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 godardc wrote:
But is has boob plate !
When you say that the SoB's power armour is thin, are you speaking about the miniatures ? The Witch Hunter cover or the Blanche's... "art" (I usually love his work, but this one...) ?
I think the sisters' armour on the Witch Hunter codex are okay, and, IIRC, the models too. But, keeping the exact same design, if GW make plastic sisters, they could do them thicker.

Would you be ok with that ? Or do you really have a problem with SoB's design ?

No, it does not really have boobplate. The breastplate is obviously thick enough, and the boob shape muted enough, to not at all be on the same level.


And all of it really. The blanche art is extreme (the woman on that picture is considerably more slim in armour than most people are outside of it) but the models themselves are also implausibly thin for the armour they wear.

 Manchu wrote:
I guess the novel part is that a woman is inside of it?

The shape of the breastplate, for example - I am not technically a fan of expressing sexual dimorphism on armour plating that is supposed to be protective first and foremost, but this one seems to be the perfect balance of expression and protection. The proportionally (but not unreasonably - clearly the legs do not reach all the way down to the 'feet') long legs only add further to that image and design, together with the gothic, as said almost cathedral-like design elements and themes.

I do not think it is fair to say that I want to make SoB something they are not; in one way that is redundant since you just mentioned the definition of 'change', but the armour design does not change the background or identity of the faction itself, just like how a Space Marine does not lose his identity just because he swaps to Terminator armour.

I suppose you have kind of accidentally brought up another sore point in my book of grudges, when people want to make Sisters more like Marines, including by putting them in giant suits of slab-like armor. I know from your posts over the years that you personally tend to favor big hulking armor - but that is outside of the design space for Sisters.

That a design space is current does not in itself make it worth keeping. The Imperium has plenty of smaller troops, such as AM, IG and MT. That alone is not a reason to keep SoB with twodimensional armour plating.

And now we're back to someone who "likes" Sister but only if they are completely different ...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Gen.Steiner wrote:
Their haircut is a simple battle bob. It's uniform, it's thematic, it's easy to paint. I don't really think they need a redesign.

The heads should be shorn, or covered with wimples, or helmeted. The bob is probably the worst possible look for militant nuns.

Keep in mind, if the Sisters of Battle faction weren't women, it wouldn't exist at all in the lore.

It's very important to an army where the only lore reason they're allowed to exist is because they're female, to look as female as possible.

Because you do not want people to start thinking you might be sneaking men into your ranks.

 Manchu wrote:
And now we're back to someone who "likes" Sister but only if they are completely different ...

Again:

 Ashiraya wrote:

I do not think it is fair to say that I want to make SoB something they are not; in one way that is redundant since you just mentioned the definition of 'change', but the armour design does not change the background or identity of the faction itself, just like how a Space Marine does not lose his identity just because he swaps to Terminator armour.

If you feel SoB are so ludicrously shallow that getting rid of their gratuitous boobplate is killing their identity, then honestly, squat them for all I care; nothing of value will be lost.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
And now we're back to someone who "likes" Sister but only if they are completely different ...

Again:

 Ashiraya wrote:

I do not think it is fair to say that I want to make SoB something they are not; in one way that is redundant since you just mentioned the definition of 'change', but the armour design does not change the background or identity of the faction itself, just like how a Space Marine does not lose his identity just because he swaps to Terminator armour.

If you feel SoB are so ludicrously shallow that getting rid of their gratuitous boobplate is killing their identity, then honestly, squat them for all I care; nothing of value will be lost.

Their boobplate is not gratuitous. It serves an important function in the lore.

If you think that SoB can only be worthwhile if subjected to a thorough redesign then you obviously don't even like SoB in the first place and are just here to talk about the female angle.

 Manchu wrote:
If you think that SoB can only be worthwhile if subjected to a thorough redesign then you obviously don't even like SoB in the first place and are just here to talk about the female angle.

Generally I wonder why anyone who knows the very most basic thing about Sisters of Battle lore would ever suggest changing any part of their aesthetic that would result in them looking less feminine.

Do you guys really think that removing the boobplate would make everyone suddenly realise that the Ecclessiarchy has exploited a legal loophole for millennia, and start to object?

I know the 'Imperium is stupid' meme is popular, but this is really going a bit far.


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 Manchu wrote:
If you think that SoB can only be worthwhile if subjected to a thorough redesign then you obviously don't even like SoB in the first place and are just here to talk about the female angle.

Not the SoB themselves, just their armor. For the third time, they will not stop being zealous warrior nuns in the service of a rich gothic sci-fi church just because they get better armor.

 Pouncey wrote:
Generally I wonder why anyone who knows the very most basic thing about Sisters of Battle lore would ever suggest changing any part of their aesthetic that would result in them looking less feminine.

