Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So i hear there has been some debate with the iron hands rules. Especially their chapter tactics.
So i hoped you guys could clear things up!

Do the iron hands vehicles get any bonuses? Like for example do they get IWND like their chapter tactics say?
If they dont, what bonuses do they get? If any?

Iron Hands vehicles which have the chapter tactics rule get the bonus. Others don't.

However the draft FAQ says the opposite.

I wouldn't get too excited since there have been a few blunders in there (see apothecary) but you might be happy when the finalized FAQ is released.

Scott-S6 is right - Not all Iron Hands vehicles get the bonuses because not all vehicles have the Chapter Tactics Special Rule.

But: Like with many rules that don't make sense because of lack or clarity or simple stupidity of the rule, it's better to house-rule it. So even though not all vehicles get bonuses from Chapter Tactics (like IWND) for Iron Hands, it makes sense to house-rule it such that they do.

I didn't know they already did an FAQ.
Where can I find it?

Chapter tactics? No, just dreads outside the draft faqs.

An Iron Hands detachment? Yes, those have nothing to do with chapter tactics.

Ok thanks kommissar kel!
Just wondering, how do you find out when then finalise the FAQ?

Their Facebook page may let us know.

I am sure there will be a big announcement on GW's site.

Finally every forum and blog will definitely have at least 1 thread/article about it.

Beautiful! Cheers mate!

Yeah, if you have Angels of Death it says all vehicles in an Iron Hands detachment have IWND. And if any are within 6" of the Ironstone on someone they pass the roll on a 4+! Good stuff.

Malathrim wrote:
Yeah, if you have Angels of Death it says all vehicles in an Iron Hands detachment have IWND. And if any are within 6" of the Ironstone on someone they pass the roll on a 4+! Good stuff.

No, it says "All Iron Hands characters and vehicles", not "All Iron Hands characters, and vehicles". Only Iron Hands vehicles (=which means they have to have Chapter Tactics(Iron Hands)) gain IWND.

The FAQ changes that for Iron Hands, not AoD.

AoD did change that for everyone.

Those rules exist outside the Chapter tactics rules. Saying that "only models with chapter tactics(iron hands) are iron hands models because that is what the chapter tactics rule says" is like saying that a heavy bolter counts as a ccw because that is what the pistol rules say.

The chapter tactics rules have exactly as much effect on the rules for an iron hands detachment(or imp fists, or whichever chapter detachment) as the pistol rules have on heavy weapons.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
AoD did change that for everyone.

Those rules exist outside the Chapter tactics rules. Saying that "only models with chapter tactics(iron hands) are iron hands models because that is what the chapter tactics rule says" is like saying that a heavy bolter counts as a ccw because that is what the pistol rules say.

The chapter tactics rules have exactly as much effect on the rules for an iron hands detachment(or imp fists, or whichever chapter detachment) as the pistol rules have on heavy weapons.

Oh, so your argument is that by reprinting what the Chapter Tactics do for the mentioned Chapters in Aod the rules somehow changed and Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Salamanders and Raven Guard vehicles w/o Chapter Tactics can now benefit from them? e.g. Shrouded on turn 1 for RG?
Angels of Death is not a standalone book. It only works WITH the actual codex, just like the codex only works with the BRB. There is nothing in AoD that overrides the definition of what an e.g. Iron Hands model is, so the definition found in the codex is still valid. Just like the definition of what a model is comes from the BRB and is not provided in the codex or the supplement.

The FAQs pretty much confirm that the IH chapter tactics is worded incorrectly as opposed to all the other ones and goes an extra mile of effort to allow CTs to work for Iron Hands vehicles exclusively. That should be a hint.

Um, yes. It is reprinted content of the rules granted to all models in the chapter detachment.

The models with chapter tactics already had those rules as the benefits of their chapter tactics.

The definition in the codex for what an Iron Hands model is for the purposes of chapter tactics again has no effect on rules outside of Chapter Tactics.

Or are you going to claim that a Cadian Detachment cannot have a Cadian Warlord and therefore roll on the Cadian Warlord traits table because no Cadian units have the Chapter Tactics rule?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Um, yes. It is reprinted content of the rules granted to all models in the chapter detachment.

The models with chapter tactics already had those rules as the benefits of their chapter tactics.

The definition in the codex for what an Iron Hands model is for the purposes of chapter tactics again has no effect on rules outside of Chapter Tactics.

Or are you going to claim that a Cadian Detachment cannot have a Cadian Warlord and therefore roll on the Cadian Warlord traits table because no Cadian units have the Chapter Tactics rule?

