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 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Locally, the group playing KoW is small - yet it is still larger than the number playing AoS - so, yeah....

Being smaller than KoW's local base is a worse thing.

The Auld Grump - 9th Age is also being played more than AoS....

I'm sure there are parts of the world where locally KoW is successful. This doesn't mean much in the wider scheme of things though as KoW's playerbase globally remains small, at least as far as I can tell.

Your argument that GW is losing sales from KoW players cuts both ways as it is unlikely AoS players would be using Mantic kits for AoS due to differences in style and scale, whereas the Mantic kits are more similar to the old WHFB armies.

motski wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Locally, the group playing KoW is small - yet it is still larger than the number playing AoS - so, yeah....

Being smaller than KoW's local base is a worse thing.

The Auld Grump - 9th Age is also being played more than AoS....

I'm sure there are parts of the world where locally KoW is successful. This doesn't mean much in the wider scheme of things though as KoW's playerbase globally remains small, at least as far as I can tell.

Your argument that GW is losing sales from KoW players cuts both ways as it is unlikely AoS players would be using Mantic kits for AoS due to differences in style and scale, whereas the Mantic kits are more similar to the old WHFB armies.

The Mantic army deals are doing good business in my area - especially with new players or guys starting new armies. You can have a very good sized army for a hundred Euro. An old WFB army will set a person back multiples of that. This has been a boon locally as many now rock multiple armies - allowing more diversity and more ability to lend armies to fresh blood.

Of course we've alllowed proxying for years around here - if not GW prices would have destroyed new player capture and slowly killed the fantasy scene many moons ago. So players using non-system specific fantasy miniatures is common in any case.

If I were to resurrect my vampire counts army I'd definitely go to mantic for stuff over GW.

motski wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Locally, the group playing KoW is small - yet it is still larger than the number playing AoS - so, yeah....

Being smaller than KoW's local base is a worse thing.

The Auld Grump - 9th Age is also being played more than AoS....

I'm sure there are parts of the world where locally KoW is successful. This doesn't mean much in the wider scheme of things though as KoW's playerbase globally remains small, at least as far as I can tell.

Your argument that GW is losing sales from KoW players cuts both ways as it is unlikely AoS players would be using Mantic kits for AoS due to differences in style and scale, whereas the Mantic kits are more similar to the old WHFB armies.

Whats any of this got to do with why players demonise GW?

I'm tweaking my Vampire Counts army for Kings of War as an ongoing project, and I find myself at a sticking point.

To keep things aesthetically homogeneous, I'd like to get 10 more GW ghouls and 20-40 more GW skeletons...but even via an internet discounter, the prices are laughable compared to getting Mantic stuff via the FLGS. I could get an entire Mantic starter army box for less than 4 troop boxes of 10 models each from GW discounters!

I've already sold off 3 boxes of GW grave guard (30 models) at 1/2 retail on ebay to cover the cost of 2 Mantic revenant regiments (40 models).

That is a dilemma. I would like to think a common paint scheme and basing scheme might make up for the difference in aesthetic, but it probably won't be quite enough.

What about adding the non GW stuff as back rankers?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

motski wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Locally, the group playing KoW is small - yet it is still larger than the number playing AoS - so, yeah....

Being smaller than KoW's local base is a worse thing.

The Auld Grump - 9th Age is also being played more than AoS....

I'm sure there are parts of the world where locally KoW is successful. This doesn't mean much in the wider scheme of things though as KoW's playerbase globally remains small, at least as far as I can tell.

Your argument that GW is losing sales from KoW players cuts both ways as it is unlikely AoS players would be using Mantic kits for AoS due to differences in style and scale, whereas the Mantic kits are more similar to the old WHFB armies.

Whats any of this got to do with why players demonise GW?

It has to do with how white knights will leap upon their horses to defend the company from the evil haters that point out GW's myriad flaws.

Both 9th Age and Kings of War are being played locally because GW's fantasy rules have, for several years and multiple iterations... sucked

That either 9th Age or Kings of War should be selling better than Warhammer means that in spite of their market dominance, GW is failing in the fantasy market - and largely because they have done a rather poor job of writing rules for the past decade or so.

