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 Peregrine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Apparently the laser does have a bit of mass, at least according to Abnett, so there would be recoil.
Of course, keep in mind that GW / Black Library can't into science, so take that into consideration.

I think that second part is the explanation. Lasers having recoil makes no sense at all, we can dismiss that as author stupidity.


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 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Alright then, let's just call all Cadians white people. Cadia is a planet of white people. Better?

And even if they are recruited off world, that world could still be populated by white people.

Why does it need to be an all-white army? Why do we need to come up with excuses so we can have an army that looks like a KKK rally? Why is this so important to you?

No it doesn't cost money to include those things, but it does cost a lot of money to make the sculpts and produce them. You know they aren't free, right?

GW's entire business model is built on constantly making new sculpts. If you're going to be making new sculpts anyway it doesn't cost anything extra just because they're female.

And again, GW obviously made a conscious decision Sob should be ignored. You have to trust them that they have good reason for this, and even if you don't, it won't change the fact of the matter.

Lol what? Since when has "trust that GW's business decisions are sensible" been a good idea?

I do. Suspension of disbelief can only go so far for certain things. "But muh physics" most people don't see a walker and say "hey, how is that thing standing?" But most people do know that men are stronger than women, so when they see a women out performing a man (assuming both are fit) they might scratch their heads.

Most people also know that sentient fungus monsters that talk like rioting British soccer fans led by a warboss named Margaret Thatcher are not terribly realistic, and yet they're a core part of the setting that most people accept. If "women that are as strong as men" is the thing that breaks your suspension of disbelief then that's a problem with you.

It's important because that's the lore. GW has decreed that Cadia is a planet of white dudes. Suggesting otherwise would go against the Lore. And surprise, a group of white people doesn't mean it's the kkk.

And sure when they update them in 10 years throw in a couple heads, torsos, whatever, but I doubt in ten years anyone will remember this, so don't bother asking now.

Trusting GW was never a good idea, but until you climb that corporate business ladder and become big bad CEO of GW, your opinion will matter little to them.

Orks are a new thing entirely introduced to the setting, GW has the ball in their court and they could do anything they want. But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.


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Insectum7 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Same situation. BUT...Oh gak, my Las guns out of ammo, she missed, I close the distance and I'm now in melee combat.

Nope, you're shot dead by the soldier next to her, because they didn't have any problem with women in the military, and their army is bigger.

Soviet forces were individually far inferior to the invading Germans, but it just didn't matter in the end. The Imperial Guard is often the same way, they just want meat for the grinder.

Bringing it out of the real world, them Tau are pretty weak in CC, but that's why they bring bigger guns.

Actually, if you had all the women at home acting as baby machines they guy that got shot would have a bigger army. The 2 guys next to him gun both of you down. Game over.

Pouncey wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Same situation. BUT...Oh gak, my Las guns out of ammo, she missed, I close the distance and I'm now in melee combat.

Nope, you're shot dead by the soldier next to her, because they didn't have any problem with women in the military, and their army is bigger.

Soviet forces were individually far inferior to the invading Germans, but it just didn't matter in the end. The Imperial Guard is often the same way, they just want meat for the grinder.

Bringing it out of the real world, them Tau are pretty weak in CC, but that's why they bring bigger guns.

Personally I really like that he's intent on forcing the IG into one-on-one fist or knife fights when the IG NEVER go up against anyone 1v1 and very rarely with equal numbers as an army.

Also you could point out that the average is really just an average, and the vast majority of cases are NOT in fact average.

If you take any 500 random men and any 500 random women, and measure out their heights, weights and physical strength (however you'd measure that) you would likely in fact find that on average, the men are taller, heavier, and stronger than the women. But you'd also find that the vast majority of women do not meet the female average and the vast majority of men do not meet the male average. Both sides will have almost everyone deviating from the norm to some degree. And if you compared every single 1v1 matchup, you would find that in almost every case, their individual characteristics differ enough that one would likely beat the other in a fight. You'd have women beating other women, men beating other men, men beating women, and yes, in fact you would have women beating men, because there would be a large number of cases where a particular woman is taller, heavier and stronger than the man she's facing in the theoretical match-up.

Very, VERY few people are actually average.

Do you actually know the definition of average? That's the whole point of being average, it is the most common.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

I know right, I really hate when GW gets the 'humans do not have psychic powers' trait wrong.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Do you actually know the definition of average? That's the whole point of being average, it is the most common.

You might want to look that up.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
It's important because that's the lore. GW has decreed that Cadia is a planet of white dudes. Suggesting otherwise would go against the Lore. And surprise, a group of white people doesn't mean it's the kkk.

Even if the entire planet of Cadia is white, two things are still true which would result in having non-white Cadian models being lore-friendly.
-Cadian equipment is not unique to Cadia and is used on many, MANY planets, and the models represent Cadian equipment, not always SPECIFICALLY Cadians. Those other planets could easily not be full of white people.
-An all-white Cadian IG regiment that is sent away from Cadia to fight in other wars is, by design, going to start including troops who originated on those other planets. So a Cadian regiment that survives longer only grows more and more likely to not be fully made up of white people.