Ah, OK - you're reading the rules as entirely separate from the Chapter Tactrics rule, that's a possible interpretation, granted. I'm not going to use it, but I can see why you'd read it that way. At least the draft FAQ clarifies the intention, so personally I'll stick with IH vehicles yes, anyone elses no - as long as the FAQ isn't final that's HIWPI of course.

as a sidenote: please stop adding these strawmen to your posts. My logical chain is "Angels of Death is based on the Codex: Space Marines which is based on the Core Rules. You cannot use AoD without either of the other two books, and as long as a rule isn't explicitly overwritten by AoD, the rule within C:SM is still in effect." Codex: Astra Militarum and the Supplement for Cadia are on a different "path": BRB -> Codex AM -> Cadia Supplement. Rules presented in C:AM are valid as long as nothing in the supplement overwrites it. Nothing to do with Codex: Space Marine.

Yes, you do use the Space Marine codex with the AOD supplement; this means that all models with the Chapter Tactics rules have the granted rules associated with those Chapter Tactics.

The Chapter Detachments(which is an internet short hand to reference all of the specific detachments for the individual non-Ultramarines detachments. Which, yes, the definition of each does require all models in said detachment with the Chapter Tactics rule to have that particular Chapter Tactics; but that is the only place that makes any reference to Chapter Tactics) grants a specific set of rules; some of those rules are reprints of the rules granted via Chapter Tactics, but those reprints are in no way associated with the Chapter Tactics Rule(and every model with Chapter Tactics already has those rules). This makes those rules independent of the Chapter Tactics Rule. They are stand alone rules.

As far as your claims that I was coming up with strawman arguments: those examples of rules not relevant to chapter tactics were just as relevant to chapter tactics as the rules granted by the chapter detachments.

And finally the draft FAQ only shows the intent that, yes, the rule does what it says it does.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As far as your claims that I was coming up with strawman arguments: those examples of rules not relevant to chapter tactics were just as relevant to chapter tactics as the rules granted by the chapter detachments.

Not at all the same, and claiming it is it why I'm calling it a strawman argument. Chapter Detachments - rules as written - grant the Benefits of their Chapters Chapter Tactics to all units in that detachment. That's why I think the intention here is for them to work the same as Chapter Tactics itself - they do the same, so they should(!) have the same limitations. So there is a link between Chapter Detachments and Chapter Tactics, which makes it unlike eg Voice of Command (a rule found in Codex: Astra Militarum) and Chapter Tactics. These two rules have nothing in common at all. That's the strawman - making it sound as if these two situations are the same and since one clearly isn't correct , the other one must be incorrect, too.

Well; the first example I gave was a heavy weapon receiving the Pistol's counts as ccw rule. While this is in the opposite direction, the 2 rules share a relationship as being ranged weapons. If the Chapter Tactics rule dictates what a "(chapter) model" is in that Chapter's detachment without any rules stating this to be the case, then any weapon type should also utilize the rules of other weapon types that are not directly contradictory.

The Second example I gave was even more related: A Cadian Warlord has access to the Cadian Warlord traits; this is part of the rules for a Cadian Detachment. This is the same as an Iron Hands warlord has access to the Iron Hands Warlord traits. Now, I understood that you could go directly to "An Iron Hands Warlord is a Warlord chosen with the Iron Hands Chapter Tactic because that is what the Chapter Tactics rules say". And, yes, that would be correct if Chapter Tactics Rules(Chapter models are those models with that chapter's Chapter Tactics) were in use for the benefits an Iron Hands Detachment receives. I had to use another Supplemental "X-Detachment" because only models with Chapter Tactics can be Warlords in Chapter Detachments and have access to the Chapter detachment warlord traits(the armored strike force allows a vehicle warlord, granting it a specific warlord trait). "X-detachments" in supplements have long ago established that vehicles, models, units, warlords, and indiviudual models(y) are referred to as X-y. So a raven guard detachment that has a special rule granted to raven guard models refers to all models in the raven guard detachment. It is only the Chapter Tactics Rule that states a Raven Guard model is a model with the rule Chapter Tactics (Raven Guard).

Okay so it sounds like there is still a large amount of debate around this. I feel like my group will probably end up house ruling this. One way or another!
Thanks for all your replies!

Well, no not entirely.

As to your specific question about an Iron Hands Detachment; the draft FAQ says yes the tanks have IWND as well without any room for further question.

It is just every other Chapter Detachment that is still debated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and outside of the Iron Hands Detachment; a regular iron hands list(not using AOD for what are effectively Clan Rakaan rules), the Tanks do not get IWND.

So, to recap:

AoD Iron Hands Detachment: tanks get it.

Pure Codex Space Marines Chapter Tactics: Dreadnaughts are the only vehicles that get it.