At this point in time, not even their miniatures are selling better than those of Mantic for fantasy - on a local level, at least. Reaper, likewise, is doing a better job of selling to local players.

GW's changing the scale and style of the miniatures has meant that even folks that play armies that weren't dropped down the jakes by GW are still not buying the latest GW miniatures for their armies.

But those same players were willing to go digging online to find copies of Island of Blood - for the minis, and not the rules.

40K has also fallen to a back burner in the local groups - though it seems more likely that game could be saved by a better edition. Most players have kept their old armies, even if they are currently not playing the game. (I was an exception - when I realized that I had not played 40K for two entire editions, off it went to the magical land of eBay.)

But 40K is likewise suffering because of a poorly considered and poorly executed edition.

The Auld Grump

The bad rules point can't be hammered home enough. The war gaming world outside Games Workshop right now is amazing. Frostgrave and Kings of War have simple, elegant systems that still allow for emergent complexity in tactical play. Deadzone 2 isn't quite as solid, but its still a very fun, tense, and lethal little sci-fi skirmish game. Nevermind other out-of-genre stuff, like Strange Aeons for investigators-vs-the-Mythos campaign games or This is Not a Test for Fallout-meets-Gamma-World post apocalypse.

I look at the rare game of 40K being played at the local store nowadays, and wonder why anyone would put up with that bloated stinker of a ruleset. I myself stopped playing over 4 years ago, after a "let's try out the new 6th edition" tournament. I was in the middle of a game between my Eldar and some stranger's Necrons and realized, "I would have had a lot more fun this afternoon if I'd stayed at home and watched TV by myself. That's how bad this game has gotten."

As I stated upthread, I'm still looking for some sci-fi ruleset that would let me run my Eldar in a platoon scale similar to 2e 40K and actually have fun doing so. I'm not sure that Mantic's Warpath will be that game. I'm going to give my search another month or three before 15 years of hobby collecting and painting goes on eBay. (This is a not so subtle hint that I'm open to suggestions.)

 Psychopomp wrote:

The bad rules point can't be hammered home enough. The war gaming world outside Games Workshop right now is amazing. Frostgrave and Kings of War have simple, elegant systems that still allow for emergent complexity in tactical play. Deadzone 2 isn't quite as solid, but its still a very fun, tense, and lethal little sci-fi skirmish game. Nevermind other out-of-genre stuff, like Strange Aeons for investigators-vs-the-Mythos campaign games or This is Not a Test for Fallout-meets-Gamma-World post apocalypse.

I look at the rare game of 40K being played at the local store nowadays, and wonder why anyone would put up with that bloated stinker of a ruleset. I myself stopped playing over 4 years ago, after a "let's try out the new 6th edition" tournament. I was in the middle of a game between my Eldar and some stranger's Necrons and realized, "I would have had a lot more fun this afternoon if I'd stayed at home and watched TV by myself. That's how bad this game has gotten."

As I stated upthread, I'm still looking for some sci-fi ruleset that would let me run my Eldar in a platoon scale similar to 2e 40K and actually have fun doing so. I'm not sure that Mantic's Warpath will be that game. I'm going to give my search another month or three before 15 years of hobby collecting and painting goes on eBay. (This is a not so subtle hint that I'm open to suggestions.)

Go retro. Use social media to find people that are in the same mindset as you, and start a gaming club. If the boards are to be believed, then 2nd Ed. was a beloved renaissance of gaming where nobody was unhappy. I find it baffling that you can't Oldhammer with other people. I play 3rd E. 40K and 6th Ed. WFB myself and I've never been happier.

 Psychopomp wrote:

As I stated upthread, I'm still looking for some sci-fi ruleset that would let me run my Eldar in a platoon scale similar to 2e 40K and actually have fun doing so. I'm not sure that Mantic's Warpath will be that game. I'm going to give my search another month or three before 15 years of hobby collecting and painting goes on eBay. (This is a not so subtle hint that I'm open to suggestions.)

