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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The difference between suffering a wound and being alocated a wound is whether or not you get a save. And AP2 wound is suffered, for example. Check out the wording for Feel No Pain. The destinction you are making has no support in the rules.

SJ

No, that difference is between a "wound" and an "unsaved wound".

Rulebook page 108, Dangerous Terrain Tests wrote:On a result of a 1, that model suffers a Wound. The model may take an armour or invulnerable save, but not a cover save, against this Wound.

Rulebook page 164, Gets Hot wrote:For each To Hit roll of 1, the firing model immediately suffers a Wound (armour or invulnerable saves can be taken)

Rulebook page 36, Types of Saving Throws - Armour Saves wrote:If the result is lowe than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect it's wearer and it suffers a Wound.

Rulebook page 37, Invulnerable Saves wrote:Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever a model suffers a Wound

So, as we can see from the last two, "suffers" is used to indicate a wound both before (Invulnerable) and after (Armour) a save is taken.

However, one thing to note from looking up those quotes - Gets Hot goes out of it's way to mention that the wound cannot be allocated to any other model by means of LoS!, despite using the "suffers" verbage. This is either a) belt-and-bracers reminder, or b) an indication GW might see the terms as interchangeable.

You just proved my point. Thank you!

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You just proved my point. Thank you!

SJ

Wait so you agree with him?

My point is that suffered and alocated are not separate concepts that follow separate rules to determine final outcomes. His spoiler filled proof agrees with my point. Look Out, Sir! can be use in any instance of an IC attached to a unit taking a wound that does not state that it bypasses Look Out, Sir!, because the rules are permissive and permission has been given. A Coldstar failing a grounding check takes the exact same wound as it would if it were hit by a Lascannon, with the exact same mechanics for dealling with such a wound, mechanics that include a Look Out, Sir! if grouped with Drones, which not only are a legal option but also include a mechanic that sees the Drone(s) available to Look Out, Sir! that specific wound.

And GW has not yet FAQ'd it.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My point is that suffered and alocated are not separate concepts that follow separate rules to determine final outcomes. His spoiler filled proof agrees with my point. Look Out, Sir! can be use in any instance of an IC attached to a unit taking a wound that does not state that it bypasses Look Out, Sir!, because the rules are permissive and permission has been given. A Coldstar failing a grounding check takes the exact same wound as it would if it were hit by a Lascannon, with the exact same mechanics for dealling with such a wound, mechanics that include a Look Out, Sir! if grouped with Drones, which not only are a legal option but also include a mechanic that sees the Drone(s) available to Look Out, Sir! that specific wound.

And GW has not yet FAQ'd it.

SJ

I think his point was that permission had been granted only when a wound has been allocated, which it has not been in the event of a grounding test.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think his point was that permission had been granted only when a wound has been allocated, which it has not been in the event of a grounding test.

My point was that his statement that "suffering a wound" meant you got no save was demonstrably wrong. I then spotted something interesting and thought it was relevant to the discussion. Somehow that apparently translates to me winning his argument for him, rather than being an example of exactly the situation where a wound was not "allocated", and thus no LoS! was allowed, having an additional statement making it clear that you couldn't take a LoS!

Also, I didn't use any spoiler tags, so I'm not sure what that was about.

Woo hoo! Guess I'll be LoSing all those perils of the warps, since apparently that's how it works if a Coldstar can land on a drone to cushion his fall.

</sarcasm>

Janwin wrote:
Woo hoo! Guess I'll be LoSing all those perils of the warps, since apparently that's how it works if a Coldstar can land on a drone to cushion his fall.

</sarcasm>

Interestingly enough, the Hive Tyrant in a Skytyrant Swarm, can technically do that. The Flyrant in the formation has permission to Look Out, Sir any wound it suffers.

I can just picture a squad of Guardsmen realizing that ever since that Primaris Psyker joined them, their life expectancies have gotten much shorter...

"Sir? May I speak freely?"
"Go ahead, Johnson."
"I've been noticing, sir, but ever since that psyker got assigned to our squad, men seem to be dying of really unusual non-battlefield causes."
"Oh? Like what, Johnson?"
"Well, McDaniels apparently suffered a stroke while eating his rations, at around the same time the psyker lit the campfire."
"Go on..."
"When we came under fire from those orks and the psyker put up a shield to protect us, Thompson fell down and started twitching."
"Yes, that was a bit odd."
"And Fredrikson still hasn't been seen since he disappeared from the middle of the squad at the same time the psyker was shooting lightning at the orks."
"I think I'm starting to see the pattern here, Johnson. You are imagining things, clearly having been affected by some sort of foul warp infection which is causing you to spread discontent. Commissar!"

Janwin wrote:
I can just picture a squad of Guardsmen realizing that ever since that Primaris Psyker joined them, their life expectancies have gotten much shorter...

"Sir? May I speak freely?"
"Go ahead, Johnson."
"I've been noticing, sir, but ever since that psyker got assigned to our squad, men seem to be dying of really unusual non-battlefield causes."
"Oh? Like what, Johnson?"
"Well, McDaniels apparently suffered a stroke while eating his rations, at around the same time the psyker lit the campfire."
"Go on..."
"When we came under fire from those orks and the psyker put up a shield to protect us, Thompson fell down and started twitching."
"Yes, that was a bit odd."
"And Fredrikson still hasn't been seen since he disappeared from the middle of the squad at the same time the psyker was shooting lightning at the orks."
"I think I'm starting to see the pattern here, Johnson. You are imagining things, clearly having been affected by some sort of foul warp infection which is causing you to spread discontent. Commissar!"