It usually begins with a rant about high heels and eventually the lore is totally forgotten.

I guess we could compare it to the Space Wolves, who I have similar feelings about. I do not dislike them, but they honestly need a reduction in wolfiness by about 80%.

But I guess that is totally okay to you two, because the Wolves are a more popular target to complain on, even though I'd argue the Sisters design is just as dumb as the santasleigh and Canis Wolfborn added together.

Again, that it is established does not mean that it is not bad.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Not the SoB themselves, just their armor.

The look of a faction is one of its key aspects. I don't know how many ways I can explain that I don't care about generic armored female religious warriors - I care about the Sisters of Battle. That's the difference between someone who is here to talk about SoB and someone who is here to talk about boobplate.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Do you guys really think that removing the boobplate would make everyone suddenly realise that the Ecclessiarchy has exploited a legal loophole for millennia, and start to object?

I know the 'Imperium is stupid' meme is popular, but this is really going a bit far.

They're willing to tolerate the loophole. That loophole is entirely about their physical sex. Thus, you should ensure that when anyone looks at the army you're getting through the fact they're women and not men, they look like women and not men. Because if they're finding it hard to tell that your troops are in fact female, they might start thinking you're also recruiting men, which you're not allowed to do. And then they would organize inspections of your entire army to ensure, for a fact, they are women. Those inspections annoy your troops and prevent them from doing their duties while they're happening.

Ergo, you should ensure that every human being who looks at your female troops, has zero doubt whatsoever that they are, in fact, female, so that the chain of events leading to those inspections doesn't happen.

Which you would do through excessively exaggerating their aesthetic to make them look as female as you can.

Shaved heads are BAD for Sisters of Battle. Longer hair looks more feminine to humans, so a longer, feminine haircut is required.

One of the major things that lets a human know someone is a woman and not a man just by looking at them, is the fact she has breasts. So you ensure that they always appear to have breasts. This necessitates the huge boobplate.

And the design of the rest of the armor has, to my eye, always made them look like very sexy women, even while ignoring the boobplate, so their armor design succeeds in making them look very feminine in general.

High heels could actually play into this as well, because men don't generally wear high heels but women do. However, high heels also make combat nearly impossible, so aren't used since they would detract from their combat role too much.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I do not dislike them, but they honestly need a reduction in wolfiness by about 80%.

You don't dislike them but you want them to be 80% different from what they currently are? Well it sounds like you don't like them.

 Manchu wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Not the SoB themselves, just their armor.

The look of a faction is one of its key aspects. I don't know how many ways I can to explain that I don't care about generic armored female religious warriors - I care about the Sisters of Battle. That's the differnce between someone who isnherebto talk about SoB and someone who is herebto talk about boobplate.

And they do not stop being Sisters of Battle just because we fix their armour. I still think it is completely absurd that you hinge their entire identity on some badly designed armour plating. It'd be like saying Space Marines are ruined because you remove Centurions. No, it'd be a good thing, not a bad thing!

If the Dark Mechanicus spread a computer virus that disabled all SoB power armour systems, forcing them to use whatever armour is available instead, it does not stop them from being what they are.

Manchu wrote:You don't dislike them but you want them to be 80% different from what they currently are? Well it sounds like you don't like them.

I like what they should be, not what they are.

Pouncey wrote:

They're willing to tolerate the loophole. That loophole is entirely about their physical sex. Thus, you should ensure that when anyone looks at the army you're getting through the fact they're women and not men, they look like women and not men. Because if they're finding it hard to tell that your troops are in fact female, they might start thinking you're also recruiting men, which you're not allowed to do. And then they would organize inspections of your entire army to ensure, for a fact, they are women. Those inspections annoy your troops and prevent them from doing their duties while they're happening.

So where are those constant searches through SoB ranks to ensure that men are not hiding inside that armour and the boobplate is just fake? SoB do frequently use helmets after all.

The answer is that nobody does it because the Ecclessiarchy is not really under any meaningful scrutiny, aside from the Inquisition (who have better things to do than inspect the sex of your soldiers). It is a very rich organisation with the Imperium's omnipresent faith in its control.

You all ascribe some headcanon to SoB that they wear extremely exaggerated armour because it keeps everyone around them too dumb to realise that the Ecclessiarchy completely ignored the spirit of the laws under which it was placed. I do not consider that headcanon part of what makes SoB what they are.

Do you have any actual lore quotes whatsoever speaking of how their armour is designed to be as feminine as possible to avoid retribution due to their violation of the spirit of the Decree Passive?

You like what "they should be"? And what about the folks who like what they are?

Similarly, SoB armor doesn't need to be "fixed" because it is not broken.