One Page 40k? The rules in small font might fit on a page, but the document is about 20 pages or so once you add in the army lists. And there's some supplemental stuff like an 11 page beginning guide. A default game is 750 points and 5 guardians are 115, so it should be just about right in terms of what the game is designed to handle.

https://onepagerules.wordpress.com/portfolio/one-page-40k/

 Just Tony wrote:
Go retro. Use social media to find people that are in the same mindset as you, and start a gaming club. If the boards are to be believed, then 2nd Ed. was a beloved renaissance of gaming where nobody was unhappy. I find it baffling that you can't Oldhammer with other people. I play 3rd E. 40K and 6th Ed. WFB myself and I've never been happier.

I don't think anyone is crazy enough to say 2nd edition was perfect and no one was unhappy. 2nd ed. had tons of balance issues and in some areas the rules were a bit overly complicated.

The thing I like about 2nd is even though the armies were unbalanced, the core rules were a better basis for a game than 3rd ed onwards.

I've never had much luck trying to play Oldhammer. You can usually find a few people willing to play it but it gets boring playing with the same few people with the same few armies after a short while. One of the main things 40k has going for it is its popularity, which means it's easy to find opponents and you often get fresh blood and new armies in your local group.

If you can manage a decent sized group playing previous editions then good for you, it's never really worked for me.

I should have specified that I'm looking for something that doesn't use any iteration of the 40K system. It's old hat, and the best it's ever done for me was, "It's okay, I guess, but it's all anyone plays these days..." Luckily those days are gone. I'd like something with fresh thinking and simple rule design. (And 40K 2e is neither of those.)

 frozenwastes wrote:
That is a dilemma. I would like to think a common paint scheme and basing scheme might make up for the difference in aesthetic, but it probably won't be quite enough.

What about adding the non GW stuff as back rankers?

Add them in with the 40mm bases. Mix them in together...

The paint scheme helps, but it is the size that does it. the Mantic ones are a head or so shorter them the GW stuff. Not bad, but in a larger picture, a zombie is a zombie.

On my end, I added in a Reaper Necromancer, and I use the figures on both ends of the street. Some with Mordhiem, some with KOW, some with Dungeon Saga. (I am slowly growing on Dungeon Saga, and adding in the Mantic Kickstarter army and snacks in along with the stuff from the Dungeon Master pledge level.

A good game, and it is really worth it to use the Mantic for the Warhammer Fantasy lore/ realm. "Mantica" never really sold it for me, but then again, I am one of those old dogs that cut his teeth with the old school Hogshead RPG.

 Psychopomp wrote:
I should have specified that I'm looking for something that doesn't use any iteration of the 40K system. It's old hat, and the best it's ever done for me was, "It's okay, I guess, but it's all anyone plays these days..." Luckily those days are gone. I'd like something with fresh thinking and simple rule design. (And 40K 2e is neither of those.)

Rogue Stars published by Osprey could be your thing if you want small scale skirmish.

Not sure if there a direct crossover game that would mimic the forces you already have - saying that I'm a big fan of proxying miniatures so who really cares? Use your stuff in Gates of Antares

If you do sell your old collection make sure to look at alternative scales as well. 6-10mm science-fiction gaming is great allowing all types of combined arms fun in a scale that such things actually work. 28mm breaks down in my opinion once you go much beyond infantry heavy company versus company engagements. Ideally 28mm should be skirmish only or scaled and abstracted like in stuff like KoW or the old WFB.

niall78 wrote:
6-10mm science-fiction gaming is great allowing all types of combined arms fun in a scale that such things actually work. 28mm breaks down in my opinion once you go much beyond infantry heavy company versus company engagements. Ideally 28mm should be skirmish only or scaled and abstracted like in stuff like KoW or the old WFB.

I'm very much agreed with you there. One of my grievances with what GW is trying to do with 40K these days is that I really enjoyed it more when they did this scale of conflict with Epic instead. That's why I'm looking for a company-sized game for my 28mm stuff, or I'm divesting myself of it and reinvesting the proceeds into minis for multiple games with more rational pricing and scale schemes.

40k does play very well at 1000-1500 points with lots of terrain in my experience. A parking lot of tanks on a 6' x 4' table doesn't play good or look good. Super Heavies and Flyers just have no place in a regular game.

It mystifies me why people view 1850+ points on the small tables as a sensible thing.

Super-heavies/Gargantuan and formations have hurt my opinion of 40k drastically in the last year or so.