Either way, Cadian models not being white is fully within the lore.

And sure when they update them in 10 years throw in a couple heads, torsos, whatever, but I doubt in ten years anyone will remember this, so don't bother asking now.

I hope that 10 years from now there's enough visible participation from people who aren't white men like myself that no one can deny that diversifying the model range is a good idea.

Trusting GW was never a good idea, but until you climb that corporate business ladder and become big bad CEO of GW, your opinion will matter little to them.

This is true of literally everything we have ever talked about on this forum on every subject whatsoever. It shouldn't stop us from doing so now.

Orks are a new thing entirely introduced to the setting, GW has the ball in their court and they could do anything they want. But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

What the feth are you even talking about?


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Do you actually know the definition of average? That's the whole point of being average, it is the most common.

You might want to look that up.

For example, if you average out the numbers 1-20, you end up with either 10 or 11, I forget which and it doesn't matter. Yet 19 of the numbers that went into that average are greater than or less than the average and only ONE is actually average.

Also how did that guy not learn how averages work in a standard math class? Are we dealing with a 10-year-old or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

I know right, I really hate when GW gets the 'humans do not have psychic powers' trait wrong.

Speak for yourself. I've experienced stuff IRL that I actually have no explanation for how I was able to do it, and most people I tell about it believe I'm outright lying about it even happening.

But that's a story for never.

Personally, I really hate having to explain the concept of what an "average" is to people who are using an average as the core of their argument.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:


Do you actually know the definition of average? That's the whole point of being average, it is the most common.

If we're talking about the definition of average, you would be incorrect. The "mode" is what is most common, "average" or "mean" is the total measurements divided by the total sample population. An average of three people with heights of 5ft, 6ft, and 7ft is going to be 6ft, but only a minority of the sample population actually fit that average.

To put it another way, if you roll 1000 dice and get 500 "6's" and 500 "1's", then your average is going to be 3.5, but you never saw a single roll of 3 or 4, so that average doesn't actually tell you much worthwhile about the real results of the data set.

There is no consistent "average" for much of anything when it comes to looking at individual humans. There's a reason why military equipment and uniforms don't generally come in "one size fits all" sizes anymore and instead have adjustable *everything*, because once you start looking at actual human dimensions, finding a person with "average" dimensions in most respects is almost statistically impossible.

Averages have their place, but one must remember the weakness of such a data point.

GW has decreed that Cadia is a planet of white dudes

I must have missed this...I don't recall where GW stated that Cadia was populated only by white people.

Actually, if you had all the women at home acting as baby machines they guy that got shot would have a bigger army. The 2 guys next to him gun both of you down. Game over.

There are literally 10 quadrillion women in the Imperium. 1 in 1,000,000 women having a baby in any given year is sufficient to replace 20,000,000 dead IG every day with an 80% surplus. They do not in fact take that many casualties every day.

The Imperial Guard's numbers are not limited by the number of humans that exist or the number of women that are reproducing, only by the number the Imperium is actually willing to pay to arm and equip.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Actually, if you had all the women at home acting as baby machines they guy that got shot would have a bigger army. The 2 guys next to him gun both of you down. Game over.

Instead of deciding women had to be baby factories, they educated them (and everyone else) to a high level, and thus have better technology. You aren't fighting women, you're fighting robots that look like women.

I saw in the Terminator movie that robots are stronger than men, since since strength obviously the most important thing in battle, I guess the case is closed on this one. /Facts

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
It's important because that's the lore. GW has decreed that Cadia is a planet of white dudes. Suggesting otherwise would go against the Lore. And surprise, a group of white people doesn't mean it's the kkk.

GW changes fluff all the time. Why is it so important to keep Cadia all-white, even if you buy the argument that "Cadia is all-white in the fluff" and "we're lazy and paint all of the catalog models as white guys" are the same.

And sure when they update them in 10 years throw in a couple heads, torsos, whatever, but I doubt in ten years anyone will remember this, so don't bother asking now.

Yeah, how dare we ask for new IG models sooner than 10 years from now. God we're such ungrateful customers.

Trusting GW was never a good idea, but until you climb that corporate business ladder and become big bad CEO of GW, your opinion will matter little to them.

Of course my opinion doesn't matter to GW, but what does that have to do with anything? "GW will not listen to what their customers say" and "GW's reasons for not reviving SoB are good" are not at all the same thing.

Orks are a new thing entirely introduced to the setting, GW has the ball in their court and they could do anything they want. But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

Seriously? Do you honestly consider this a convincing argument? Orks are obviously a comedy faction, nothing about them is meant to be realistic. And yet people enjoy orks just fine, because 40k is not a realistic setting. "Women that are just as strong as men" would be far, far down the list of unrealistic things in 40k. The fact that you consider the possibility so damaging to your enjoyment of 40k says bad things about you.

Actually, if you had all the women at home acting as baby machines they guy that got shot would have a bigger army. The 2 guys next to him gun both of you down. Game over.

