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 Dysartes wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
I've come to the conclusion that it is harder to get yourself over as a babyface than it is as a heel, especially in this cynical age!

It's often more obvious to be a prick than not be a prick - but in the case of WWE, I think their writing/presentation of babyfaces really doesn't help matters.

Indeed. Especially since WWE often try to get their faces over by having them act like overwritten pricks spouting catchphrases and getting a bad nickname bolted to them.



Survivor Series! I just couldn't get into it and I'm not a fan of the Survivor Series concept on the whole, so skipped through most of the show, which probably is the worst way of watching a wrestling ppv. I do like the elimination matches as a stipulation, but the brand supremacy thing is just beyond stupid (reminds me of online arguments between people who play 40k and people who play 30k.). Last year's SuSe was a bit more interesting due to NXT being thrown into the mix, so at least at some points there was someone to root for.

Anyway. Meh. I just wasn't in the mood, I suppose.

 Dysartes wrote:
I mean, look at RAW & SD at the moment - aside from Drew, The New Day and possibly Daniel Bryan, who would you say are well-presented babyfaces? Then look at the heel side of the equation...

Street Profits, Bianca Belair, Lucha House Party, Rey Mysterio & Dominik, Humberto Carillo, Jeff Hardy, Naomi, Nikki Cross, Matt Riddle, Apollo Crews

That's the best I can do based on looking over the current Raw and Smackdown rosters.

Well-presented trips up a few of them, to my mind...

- Lucha House Party - Last I saw them were doing some sort of mini-break-up angle, and tend to suffer from being Punching Bag #4 in a tag feud.
- Humberto Carillo - Been off-screen for some time, and I can't recall the last match he won. Definitely shown to be a babyface, but currently not a competent one.
- Naomi - Definitely a face, but where is she?

I'll give you the Steet Profits, Rey/Dominik, Jeff and Apollo - after last night, I'm not sure whether Nikki is meant to be face or tweener.

Mr Riddle may well get back to "well-presented" with another big win or two, while I need to see how Bianca plays out on SD - the vignettes have been good, but she needs more matches (and more wins).

I'd agree that Cody and Moxley have been put over really well through their feuds and promos, I don't know how well AEW has done building other baby faces though.

Scorpio Sky was put over really well in the tag team tournament but has just been left on Dark since then.
Darby Allen is definitely over, almost in spite of Tony Khans booking it seems! I really liked his match with Sammy so we'll see how he goes as TNT champion.
Jungle Boy has got some good attention intermittently but nothing consistent.

Brian Pillman Jr could be great as a babyface if he got a push I reckon. Actually the booking on Dark seems to be a bit more logical and consistent than on Dynamite haha!

@Dysartes: Yeah, I feel the same about the three you mentioned. Dominik I think at this point is a great natural babyface. He's got the legacy, he's young, he seems to work well in the ring. Jeff Hardy will always be over. We could throw him out of a plane over Antarctica, before he hits the ground (after a swanton, presumably) penguins would have started making signs in support of him. I have no idea how they could salvage Apollo Crews. He's such a great athlete, he seems nice, and that's it really. Smiling, mega athletic guy. They should put him in a tag team with Shaemus or something. I don't know why, but somehow I think that putting someone in a tag team with Shaemus is a good idea to get them over. I don't even know what's going on with the Nikki Cross/Alexa Bliss angle any more. The former seems a little bit lost and relegated to being "Alexa's unremarkable friend". Alexa Bliss is good in any role.

@Kroem: Good point. I think the AEW audience is a little bit different, or at least is treated a bit different by AEW. They seem to take much more into account what (character) work the person's done elsewhere. I think that they could get Scorpio Sky out at any moment and turn him into a mega babyface. Darby Allin is very much over as a face (in spite of what I think of him! ), Jungle Boy is a natural babyface, Luchasaurus is mega over any time he shows up, Brian Pillman Jr. is a very good call too. Kris Statlander will be back in a bit, and back to being a much-becheer'd babyface, Hikaru Shida is a rock-solid face I think, Thunder Rosa could be an AEW face if she sticks with the company, Orange Cassidy is one of the top faces of the company right now I'd say. At this point Pac, the Lucha Brothers AND even Eddie Kingston are somewhat faces too, right? (not having watched last night's Dynamite yet. ). And just wait until international travel is up again and Yuka Sakazaki returns and finally gets that feud with that nasty, no-good, friend-shoving Riho!