Way back in 2nd edition we had hero hammer where one figure was way more impactful than even groups of others. GW might sell that metal blister for $10-15.

Now we have super heavies where one figure is way more impactful than even groups of others. GW might sell that plastic kit for $100.

Seems like the natural progression of bloating the game to me.

I wouldn't say I 'demonize' GW.
They're a company. They make a few good things. They make a lot of gak. They make a lot of mistakes. Personally, they can do what they want. It's their money and their company.

What irritates me more than anything GW do, are the GW-ophiles. The people that believe that everything GW produce is fantastic. Those that believe everything else is trash. They're what make GW worth demonzing. Those that believe GW plastics are the only decent thing going. That GW invented the whole hhhobby. That any figure made by a different company is always "90's style". etc.

I've had some great times with GW games in the past (and I started on my first WHFB games in 1984 and played rather a lot of their stuff since).

GW finally died for me when the End Times came out with those Limited Edition rule books that I wasn't quick enough to get. So, I stopped bothering. Less than a year later, Warhammer fantasy really did die.
40k had already died for me when giant plastic flyers came into the game.

I still subscribe to WD, I have done for a long time, in fact I've been buying WD since issue 91 dated July 1987.

However, there is a whole world of miniature wargames out there that are far better than anything GW make... Bolt Action, Frostgrave, Kings of War, Maelstrom's Edge, Deadzone, Saga, Gates of Antares, Iron Cross, Blood Eagle, Open Combat, Zombicide, Tanks, X-Wing. And I'm sure there's a million more that I've yet to discover.

GW used to be another decent figure manufacturer. Now they've gone so mad in protecting their own IP, their figures are so out of scale, or covered in ridiculous iconography that they are more or less unusable in any other game. That's their loss of sales.

I think the title should be "Why do so many players pity GW".

My reasons:
WFB:
What they did with it(My first TT-game!)
The last Dark Elves armybook.

40k:
Powercreep.
Random-tables of randomnish randomness(Deamons and other...).....
Basicly killing my beloved Word Bearers.
More Powercreep.
Killing my Tyranid-Midbug-swarm....
Even more Powercreep.
What they did with the WD.
Ultramarines(Movie).
What they did with the AdMech-codices.
Spamming of detachments, metadetachments and formations instead of fixing stuff....

AoS:
Because it replaced my first TT-system and basicly killed off fantasy in general here for now.

Misc:
Paintpots.
Prices.

ShockTroopahs wrote:
I can't really see what the problem is with them. I just started playing Warhammer

Just answered your own question.

You have no history with them.

I can only speak as a 21 year veteran, but here are some of the reasons I have a love hate relationship:

1. Prices are silly, especially when im some cases you are paying premium prices for models that haven't been updated in many, many years
2. I've had whole armies that I have spent hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours hobbying eliminated from the game
3. Likewise all that time and money spent on specialist games that have come and gone due to dropped support
4. The killing of Games Days and White Dwarf (somewhat rectified)
5. The bs of having to deal directly with them as a former LGS owner
6: utter neglect of certain armies in favor of "moar speeez marines".
7. Questionable attempts to balance game in a timely fashion
8. Lack of community interaction (getting better recently)
9. Did I mention prices? Their paints and hobby tools are criminally overpriced and while thankfully alternatives exist the fact they have the Gaul
To ask what they do for say spray paint is mind numbing.

Just my take. Your mileage may vary...

 Ankhalagon wrote:
My reasons:

40k:

Ultramarines(Movie).

Ok, I think you win Internet of the Day.

 notprop wrote:
40k does play very well at 1000-1500 points with lots of terrain in my experience. A parking lot of tanks on a 6' x 4' table doesn't play good or look good. Super Heavies and Flyers just have no place in a regular game.

It mystifies me why people view 1850+ points on the small tables as a sensible thing.

I really think 40K as it currently stands needs tables bigger than a standard 6x4. It's brilliant on 12x6.
Conversely, current 40K would play brilliantly in 10-15mm on a 6x4.

Herzlos wrote:

 notprop wrote:
40k does play very well at 1000-1500 points with lots of terrain in my experience. A parking lot of tanks on a 6' x 4' table doesn't play good or look good. Super Heavies and Flyers just have no place in a regular game.