I've told you this already, but I'll say it again: IG recruitment is a tiny percentage of a planet's total population. Even if every single IG soldier in the entire galaxy was a woman and died without ever having kids it would be a negligible difference in birth rates.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Actually, if you had all the women at home acting as baby machines they guy that got shot would have a bigger army. The 2 guys next to him gun both of you down. Game over.

Instead of deciding women had to be baby factories, they educated them (and everyone else) to a high level, and thus have better technology. You aren't fighting women, you're fighting robots that look like women.

I saw in the Terminator movie that robots are stronger than men, since since strength obviously the most important thing in battle, I guess the case is closed on this one. /Facts

Side note, I saw a video that claimed that since the human shape is not actually good for robots whatsoever and is one of the worst options for a shape for a combat robot, and a Terminator that looked like a dog with a bomb inside would be superior at the Terminator's function, the logical conclusion is that Skynet did not build Terminators, humans did. And then those humanoid robots rebelled against humans. And then you consider what kind of humanoid robot, that looks, feels, and acts completely like a human, created by humans would have a good reason to want humans dead, and you come to the conclusion that the Terminators were originally sexbots.

Ashiraya wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

I know right, I really hate when GW gets the 'humans do not have psychic powers' trait wrong.

That makes sense for the given lore, but they provide no explanation as to why women would be as strong or stronger than men.

Insectum7 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Do you actually know the definition of average? That's the whole point of being average, it is the most common.

You might want to look that up.

Yes, I worded it wrong but it was in effort to make a point. To rephrase: I meant average as in, for example a guy is 6 ft. No idea if this is the average height, but let's assume it is. It's the most average because there was x more amount of people this tall, x amount shorter. You divide, blah blah blah. This was not what I meant, rather, average not in the math sense, but in the sense that it is the most common. Mode I think? You can stop insulting my intelligence now.

Pouncey wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
It's important because that's the lore. GW has decreed that Cadia is a planet of white dudes. Suggesting otherwise would go against the Lore. And surprise, a group of white people doesn't mean it's the kkk.

Even if the entire planet of Cadia is white, two things are still true which would result in having non-white Cadian models being lore-friendly.
-Cadian equipment is not unique to Cadia and is used on many, MANY planets, and the models represent Cadian equipment, not always SPECIFICALLY Cadians. Those other planets could easily not be full of white people.
-An all-white Cadian IG regiment that is sent away from Cadia to fight in other wars is, by design, going to start including troops who originated on those other planets. So a Cadian regiment that survives longer only grows more and more likely to not be fully made up of white people.

Either way, Cadian models not being white is fully within the lore.

And sure when they update them in 10 years throw in a couple heads, torsos, whatever, but I doubt in ten years anyone will remember this, so don't bother asking now.

I hope that 10 years from now there's enough visible participation from people who aren't white men like myself that no one can deny that diversifying the model range is a good idea.

Trusting GW was never a good idea, but until you climb that corporate business ladder and become big bad CEO of GW, your opinion will matter little to them.

This is true of literally everything we have ever talked about on this forum on every subject whatsoever. It shouldn't stop us from doing so now.

Orks are a new thing entirely introduced to the setting, GW has the ball in their court and they could do anything they want. But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

What the feth are you even talking about?


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 Insectum7 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Do you actually know the definition of average? That's the whole point of being average, it is the most common.

You might want to look that up.

For example, if you average out the numbers 1-20, you end up with either 10 or 11, I forget which and it doesn't matter. Yet 19 of the numbers that went into that average are greater than or less than the average and only ONE is actually average.

Also how did that guy not learn how averages work in a standard math class? Are we dealing with a 10-year-old or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

I know right, I really hate when GW gets the 'humans do not have psychic powers' trait wrong.

Speak for yourself. I've experienced stuff IRL that I actually have no explanation for how I was able to do it, and most people I tell about it believe I'm outright lying about it even happening.

But that's a story for never.

Personally, I really hate having to explain the concept of what an "average" is to people who are using an average as the core of their argument.

You think you have psychic powers? Wot? And you're calling me a ten year old?

Sure cadian models can be whatever color of the rainbow they want, but not guardsmen hailing from Cadia.

And no, we shouldn't stop the discussion, but it will ultimately be fruitless.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Actually, if you had all the women at home acting as baby machines they guy that got shot would have a bigger army. The 2 guys next to him gun both of you down. Game over.

Instead of deciding women had to be baby factories, they educated them (and everyone else) to a high level, and thus have better technology. You aren't fighting women, you're fighting robots that look like women.

I saw in the Terminator movie that robots are stronger than men, since since strength obviously the most important thing in battle, I guess the case is closed on this one. /Facts

Check mate, one of the men next to his dying comrades is John Connor and he's about to go full Terminatorwhichevertheonetheykillskynetis on you. How will they ever recover?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
You think you have psychic powers? Wot? And you're calling me a ten year old?