I think AEW are pushing for another show or something (or am I confusing that with NXT? Or both?) I think, which should help shed some light on the less used people on the roster.


edit: Almost forgot about Hangman Page! In the Bullet Club he was quite 'meh', in AEW he's being built up to a great character. Between "I'm a f-ing horse!", splitting from The Elite, the whole Kenny Omega story, the drinking and the self-doubt it's impossible not to like him. Also: Is John Silver a heel at all? I can't even tell.

AEW have an agreement with TNT for a second show a week, running for one hour - at this point, I'm assuming no 2020 debut for it, for obvious reasons.

Night is unknown, but Tony Khan and Cody (I think) have both said it won't just be Dark moving from YouTube to TV.

 Sigur wrote:

@Kroem: Good point. I think the AEW audience is a little bit different, or at least is treated a bit different by AEW. They seem to take much more into account what (character) work the person's done elsewhere...

I think you're right, there is almost an expectation that people will be watching Dark, BTE, listening the their podcasts, following them on twitter etc.
As a person who primarily just watches Dynamite, things tend to pop out of nowhere!

The new programme from AEW sounds interesting, I wonder how they will differentiate it from Dynamite and Dark.

 Kroem wrote:

 Sigur wrote:

@Kroem: Good point. I think the AEW audience is a little bit different, or at least is treated a bit different by AEW. They seem to take much more into account what (character) work the person's done elsewhere...

I think you're right, there is almost an expectation that people will be watching Dark, BTE, listening the their podcasts, following them on twitter etc.
As a person who primarily just watches Dynamite, things tend to pop out of nowhere!
...

Yeah, that too. Funny thing is that I stopped watching BTE for a while when Dynamite started. Recently started watching again, but I mostly click through it, because I don't care all that much for the youtuber stuff and increasingly large chunks of the humour. Or Brian Cutler. Or the Dark Order being funny.

What I meant more was that AEW know their fans are familiar with the wrestlers outside of AEW. They know about Bullet Club, they know why Kenny Omega is set on the idea of being the best wrestler in the world, they know about how and why the FTW championship came to be, they know about NWA, AAA, TNA, etc.

Which of course makes sense, becuase it's a new company, so they have to rely on such stuff around them. WWE much more pretends to be a capsule in itself because they're the market leader.


I'm not sure i've seen a single episode of Dark to be honest. I think I watched one? Not sure. I hear it's good, but who can watch all that much wrestling each week? Even though I pretty much only watch Dynamite as a weekly show at this point.

Anyway, Abadon is back. Yay!

I'm looking forward to this week's Dynamite. It's good to have something to look forward to.


edit: Waitaminute, I hear Ricochet wrestled Retribution. And LOST. And got pinned by SLAPJACK? Wow. This is King Ricochet. 'member when he was the best flippydude in the world?

I just watched Dynamite. :O Crazy times!

 Sigur wrote:
I just watched Dynamite. :O Crazy times!

Spoiler:

Wooaoahahahahaahahaha. This IS interesting, isn't it. All of a sudden AEW turned it up a notch. Omega to Impact. Who waits there but the machine gun and doc gallows? They'll reform the golden age Bullet Club and be all tough bad guys and evil and all! Well, maybe not. BUT it's really, really interesting. Maybe they even want to be petty and 'show WWE how to do an inter-promotion invasion angle'. Either way - isn't wrestling fun?

I'm not sure how relevant IMPACT! is these days either, but they do have some strong talent over there, and by all accounts have been putting out a generally good product for a while now.

I'm looking forwards to the final of the Diamond Ring thing - I think the two finalists will make for an interesting match, even before you factor in the plotlines already in place around their respective "stables."

One thing I've heard being reporting this week is that AEW may well introduce a Trios championship next year - they've certainly got a fair few groups that can work that, while not taking away from the tag division. I do wonder if they'll wait for their second show to debut before bringing this into play, though - I can see them using tournament matches to decide the initial champions being used as a draw for the new show, for instance.

Of the various groups in AEW that could work a Trio Championship, who would y'all like to be the inaugural champions - and which do you think it'll be?