If you ever had the old "Imperial Infantryman's uplifting primer" that was part of the warning against psykers in the guard.

The new one has an image of errata taped over the section talking about how great sanctioned psykers are, but you can still see some of the old text peeking out screeming to purge the unclean.

No look out sir.

The commander fell, commander was wounded. Thats it. Explain with logic please how the drone will jump in front to take the wound.

Lungpickle wrote:
No look out sir.

The commander fell, commander was wounded. Thats it. Explain with logic please how the drone will jump in front to take the wound.

The commander fell on the drone, which broke his fall but was damaged in the process.


Not that I'm saying this works, with the rules, but you did put out the challenge. Personally, I can't say that "suffered" necessarily means allocated, but then again the grounding test was described in the unit rules for something that was supposed to have only one model in the unit. But, Look Out Sir!ing a failed Grounding test after not Look Out Sir!ing one of the Perils of the Warp that the flying monstrous pysker took certainly doesn't seem like it's following the rules. If it didn't automatically pass Dangerous Terrain tests, it could also try Running through Dangerous terrain during the shooting phase to see if it could score the Look Out Sir! Trifecta.

It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

It doesn't work because wounds from grounding checks aren't allocated (which is the requirement to LOS!). It's that simple

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

It doesn't work because wounds from grounding checks aren't allocated (which is the requirement to LOS!). It's that simple

Yes, the wound is allocated. There is no difference between "suffered" and "allocated", unless you can cite a rule that defines either term.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

It doesn't work because wounds from grounding checks aren't allocated (which is the requirement to LOS!). It's that simple

Yes, the wound is allocated. There is no difference between "suffered" and "allocated", unless you can cite a rule that defines either term.

SJ

Allocating Wounds is defined in the Wound Pools section.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

It doesn't work because wounds from grounding checks aren't allocated (which is the requirement to LOS!). It's that simple

Yes, the wound is allocated. There is no difference between "suffered" and "allocated", unless you can cite a rule that defines either term.

SJ

Allocating Wounds is defined in the Wound Pools section.

Correct. Please advise how a single wound suffered is not a wound pool of 1.

SJ

You only allocate wounds from shooting or melee attacks.

Anywhere else simply has the specific model suffer the wound.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

It doesn't work because wounds from grounding checks aren't allocated (which is the requirement to LOS!). It's that simple

Yes, the wound is allocated. There is no difference between "suffered" and "allocated", unless you can cite a rule that defines either term.

SJ

Allocating Wounds is defined in the Wound Pools section.

Correct. Please advise how a single wound suffered is not a wound pool of 1.

SJ

Because the rules don't tell us to make a wound pool for grounded checks. 40k is a permissive rule set. You have to be told what you can do, not what you can't do.

So please tell me where it says grounded checks create a wound pool

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

It doesn't work because wounds from grounding checks aren't allocated (which is the requirement to LOS!). It's that simple

Yes, the wound is allocated. There is no difference between "suffered" and "allocated", unless you can cite a rule that defines either term.

SJ

Allocating Wounds is defined in the Wound Pools section.

Correct. Please advise how a single wound suffered is not a wound pool of 1.

SJ

Because the rules don't tell us to make a wound pool for grounded checks. 40k is a permissive rule set. You have to be told what you can do, not what you can't do.

So please tell me where it says grounded checks create a wound pool

Where the grounding rules state the model suffers a wound. See? Back right around.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

It doesn't work because wounds from grounding checks aren't allocated (which is the requirement to LOS!). It's that simple

Yes, the wound is allocated. There is no difference between "suffered" and "allocated", unless you can cite a rule that defines either term.

SJ

Allocating Wounds is defined in the Wound Pools section.

Correct. Please advise how a single wound suffered is not a wound pool of 1.

SJ

Because the rules don't tell us to make a wound pool for grounded checks. 40k is a permissive rule set. You have to be told what you can do, not what you can't do.

So please tell me where it says grounded checks create a wound pool

Where the grounding rules state the model suffers a wound. See? Back right around.

SJ

No where in the wound rules does it say all wounds come from wound pools. Wound pools are only brought up for shooting and close combat

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

Of course there's the issue that wound suffering and drones being deployed happen at the same time. At which point the one whose turn is decides which happens. Since most of the time grounded happens on opponents turn that means opponent decides. Guess which order he goes for? Not for "drones first, look out sir next"...

So even if you go for that it's legal you can basically use it only when you get shot by interceptor fire and get grounded.

tneva82 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It is the sequence of events that allows the option. If a Coldstar has Drones, the Drones are removed from the table while swooping, but are returned to the table when grounded. A failed grounding check would cause any Drones to return to the table, which would allow a Look Out, Sir! attempt on a 2+ to avoid being ID'd by a Str 9 AP2 wound. Normally, such an ootion is not possible, but in the caee of Coldstar it can be.

SJ

Of course there's the issue that wound suffering and drones being deployed happen at the same time. At which point the one whose turn is decides which happens. Since most of the time grounded happens on opponents turn that means opponent decides. Guess which order he goes for? Not for "drones first, look out sir next"...

So even if you go for that it's legal you can basically use it only when you get shot by interceptor fire and get grounded.

I never stated differently, only that it was a legal possibility.

SJ