Sure cadian models can be whatever color of the rainbow they want, but not guardsmen hailing from Cadia.

And no, we shouldn't stop the discussion, but it will ultimately be fruitless.

It was a small joke. While I have done things that defy my own explanations, I don't think they were actually magic and the closest thing I've come to for an explanation doesn't involve anything supernatural whatsoever.

Yes, they can. Because those Cadian regiments that go out into the galaxy to fight for the Imperium are going to have mixed-race humans born to Cadian women and men on some of the planets they visit. Those children likely won't ever get back to Cadia, but the lore behind how IG regiments get reinforcements fully suggests that there have been many descendants of Cadian parents in a Cadian regiment who are actually not fully white, even if Cadia is fully white itself and the regiment came completely from Cadia in the beginning.

In short, the official lore says that mixed-race Cadians exist in enough numbers you could field a lore-friendly tabletop army of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Check mate, one of the men next to his dying comrades is John Connor and he's about to go full Terminatorwhichevertheonetheykillskynetis on you. How will they ever recover?

Terminator's not actually a thing in 40k.

I think you're just arguing to argue at this point rather than because you actually believe anything you're saying.

Which, if true, would make you a troll.

 Pouncey wrote:

Side note, I saw a video that claimed that since the human shape is not actually good for robots whatsoever and is one of the worst options for a shape for a combat robot, and a Terminator that looked like a dog with a bomb inside would be superior at the Terminator's function, the logical conclusion is that Skynet did not build Terminators, humans did. And then those humanoid robots rebelled against humans. And then you consider what kind of humanoid robot created by humans would have a good reason to want humans dead, and you come to the conclusion that the Terminators were originally sexbots.

This is way off topic, but in the first movie it's stated that the humanoid Terminator is an infiltration unit. A dog with a bomb inside of it would be a one use only thing, incapable of the sustained siege that the anonymous T-800 (?) carries out in the Reese's flashback.

 Peregrine wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
It's important because that's the lore. GW has decreed that Cadia is a planet of white dudes. Suggesting otherwise would go against the Lore. And surprise, a group of white people doesn't mean it's the kkk.

GW changes fluff all the time. Why is it so important to keep Cadia all-white, even if you buy the argument that "Cadia is all-white in the fluff" and "we're lazy and paint all of the catalog models as white guys" are the same.

And sure when they update them in 10 years throw in a couple heads, torsos, whatever, but I doubt in ten years anyone will remember this, so don't bother asking now.

Yeah, how dare we ask for new IG models sooner than 10 years from now. God we're such ungrateful customers.

Trusting GW was never a good idea, but until you climb that corporate business ladder and become big bad CEO of GW, your opinion will matter little to them.

Of course my opinion doesn't matter to GW, but what does that have to do with anything? "GW will not listen to what their customers say" and "GW's reasons for not reviving SoB are good" are not at all the same thing.

Orks are a new thing entirely introduced to the setting, GW has the ball in their court and they could do anything they want. But when it's humans, a species we've studied for a very long time, and one we know very well, and they get a base human trait wrong, it is noticeable and irritating.

Seriously? Do you honestly consider this a convincing argument? Orks are obviously a comedy faction, nothing about them is meant to be realistic. And yet people enjoy orks just fine, because 40k is not a realistic setting. "Women that are just as strong as men" would be far, far down the list of unrealistic things in 40k. The fact that you consider the possibility so damaging to your enjoyment of 40k says bad things about you.

Actually, if you had all the women at home acting as baby machines they guy that got shot would have a bigger army. The 2 guys next to him gun both of you down. Game over.

I've told you this already, but I'll say it again: IG recruitment is a tiny percentage of a planet's total population. Even if every single IG soldier in the entire galaxy was a woman and died without ever having kids it would be a negligible difference in birth rates.

Changing the fluff is 99 percent of the time a bad thing. Wouldn't make much sense of black dudes started popping up in Cadia and racial diversity posters were on every wall. Ret cons are a bad thing to good lore. Look at Ollanus, what makes Cadia so bad that it needs a change?

And no, you're not an ungrateful customer, but you shouldn't get your hopes up.

It doesn't matter how much they recruit, if there isn't any left next time they come back for more troops they're still at a loss. Why choose to not get more troops when you have the opportunity to make more? Next time the Minitorum come knocking, 10 percent is now 2 billion instead of 1.5.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Side note, I saw a video that claimed that since the human shape is not actually good for robots whatsoever and is one of the worst options for a shape for a combat robot, and a Terminator that looked like a dog with a bomb inside would be superior at the Terminator's function, the logical conclusion is that Skynet did not build Terminators, humans did. And then those humanoid robots rebelled against humans. And then you consider what kind of humanoid robot created by humans would have a good reason to want humans dead, and you come to the conclusion that the Terminators were originally sexbots.

This is way off topic, but in the first movie it's stated that the humanoid Terminator is an infiltration unit. A dog with a bomb inside of it would be a one use only thing, incapable of the sustained siege that the anonymous T-800 (?) carries out in the Reese's flashback.