I'd like it to be Jurassic Express, or maybe Best Friends, but I think it's more likely to be either Death Triangle or the Kingston Family.

@bbb:


@Dysartes: Oohl interesting question. I'd like the inaugural trios champions to be SCU. I know that it's probably impossible, since they were the first tag champions if I remember correctly, and Daniels is more retired than not as far as I can see, but to me SCU are THE trio tag team of the past years. Not necessarily of the coming years, but of the past years. Apart from New Day, of course.However, your suggestions seem to be a lot more likely, so I think that Jurassic Express might be a good candidate for that. Death Triangle and Kingston&friends are good candidates as well, but I think they got too important things to do for a while for a tertiary title. And it keeps Jurassic Express away from the Tag Titles. That may sound horribly negative, but to clarify: I don't think that the trios title would benefit DT/KF's story much at this point. They don't need it, do they? And AEW got more interesting (to me) tag teams to compete for the tag titles. On the other hand it may well be time to give Jurassic Express a title, and that would be a good one I think.

Best Friends would be a good candidate as well of course, but somehow they seem to be busy having storylines all the time. It's really good to see how much they're being used.

 Dysartes wrote:
I'm not sure how relevant IMPACT! is these days either, but they do have some strong talent over there, and by all accounts have been putting out a generally good product for a while now.

I'm looking forwards to the final of the Diamond Ring thing - I think the two finalists will make for an interesting match, even before you factor in the plotlines already in place around their respective "stables."

One thing I've heard being reporting this week is that AEW may well introduce a Trios championship next year - they've certainly got a fair few groups that can work that, while not taking away from the tag division. I do wonder if they'll wait for their second show to debut before bringing this into play, though - I can see them using tournament matches to decide the initial champions being used as a draw for the new show, for instance.

Of the various groups in AEW that could work a Trio Championship, who would y'all like to be the inaugural champions - and which do you think it'll be?

I'd like it to be Jurassic Express, or maybe Best Friends, but I think it's more likely to be either Death Triangle or the Kingston Family.

I want it to be BEST FRIENDS (love that group!) but I think it will be Jurassic Express.

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

Just brainstorming possible Trios off the top of my head - feel free to fill in any I forget...

- Best Friends - got to give the people what they want...
- Jurassic Express
- Death Triangle
- Kingston Family
- Some combination of the Inner Circle
- Some combination of the Dark Order
- People Managed By Tully Blanchard
- Team Taz
- Nightmare Family (Cody, Dustin, QT Marshall)
- The Elite, maybe? (Kenny & The Bucks)
- Private Party & Matt Hardy (maybe - not sure with Matt changing character again)

@Alpharius: Absolutely agree about Luchasaurus. Everybody loves him. He is lovely. And Jungleboy can hold titles too of course.

@Dysartes: Yup, there's a ton of potential there. Except that I'd prefer not to see Kenny Omega anywhere near the Young Bucks for the next months to come. He's got heel champ things to do, and the Young Bucks kinda looks like they're back to being faces. Or rather 'the young bucks default mode'. Plus, the Gunn Club. Who are three dudes now. I'm sure they can find a third one for the Nightmare family in Cody's stead. Judging from the past year I think they wouldn't put him with the Nightmare family in a match. Love Dustin of course, but I'm having a hard time caring for this stable, no matter how many people they add.

I realise I left SCU off the list - not sure how I managed that one.

If Cody isn't in a singles program, I suspect he might not mind some trios matches - Nightmare Family could swap him out for Lee Johnson, but I suspect he'd need a spot of singles rehab first.

Fair point regarding Kenny & the Bucks - I didn't take enough Winter into account in my thinking, obviously

 Dysartes wrote:
...
Fair point regarding Kenny & the Bucks - I didn't take enough Winter into account in my thinking, obviously

 Alpharius wrote:

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

I'm stunned by this comment... I can't think of anyone less appropriate to hold a title.
I'll give you that he's got a great look, but I find his in-ring work awful and he cuts promos like Beast from XMen

Dynamite however was great this week; Sting doing a walk in was so cool and the Kenny Omega v Mox match was great!
MJF already causing strife in the Inner Circle is a great storyline too.

 Kroem wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

I'm stunned by this comment... I can't think of anyone less appropriate to hold a title.
I'll give you that he's got a great look, but I find his in-ring work awful and he cuts promos like Beast from XMen
...