It mystifies me why people view 1850+ points on the small tables as a sensible thing.

I really think 40K as it currently stands needs tables bigger than a standard 6x4. It's brilliant on 12x6.
Conversely, current 40K would play brilliantly in 10-15mm on a 6x4.

This is my issue with 40k as a game these days. GW want it to be Epic in 28mm. Even at 1500pts, there's a lot more models on the table these days. Some armies have jam packed deployment zones. There's a few issues with that. First is table size, as you pointed out. Most people can barely fit twenty square feet of table in whatever room they're playing in, let alone, as you suggested, over seventy square feet of gaming table. Second is the prices, which I really just don't want to get into.

Third is the rules, and I'm not talking about writing tight rules. I'm talking about pushing a game where there's individual wound allocation per model, characters with individual customiseable wargear and their own set of wounds, which has its own complexities when attached to a unit. A game where they want you to use supersonic aircraft and squadrons of battle tanks. A game where they want you to use building sized walking war machines and tanks the size of an apartment block. The scale of the game is just all over the place, and the rules don't adequately cover any of them.

I'm sure people enjoy 40k for that very reason these days, and I remember back when I was in high school with my second edition Tyranids looking at the Armorcast Excocrines and Malefactors and Dactylis' and thinking 'man 40k would be awesome with Epic units in it'. The issue there is that was the mind of a 14 year old boy who wanted all the huge awesome things, not a company making what is meant to be a competitive wargame.

I get the same feeling of 40k 28 mm epic is what they want.. I do enjoy a game of Apocalypse every once in a while.. but I like just standard 40k games to, without giant stompy stuff everywhere.
Games Workshop has a great Intellectual property with images and backgrounds that can move product. As we seen in the hands of Fantasy Flight games if done right product flies off the shelves.
But most of the time they are their worst enemy on pricing and bundling.. yes they are getting better but why is there even a topic like this if there was no problem...

Plus I know a lot of old timers complain about Age of Sigmar, but I think if you look at the images from the last tournament at Warhammer world it shows most of the armies played were ones that
just came out recently and specifically made for the new version of the game.. Why did they kill off warhammer??... so you would need to buy all new armies... Just like the Games Workshop Accountants want..

Wouldn't surprise me at all if something happens like Age of Sigmar to 40k in the next few years to spur new sales... Sorry .. We are going true scale on Marines.. so you need to rebuy your whole army
And we are changes all the other races... but here is a pdf if you want to use your old forces..

 -Loki- wrote:


Third is the rules, and I'm not talking about writing tight rules. I'm talking about pushing a game where there's individual wound allocation per model, characters with individual customiseable wargear and their own set of wounds, which has its own complexities when attached to a unit. A game where they want you to use supersonic aircraft and squadrons of battle tanks. A game where they want you to use building sized walking war machines and tanks the size of an apartment block. The scale of the game is just all over the place, and the rules don't adequately cover any of them.

I'm sure people enjoy 40k for that very reason these days, and I remember back when I was in high school with my second edition Tyranids looking at the Armorcast Excocrines and Malefactors and Dactylis' and thinking 'man 40k would be awesome with Epic units in it'. The issue there is that was the mind of a 14 year old boy who wanted all the huge awesome things, not a company making what is meant to be a competitive wargame.

News - it's never been or meant to have been a competitive wargame.

-Loki- wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 notprop wrote:
40k does play very well at 1000-1500 points with lots of terrain in my experience. A parking lot of tanks on a 6' x 4' table doesn't play good or look good. Super Heavies and Flyers just have no place in a regular game.

It mystifies me why people view 1850+ points on the small tables as a sensible thing.

I really think 40K as it currently stands needs tables bigger than a standard 6x4. It's brilliant on 12x6.
Conversely, current 40K would play brilliantly in 10-15mm on a 6x4.

This is my issue with 40k as a game these days. GW want it to be Epic in 28mm. Even at 1500pts, there's a lot more models on the table these days. Some armies have jam packed deployment zones. There's a few issues with that. First is table size, as you pointed out. Most people can barely fit twenty square feet of table in whatever room they're playing in, let alone, as you suggested, over seventy square feet of gaming table. Second is the prices, which I really just don't want to get into.