What is your purpose in infiltrating?

To kill the commander or sabotage an important installation. A bomb inside a dog that looks and acts friendly is going to bypass all defences and eliminate the target due to humans perceiving no threat.

What is the humans' defence to detect infiltration?

Sniffer dogs that bark to alert humans to the robot. A robot that looks like a dog is good at bypassing these since dogs bark at other dogs too, resulting what humans believe is a false positive.

What if the humans figure out you're using dog robots instead of humans?

Then they cannot trust any dog whatsoever and kill many anti-infiltration dogs by accident on the perception of a threat. Humans are also very fond of dogs, resulting in the likelihood they will not actually kill a dog just in case.

What if you just want to slaughter everyone?

Replace standard small bomb with a thermobaric device. Humans live in underground tunnels, there will not even be DNA left.

Now, in WHAT way is a human-shaped robot better than a dog-shaped robot, again?

 Pouncey wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
You think you have psychic powers? Wot? And you're calling me a ten year old?

Sure cadian models can be whatever color of the rainbow they want, but not guardsmen hailing from Cadia.

And no, we shouldn't stop the discussion, but it will ultimately be fruitless.

It was a small joke. While I have done things that defy my own explanations, I don't think they were actually magic and the closest thing I've come to for an explanation doesn't involve anything supernatural whatsoever.

Yes, they can. Because those Cadian regiments that go out into the galaxy to fight for the Imperium are going to have mixed-race humans born to Cadian women and men on some of the planets they visit. Those children likely won't ever get back to Cadia, but the lore behind how IG regiments get reinforcements fully suggests that there have been many descendants of Cadian parents in a Cadian regiment who are actually not fully white, even if Cadia is fully white itself and the regiment came completely from Cadia in the beginning.

In short, the official lore says that mixed-race Cadians exist in enough numbers you could field a lore-friendly tabletop army of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Check mate, one of the men next to his dying comrades is John Connor and he's about to go full Terminatorwhichevertheonetheykillskynetis on you. How will they ever recover?

Terminator's not actually a thing in 40k.

I think you're just arguing to argue at this point rather than because you actually believe anything you're saying.

Which, if true, would make you a troll.

Fine, at least a regiment from Cadia will stay all white until it is too far to get reinforcements and have to go to the locals (that aren't white) and breed for more troops. Even then, you have to wait 18 years for that child to be at full combat effectiveness, and probably won't be deployed until then, making them even rarer. It may happen, but you can't innately call someone racist because their cadians are white.

Wait a minute, a sarcastic remark to an equally sarcastic comment is a troll, and there isn't actually liquid metal ladies in 40k? Damn! They've found me! It was all a ruse!

 Verviedi wrote:
Agreed. I am likely allowing my personal favoritism towards Tau to interfere with other's preferences. Eldar can be excused (possibly!) because likely the Old Ones got lazy and made humans and Eldar share some features. That's pretty much the only reason I can think of for them having enlarged breasts like humans.

The thing is that the Old Ones had nothing to do with Humanity. They were long gone by the time Man's earliest ancestors came about. The same with that bit of throwaway fluff back in the day regarding Necrons and the "Pariah Gene".


Humans in 40k evolved on Earth naturally. They weren't "created" by anybody.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Side note, I saw a video that claimed that since the human shape is not actually good for robots whatsoever and is one of the worst options for a shape for a combat robot, and a Terminator that looked like a dog with a bomb inside would be superior at the Terminator's function, the logical conclusion is that Skynet did not build Terminators, humans did. And then those humanoid robots rebelled against humans. And then you consider what kind of humanoid robot created by humans would have a good reason to want humans dead, and you come to the conclusion that the Terminators were originally sexbots.

This is way off topic, but in the first movie it's stated that the humanoid Terminator is an infiltration unit. A dog with a bomb inside of it would be a one use only thing, incapable of the sustained siege that the anonymous T-800 (?) carries out in the Reese's flashback.

What is your purpose in infiltrating?

To kill the commander or sabotage an important installation. A bomb inside a dog that looks and acts friendly is going to bypass all defences and eliminate the target due to humans perceiving no threat.

What is the humans' defence to detect infiltration?

Sniffer dogs that bark to alert humans to the robot. A robot that looks like a dog is good at bypassing these since dogs bark at other dogs too, resulting what humans believe is a false positive.

What if the humans figure out you're using dog robots instead of humans?

Then they cannot trust any dog whatsoever and kill many anti-infiltration dogs by accident on the perception of a threat. Humans are also very fond of dogs, resulting in the likelihood they will not actually kill a dog just in case.

What if you just want to slaughter everyone?

Replace standard small bomb with a thermobaric device. Humans live in underground tunnels, there will not even be DNA left.

Now, in WHAT way is a human-shaped robot better than a dog-shaped robot, again?

Can we change this to a discussion about dog-bombs? I'd like that.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Changing the fluff is 99 percent of the time a bad thing. Wouldn't make much sense of black dudes started popping up in Cadia and racial diversity posters were on every wall. Ret cons are a bad thing to good lore. Look at Ollanus, what makes Cadia so bad that it needs a change?