I don't think that this ever stopped anybody from holding a title. I think he's fine in-ring, but so far we have rarely seen him in singles matches, so maybe he's not that good? I'll have to pay more attention next time. His promos are okay I think. Not a big fan of "haha, i'm a dinosaur and I'm 70 million years old", but I think that many AEW characters are a bit too jokey in general. Nyla Rose makes a nice joke every now and then during a match, but as a heel she should NOT dress up as Mega Man. Oh well.

Haha well true!
It was the match with Warlow that really put me off him, he made everything so awkward and didn't disguise everyone lining up to catch him at all.
But hey different strokes for different folks and all that.

AEW actually has a lot of really good promos; Cody, Jericho, Dustin, MJF, Kingston, Starks etc.

Sigur wrote:

 Kroem wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

There's really no reason Luchasaurus shouldn't be holding a title of some sort at this point.

I'm stunned by this comment... I can't think of anyone less appropriate to hold a title.
I'll give you that he's got a great look, but I find his in-ring work awful and he cuts promos like Beast from XMen
...

I don't think that this ever stopped anybody from holding a title.

Ha!

It does feel like maybe he hasn't been watching wrestling for too long...or maybe I've been watching it for too long?!?

Luchasaurus is fine, and Jurassic Express is 'over' - or at least they were when crowds were around.

There's rumors of a 3-Man Tag Title coming soon, so that would be a fine place for them to hang out as champs for a while...

 Alpharius wrote:

It does feel like maybe he hasn't been watching wrestling for too long...or maybe I've been watching it for too long?!?

Luchasaurus is fine, and Jurassic Express is 'over' - or at least they were when crowds were around.

There's rumors of a 3-Man Tag Title coming soon, so that would be a fine place for them to hang out as champs for a while...

What me? That's fair, obviously I was a big fan in the Attitude Era (weren't we all...) but I stopped watching wrestling until about a year ago when AEW started.
I want AEW to be the best it can be, just because WWF put the belt on Ultimate Warrior or Sid Vicious back the the day doesn't mean AEW should make the same mistakes!

I think Luchasaurus is fine when he's making Jungle Boy look good in Jurassic Express, I just don't want to see him anywhere near the World Championship XD

I think AEW are walking a fine line at the moment, they have some really good talent there but are also a bit too fond of goofy joke wrestlers/ spots.
I'm still enjoying it at the moment, but I hope they don't lean into the comedy wrestling any more than they are already.

You have a good point about AEW there - a lot of the 'humor' isn't working well, but overall, they've got a heck of a promotion right now.

Can't wait for...much later this year when live crowds are back, as there was a great overall 'energy' at their events back then - I miss it, and you can tell they do too!

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Thing is that AEW do a LOT of humour by comparison. Some things hit, some things miss. I think they got a lot of 'smarmy heels'. All that aside, it's great fun to watch. I follow WWE things via youtubsie news videos and watch the PPVs. AEW I watch on a weekly basis. This year I pretty much watched now NJPW stuff, to be honest. I think I even watched more Impact this year than NJPW. Which is a bit odd, but ...well, Gallows and Anderson, right?

I really miss crowds. It's just not the same at the moment and I hate piped-in crowd noise. Up to this week, AEW have been pretty sensible with that. And I'd really, really love to go watch some live wrestling again.

This week's episode of Dynamite was really good! What a talent MJF is, I'm loving everything he is in right now.

 Kroem wrote:
This week's episode of Dynamite was really good! What a talent MJF is, I'm loving everything he is in right now.

I think that this is a thing which could be said for most weeks.
Not sure what to make of The Acclaimed. Just not a fan of battle raps. At least not in Wrestling. It makes me cringe every time, no matter who does it.

Well, at least they're being presented as heels, so you're meant to dislike them

 Dysartes wrote:
Well, at least they're being presented as heels, so you're meant to dislike them

Damn you AEW and your effective booking of heels!!!!1
Really liking Top Flight and the Varcity Blondes though. Seems like the tag division won't lose its spark in the future.

Yeah, it's good to see they're still looking for promising talents.

Was it Top Flight who basically challenged the Young Bucks to a match in their local promotion - which saw the Bucks turn up, and led to the team getting an AEW deal?