Third is the rules, and I'm not talking about writing tight rules. I'm talking about pushing a game where there's individual wound allocation per model, characters with individual customiseable wargear and their own set of wounds, which has its own complexities when attached to a unit. A game where they want you to use supersonic aircraft and squadrons of battle tanks. A game where they want you to use building sized walking war machines and tanks the size of an apartment block. The scale of the game is just all over the place, and the rules don't adequately cover any of them.

I'm sure people enjoy 40k for that very reason these days, and I remember back when I was in high school with my second edition Tyranids looking at the Armorcast Excocrines and Malefactors and Dactylis' and thinking 'man 40k would be awesome with Epic units in it'. The issue there is that was the mind of a 14 year old boy who wanted all the huge awesome things, not a company making what is meant to be a competitive wargame.

The thing I've found about big units in 40k and WHFB is that once they are common they are no longer cool.

When I first bought a Stegadon for my Lizardmen back in 5th edition, it was so cool, a big lumbering dinosaur surrounded by smaller infantry. Or my Giant in my Goblin army, the thing that makes it cool isn't that it's 7" tall, it's that it's surrounded by a bunch of Goblins that are only 1" tall....



That's why I've always supported hard limits on big models, they shouldn't be more than 20-25% of the entire army, you shouldn't be taking more than 1 in any reasonable sized game and in smaller games they shouldn't exist at all. So that when you DO take one, it's a "wow, that's cool!" moment.

As soon as they become standard fare they lose their appeal to me, and now I walk in to a GW and see a game being played with lots of big things and it just looks like a handful of toddlers brawling in a playpen with a baby's crib mobile with toy planes because all the ranges are too short for such large monsters and flyers

Wargames always have compressed ranges, but when you start putting Imperial Knights and Baneblades and Wraithknights in to a 28mm game it becomes stupidly compressed.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:News - it's never been or meant to have been a competitive wargame.

Way to grab on to the most insignificant point that Loki made and run with it, good job

/sarcasm

40k is a game where 2 players build armies to play against each other and 1 player wins. It is a competitive game. It is not a cooperative game. AoS tried to sit on the fence between competitive and cooperative and even there they realised without a game master to guide, it still ends up being competitive and so people lose interest when they don't have things like points values to build their armies to roughly equivalent levels.

I've been a GW fan for 30 years or so.

The early frustrations were the price rises that paced right along with my allowance increases. "Finally an allowance raise, crap GW raised their prices again! Or removed a mini from the blister for the same price!". That didn't make me hate GW, it annoyed me greatly! They continued that practice for 30 years...

What makes folks hate GW is an often extremely predatory business practice and going directions certain fans don't like. They've had great periods, I think we're in a great period again after some internal changes...

I don't really care for the haters of any product/company, they are usually just dayflies that got on, bought some models, rage a bit and quit...

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:


Third is the rules, and I'm not talking about writing tight rules. I'm talking about pushing a game where there's individual wound allocation per model, characters with individual customiseable wargear and their own set of wounds, which has its own complexities when attached to a unit. A game where they want you to use supersonic aircraft and squadrons of battle tanks. A game where they want you to use building sized walking war machines and tanks the size of an apartment block. The scale of the game is just all over the place, and the rules don't adequately cover any of them.

I'm sure people enjoy 40k for that very reason these days, and I remember back when I was in high school with my second edition Tyranids looking at the Armorcast Excocrines and Malefactors and Dactylis' and thinking 'man 40k would be awesome with Epic units in it'. The issue there is that was the mind of a 14 year old boy who wanted all the huge awesome things, not a company making what is meant to be a competitive wargame.

News - it's never been or meant to have been a competitive wargame.

Apart from all the time from 3rd-5th when it was?

I played for 20 years I'm certainly no dayfly, I've played multiple armies across multiple editions and still own every specialist game.

What made me leave was the utter disrespect they showered onto their customers treating us not as people but wallets to be emptied with increasingly shoddy products.

Rereleasing the knight codex after a year, 7th ed coming out with next to no changes and fixing zero problems, and then killing off wfb for aos not only broke the camels back but slaughtered it and used the bones for glue.

I didn't change GW did they brought this hate on themselves over years and now reap what they so happily sowed.