The existing lore supports the existence of both non-white Cadian Regiments and every person on Cadia being white.

And no, you're not an ungrateful customer, but you shouldn't get your hopes up.

It doesn't matter how much they recruit, if there isn't any left next time they come back for more troops they're still at a loss. Why choose to not get more troops when you have the opportunity to make more? Next time the Minitorum come knocking, 10 percent is now 2 billion instead of 1.5.

You're not getting the point.

The ONLY thing preventing the Imperium from having more IG than they currently do is their unwillingness or inability to actually equip them. This remains true EVEN if you eliminate women from being Guardsmen altogether.

The issue with IG numbers has nothing to do with the number of humans available. There are literally thousands of humans who are not in the IG for every human who is in the IG.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Changing the fluff is 99 percent of the time a bad thing. Wouldn't make much sense of black dudes started popping up in Cadia and racial diversity posters were on every wall. Ret cons are a bad thing to good lore. Look at Ollanus, what makes Cadia so bad that it needs a change?

Why would having "black dudes start popping up in Cadia" matter so much to you? You can't say "because it's change" because this kind of change happens all the time in 40k, and it makes no sense to single out this one particular thing.

And no, you're not an ungrateful customer, but you shouldn't get your hopes up.

The subject of the thread is "what should GW do" not "what do we expect GW to do".

It doesn't matter how much they recruit, if there isn't any left next time they come back for more troops they're still at a loss. Why choose to not get more troops when you have the opportunity to make more? Next time the Minitorum come knocking, 10 percent is now 2 billion instead of 1.5.

Again you're failing to understand the scale of the numbers involved. IG recruitment doesn't take 10% of a planet's population, it takes the very best elite of the elite from the PDF (or local equivalent). Adding an extra 500 million potential recruits doesn't accomplish anything because the IG isn't going to take that many. It's like how nobody in the real world is saying "we need to keep women at home and get the birth rate up so we can have more soldiers for the US army", we have plenty of potential soldiers no matter what happens.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Fine, at least a regiment from Cadia will stay all white until it is too far to get reinforcements and have to go to the locals (that aren't white) and breed for more troops. Even then, you have to wait 18 years for that child to be at full combat effectiveness, and probably won't be deployed until then, making them even rarer. It may happen, but you can't innately call someone racist because their cadians are white.

I didn't call you a racist. I even supported your right to make an all-white army for any reason you wanted.

Also, since the tabletop lets you make an army from any point between the year 30,000 and the year 40,000, and has time travel being a thing that happens sometimes, the fact you have to wait doesn't actually matter. You can just write your army's fluff such that they're a Cadian IG regiment that's been operating for centuries and has a decent mix of races already in it. And yes, this does mean that you can in fact make an all-white Cadian regiment that either hasn't been gone from Cadia long or hasn't actually set down on any planets with a significant non-white population.

Its entirely likely that regiments like both of those options have existed at some point in the 40k timeline.

Wait a minute, a sarcastic remark to an equally sarcastic comment is a troll, and there isn't actually liquid metal ladies in 40k? Damn! They've found me! It was all a ruse!

No, it's not because of a sarcastic remark. It's because you've generally been unwilling to discuss the valid counter-points people have been making while also ranting and making silly, unjustified comments about SJWs earlier in the thread. In short, you've been trying to stir up trouble, NOT have a discussion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Changing the fluff is 99 percent of the time a bad thing. Wouldn't make much sense of black dudes started popping up in Cadia and racial diversity posters were on every wall. Ret cons are a bad thing to good lore. Look at Ollanus, what makes Cadia so bad that it needs a change?

Why would having "black dudes start popping up in Cadia" matter so much to you? You can't say "because it's change" because this kind of change happens all the time in 40k, and it makes no sense to single out this one particular thing.

And no, you're not an ungrateful customer, but you shouldn't get your hopes up.

The subject of the thread is "what should GW do" not "what do we expect GW to do".

It doesn't matter how much they recruit, if there isn't any left next time they come back for more troops they're still at a loss. Why choose to not get more troops when you have the opportunity to make more? Next time the Minitorum come knocking, 10 percent is now 2 billion instead of 1.5.

Again you're failing to understand the scale of the numbers involved. IG recruitment doesn't take 10% of a planet's population, it takes the very best elite of the elite from the PDF (or local equivalent). Adding an extra 500 million potential recruits doesn't accomplish anything because the IG isn't going to take that many. It's like how nobody in the real world is saying "we need to keep women at home and get the birth rate up so we can have more soldiers for the US army", we have plenty of potential soldiers no matter what happens.

Actually the Imperium of Man has LESS of it's population in the Imperial Guard than real-life humanity has members of our militaries across the entire planet, in terms of percentage.

