I ask is because I am soon going to add an inquisition detachment to my collection and have read that the inquisition is best used to "fill the gaps" of the force they are being allied to. I get that SM are the all-rounders, but was wondering what the best use of the new stuff would be alongside marines.

Sorry for any confusion/misunderstanding caused!

INQ are good force multipliers for your army. So whatever your army is good at INQ will typically make it a little better.

They are also good at covering a weakness for relatively cheap. Trouble with types of psykers, get a nullrod, need some cheap filler units? Get a few minimized henchmen squads

Deep Strike problems? Coteaz has you covered.

 hippyjr wrote:
Probably should have added this to start with, but the reason I ask is because I am soon going to add an inquisition detachment to my collection and have read that the inquisition is best used to "fill the gaps" of the force they are being allied to. I get that SM are the all-rounders, but was wondering what the best use of the new stuff would be alongside marines.

Sorry for any confusion/misunderstanding caused!

Most competitive marine army builds these days revolve around grav cannon spam (usually with drop pods,) superfriends/deathstar tricks or Gladius abuse.

Grav spam and deathstar lists mostly suffer from not having enough models on the table. Grav lists tend to be weak in assault and deathstar lists have trouble with MSU. INQ has lots of cheap short-ranged firepower (needle pistols, servitors and orangutans) and nasty close combat (rad grenades and death cult) while providing decent transport tanks and some very cheap cannon fodder units for holding down objectives.

Gladius lists have plenty of bodies and tanks already, with more than enough ways to sit on objectives. So you'd probably rely less on dirt cheap bolter-and-t-shirt acolytes and more on fancy specialized warbands. Just keep each henchmen squad geared toward a specific purpose.

Librarians tend to be overpriced so INQ can help you bring lots of cheap psykers for extra WC dice.