If you have lists of things that are "wrong" with a current faction please consider that you may just not like a thing before assuming that what you would prefere is what's right.

You will not find any lore quotes regarding the headcanon you two are trying to pass off as lore, because there aren't any.

SoB armour originates from the design of Vandire himself, who designed it for his harem-bodyguard. That does explain the gratuitous breasts, but it does not give any reason why they chose to keep it!

Sorry where is the cite for Vandire designing the armor for his sexual gratification?

Is there any particular other reason he would do it? This was before the decree passive.

Speaking of which, I am still waiting for a citation regarding the purpose of SoB power armour in keeping up the letter of the decree passive. It is getting somewhat annoying that you just drop the subject like a hot potato the moment someone calls you out on it.

Seriously what did you just complain about, regarding headcanon?

You have zero right to call me out on a claim I didn't make. I don't purport that there is any fluff passage that explains why SoB armor looks like it does. I do agree that there is no fluff reason to make them less feminine looking.

Meanwhile, I am still waiting for you to explain why you are the arbiter of what is right and wrong when it comes to other peole's favorite factions.

I am happy to concede that I cannot tell for sure why Vandire designed it, if it makes you happier.

 Manchu wrote:
You like what "they should be"? And what about the folks who like what they are?

If you enjoy wolfy mcwolfywolfwolfwolfson on his santa sleigh instead of wolf-themed space vikings, then I do not have much sympathy to share, sorry.

Similarly, SoB armor doesn't need to be "fixed" because it is not broken.

It'll break pretty fast if someone actually shot something at it, though.

 Manchu wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I do not dislike them, but they honestly need a reduction in wolfiness by about 80%.

You don't dislike them but you want them to be 80% different from what they currently are? Well it sounds like you don't like them.

It's more fair to talk about Space Wolves that way because they used to be less wolfy, or at least used to be more open to interpretation if you wanted them wolfy or vikingly.

I liked SW before they had flying dog's heads, space marines riding giant wolves who might be failed aspirants, logan sleigh, on so on.

Sisters have (as far as I'm aware) always been the way they are, at least going back to 2nd edition.

I don't have any sympathy for people who tell me my favorite faction is dumb, boring, immoral, or whatever because it doesn't live up to their idiosyncratic, WoW-based aesthetic preferences, espeically regarding a peculiar attachment to the idea that women warriors are best portrayed as seven-foot-tall suits of androgynous armor.

Not quite. Since things are apparently a-OK if they are existing or previous lore, consider this.



That is not so bad, considering its age. Not perfect, but some things are better to be sure.

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 Manchu wrote:
I don't have any sympathy for people who tell me my favorite faction is dumb, boring, immoral, or whatever because it doesn't live up to their idiosyncratic, WoW-based aesthetic preferences, espeically regarding a peculiar attachment to the idea that women warriors are best portrayed as seven-foot-tall suits of androgynous armor.

No, I am telling you that their armour (for the fifth time, =/= their faction) is dumb because not only does it probably not work under scrutiny (much like many other 40k elements), it also does not look like it would work even at a glance.

The concept picture I linked at the start is also far from androgynous, which I also feel I addressed thoroughly.

It honestly doesn't matter how many times you declare that redesigning the look of Sisters is fine and dandy with you and your conception of them; you could state this a thousand times, and it still would not matter one iota to me because I am a fan of the SoB, not some hypothetical faction that suits your tastes.

The idea that anything at all in 40k needs to look like it could actually work is endlessly laughable.

And it honestly doesn't matter how many times you declare that their grating PA design is fine and dandy with you and your conception of them; you could state this a thousand times, and it still would not matter one iota to me because I like armour that at least looks like at a glance like it would reasonably work, and I find it completely implausible that the SoB as a faction are so reliant on a foundation of armour globe-tits that the entire faction collapses if they are removed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
The idea that anything at all in 40k needs to look like it could actually work is endlessly laughable.

I'd argue that the SoB boobplate reliance is the more laughable thing.

Suspension of disbelief is a thing even in 40k.

Of the two of us, you are the one utterly obsessed with their tits. You consistenly come back to them again and again and sublimate your bizarre fetish of this issue onto everyone else, which is why I already explained the difference between being interested in the actual faction and just being way, way too into their boobies.

It truly boggles the mind how people get so obsessed with SoB boobs. Why not spend your time posting about how Eldar Harlequin look ridiculous or something? The reason: it's not about titties.

You are saying that their removal would defeat the point of the entire faction, and you claim that I am the one obsessed with them?

I am saying that there is nothing wrong with the factions existing visual design. You are the one who has twisted that argument into a commentary solely concerning boobs, which would be typical of your apparent obsession with them. Just because that is all you care about doesn't mean that when I say the existing design is great I am only talking about tits.