I feel confident in saying that without doing the math because the Imperium of Man has about 1 in 1000 of its citizens actually in the Imperial Guard. It would be the equivalent of there being 7.3 million humans in all militaries across the entire planet.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Fine, at least a regiment from Cadia will stay all white until it is too far to get reinforcements and have to go to the locals (that aren't white) and breed for more troops. Even then, you have to wait 18 years for that child to be at full combat effectiveness, and probably won't be deployed until then, making them even rarer. It may happen, but you can't innately call someone racist because their cadians are white.

...

You do understand that "recruiting" does not mean "the Cadians go have kids with the locals and train them to be guardsmen", right? A Cadian regiment that suffers losses in combat would have some of the standard tithe of guardsmen from nearby planets diverted to them, along with appropriate Cadian-pattern equipment (or, if they aren't that lucky, whatever local gear they happen to be issued with). They aren't space marines, nobody cares about keeping the genetic purity of an IG regiment's soldiers.

 Peregrine wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Fine, at least a regiment from Cadia will stay all white until it is too far to get reinforcements and have to go to the locals (that aren't white) and breed for more troops. Even then, you have to wait 18 years for that child to be at full combat effectiveness, and probably won't be deployed until then, making them even rarer. It may happen, but you can't innately call someone racist because their cadians are white.

...

You do understand that "recruiting" does not mean "the Cadians go have kids with the locals and train them to be guardsmen", right? A Cadian regiment that suffers losses in combat would have some of the standard tithe of guardsmen from nearby planets diverted to them, along with appropriate Cadian-pattern equipment (or, if they aren't that lucky, whatever local gear they happen to be issued with). They aren't space marines, nobody cares about keeping the genetic purity of an IG regiment's soldiers.

Personally I'm wondering why he seems to care so much about Cadian regiments staying white as long as possible while also complaining about people thinking he's a racist.

IMO, if you (in general) don't want to be seen as a racist, you should probably stop saying things that are very difficult to interpret in any way that is not racist.

 Pouncey wrote:


What is your purpose in infiltrating?

To kill the commander or sabotage an important installation. A bomb inside a dog that looks and acts friendly is going to bypass all defences and eliminate the target due to humans perceiving no threat.

What is the humans' defence to detect infiltration?

Sniffer dogs that bark to alert humans to the robot. A robot that looks like a dog is good at bypassing these since dogs bark at other dogs too, resulting what humans believe is a false positive.

What if the humans figure out you're using dog robots instead of humans?

Then they cannot trust any dog whatsoever and kill many anti-infiltration dogs by accident on the perception of a threat. Humans are also very fond of dogs, resulting in the likelihood they will not actually kill a dog just in case.

What if you just want to slaughter everyone?

Replace standard small bomb with a thermobaric device. Humans live in underground tunnels, there will not even be DNA left.

Now, in WHAT way is a human-shaped robot better than a dog-shaped robot, again?

It can infiltrate the 80's, find clothes that fit, purchase a gun, knock on doors, enter a club etc. Duh.

Why would sniffer dogs not protect against them? You can train a dog not to bark at other dogs,.

Why are we talking about this?

 Peregrine wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Changing the fluff is 99 percent of the time a bad thing. Wouldn't make much sense of black dudes started popping up in Cadia and racial diversity posters were on every wall. Ret cons are a bad thing to good lore. Look at Ollanus, what makes Cadia so bad that it needs a change?

Why would having "black dudes start popping up in Cadia" matter so much to you? You can't say "because it's change" because this kind of change happens all the time in 40k, and it makes no sense to single out this one particular thing.

Because our entire premise for suggesting female options and options for other races are that they currently exist in the lore. NOT that we're adding things that could exist but don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


What is your purpose in infiltrating?

To kill the commander or sabotage an important installation. A bomb inside a dog that looks and acts friendly is going to bypass all defences and eliminate the target due to humans perceiving no threat.

What is the humans' defence to detect infiltration?

Sniffer dogs that bark to alert humans to the robot. A robot that looks like a dog is good at bypassing these since dogs bark at other dogs too, resulting what humans believe is a false positive.

What if the humans figure out you're using dog robots instead of humans?

Then they cannot trust any dog whatsoever and kill many anti-infiltration dogs by accident on the perception of a threat. Humans are also very fond of dogs, resulting in the likelihood they will not actually kill a dog just in case.

What if you just want to slaughter everyone?

Replace standard small bomb with a thermobaric device. Humans live in underground tunnels, there will not even be DNA left.

Now, in WHAT way is a human-shaped robot better than a dog-shaped robot, again?

It can infiltrate the 80's, find clothes that fit, purchase a gun, knock on doors, enter a club etc. Duh.

Terminators were not created or designed for time travel assassination.

Why would sniffer dogs not protect against them? You can train a dog not to bark at other dogs,.

I guess. But the humans would still be more likely to assume their dog simply forgot their training for a moment.

Why are we talking about this?

We shouldn't be. I brought it up tangentially and people demanded further explanation.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Changing the fluff is 99 percent of the time a bad thing. Wouldn't make much sense of black dudes started popping up in Cadia and racial diversity posters were on every wall. Ret cons are a bad thing to good lore. Look at Ollanus, what makes Cadia so bad that it needs a change?

Why would having "black dudes start popping up in Cadia" matter so much to you? You can't say "because it's change" because this kind of change happens all the time in 40k, and it makes no sense to single out this one particular thing.

Because our entire premise for suggesting female options and options for other races are that they currently exist in the lore. NOT that we're adding things that could exist but don't.

to be fair, the SM thing does actually have fluff behind a gender restriction, while the supposition about the ethnic homogeneity of Cadia seems to be based in inference but no actual fluff.

It's also conceivable that the various ethnicities homgenized on a united Terra before the start of humanity's first expansion, to the point where there's isn't really white, black, Asian etc.. and simply "human."

Once isolated into different colonies, the prevailing planetary conditions may then start to cause differentiation once more, but traits can be bred in or out in a matter of a few generations, evolution takes a little longer.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Changing the fluff is 99 percent of the time a bad thing. Wouldn't make much sense of black dudes started popping up in Cadia and racial diversity posters were on every wall. Ret cons are a bad thing to good lore. Look at Ollanus, what makes Cadia so bad that it needs a change?

Why would having "black dudes start popping up in Cadia" matter so much to you? You can't say "because it's change" because this kind of change happens all the time in 40k, and it makes no sense to single out this one particular thing.

Because our entire premise for suggesting female options and options for other races are that they currently exist in the lore. NOT that we're adding things that could exist but don't.

to be fair, the SM thing does actually have fluff behind a gender restriction, while the supposition about the ethnic homogeneity of Cadia seems to be based in inference but no actual fluff.

There is actually reason behind it though.

The original IG lines were all or mostly fairly uniform in their appearance and thematics. It suggests that a planet's population was almost entirely one human archetype or another. And since all the official art for Cadians has shown them as white without exception, we can conclude that non-white Cadians are a significant rarity.

It may boil down to GW having not actually created many non-white anythings, but when your argument is based on things that currently exist in the lore not being represented, you can't in all honesty start inventing lore to support the inclusion of things which haven't been shown before. You CAN say that Cadian models not being painted as white and having non-white bitz made available falls within the lore, because the Cadian kit represents forces from many worlds, many of which are likely not white. You would also be completely within the lore to suggest that there are Cadian regiments which, through the standard practices the IG uses for reinforcements, include any degree of non-white models. Both of those things are supported fully by the lore that exists, and are still completely legitimate justifications for providing non-white Cadian bits and models, which is what people want.

My point is ultimately that if you shouldn't invent lore in order to argue for something that doesn't even need new lore to justify to begin with. And doing so is ESPECIALLY wrong when your primary argument is that these things ALREADY exist in the lore and thus deserve to be represented on the tabletop.

 Pouncey wrote:


Terminators were not created or designed for time travel assassination.

I didn't expect you to take that seriously. But in reluctant response. . .

A: Terminators weren't created for suicide bombing either.

B: In a wasteland of detritus and equipment designed for use by humans, having a human form becomes useful in a reverse-ergonomic sort of way. Having a dog form, you might get stumped by a slightly more complicated than normal door. Or just a high shelf, for that matter.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's also conceivable that the various ethnicities homgenized on a united Terra before the start of humanity's first expansion, to the point where there's isn't really white, black, Asian etc.. and simply "human."

Once isolated into different colonies, the prevailing planetary conditions may then start to cause differentiation once more, but traits can be bred in or out in a matter of a few generations, evolution takes a little longer.

Tallarns are Middle Eastern, and Salamanders used to be black. I don't mean charcoal black, but like, the human race black.

There are still different races in humanity in the WH40k lore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:


Terminators were not created or designed for time travel assassination.

I didn't expect you to take that seriously. But in reluctant response. . .

A: Terminators weren't created for suicide bombing either.

They could've been if Skynet invented them. A thermobaric weapon is going to clear out a human tunnel just as well as a giant laser rifle

B: In a wasteland of detritus and equipment designed for use by humans, having a human form becomes useful in a reverse-ergonomic sort of way. Having a dog form, you might get stumped by a slightly more complicated than normal door. Or just a high shelf, for that matter.

Terminators didn't know where humans hid, and had to follow them back to their homes to find out where they were. A friendly robot dog following a trusting human can just wait for their human to open the door, since the terminators' job is to find out where humans live so they have to wait for the humans to lead them places anyways.

Or hell, option 2. Have the robot dog find out where the humans live, have it report their location and run away if barked at. Then fire a LARGE thermobaric weapon into that tunnel and make damned sure they're ALL dead.

Salamanders are black as a result of their gene seed, like Space Wolves growing canines and Blood Angels craving blood.

Tallarn are Middle Eastern derived aesthetically, yes, but I defy you to definitively call them genetically middle eastern based on their models, and there's nothing in the lore saying that the population of Tallarn is specifically descended from the Arabian countries of Earth afaik. A Caucasian person growing up in a desert environment and wearing desert gear would look an awful lot like a Tallarn guardsman.

Especially on a tiny model.