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Hi everyone,

This is a topic that I've been looking into for a while now. I've searched several forums (including here) and subreddits looking for insights into this topic, but haven't come up with anything concrete, so I thought I'd open up this discussion.

In a recent episode of TFG Radio (fun little 40k podcast), the guys were talking about the reason Tau hasn't been showing up at the top tables at ITC tournaments (outside of Riptide Wings being thrown into lists). They posited, that it's because Tau, while being really really good at shooting, give up too many phases. They have practically zero melee presence and no psychic presence in a pure Tau list. This puts them at an immediate disadvantage, theoretically against lists with similar power levels. Once people have learned to mitigate the Tau shooting phase, they are quickly overrun in the other phases.

This was the same reason Khorne armies were lacking in Warhammer Fantasy back in the day. They were really good at melee, but didn't have any magic and barely any ranged shooting, while all other top armies had great presence in at least 2 of the 3 phases. As a result they fell behind.

I see the Tau coming up against the same issue.

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Luckily, 7th edition has made it easier than ever to bring allies into your list. With Tau having a pretty flexible allies matrix, we do have several options to bolster our deficiencies. However, I'm having a hard time finding the right allies and I was wondering if I could hear from the community, what works or could theoretically work in a competitive setting, as allies, while keeping the list majority Tau.

Eldar are always touted as great allies, and they were definitely the best when they were battle brothers. But at this point, I feel like they cover a lot of the same ground we do. Shooting and Mobility. We can easily take care of both these things with jetpack suits everywhere. While psychic phase is an issues, I think melee is our biggest weakness, as anything that can reach us in melee with utterly destroy us. Hit and run isn't a guranteed safety feature, when we get hit by thunderwolves. We need something to screen and delay the attack from fast scouting units. Something that can keep them occupied while the majority tau force plants heels and blows up the enemy core.

For melee supplement for Tau, I've found 5 other factions that could help so far:

1) Necrons
Solid melee options with Wraiths. Canoptek harvest is a cheap and efficient formation that can be plugged into any Tau list and proved considerable melee presence that is fast and durable. Lychstar doesn't seem viable with all the extras they require to fully function (not viable as an allied detachment at least)

2) Khorne Daemonkin
The entire faction is melee oriented which gives them kind of a similar problem as Tau except they only have assault phase as their strongpoint. But together they can shore up each other's weaknesses quite well. Muderpack is a great formation that provides, fast, scouting melee units that can cap objectives and provide a good screen for your Tau firepower. Since Tau are ranged and KDK is melee, you will never really have to deal with "one eye open" even though they are desperate allies. Not sure what other combos can be used with this faction.

3) Space Wolves
Wulfen are one of the best melee units in the game currently with a plethora of great special rules (because space marines). Thunderwolves are a good option as well, but they get expensive really fast and I've found that they don't seem to provide the same bang for your buck that Wulfen can give you. They are definitely faster though. Both are solid options. I haven't looked into it, but some melee dreads in Lucius pattern drop pods might work as well?

4) Imperial Knights
Doubling down on giant robots is an appealing option as well. Knights are a great compliment to any army. We can run with both Imperial Knights and Renegade Knights if we so desire. One or two can be great fire magnets and imposing melee deterrents due to stomp and d-strength melee attacks.

5) Ravenwing
Dark Angels Ravenwing Strike Force seems very solid. You get a command squad with apothecary, attach an interrogator chaplain on bike to them. You now have a mini deathstar with rending, fearless, hatred, ATSKNF, Hit and Run, FNP... it goes on. They also have rerollable jink on top of their FNP, which really ups their survivability. If you don't want ot charge in, they have twin linked plasma, so you have AP2 that can hurt pretty much anything and compliment tau shooting. The cool part is, Ravenwing Strike Force can start in reserve and auto comes in on Turn 2. They can outflank as well so you can be where you need to be. You can take that main ministar and a couple of min bike squads as tax that can be used for scoring. This is all relatively cheap as well. I think this can work really well for covering the key Tau weaknesses, which is melee presence and fast scoring units.

But these scenarios combos lead to "Well, I've brought 1200 pts of X to support my remaining 600 pts of Tau."

This is exactly what I've been running into. Any viable support ends up taking too many points. This also leaves tau with less points to run ancillary units like ML, so I'm relegated to using stuff that's more ML independent like Crisis bombs, Y'vahras and Optimized Stealth Cadres. Admech/Skiitari is something I've been looking into as well but haven't found anything solid. Some of the formations have a lot of potential for providing pressure upfield, like the Holy Requisitioner formation from Admech and the Ironstrider Cavaliers from Skiitari.

The other thing to keep in mind is that these melee units need to be fast, like 9-12" movement, so they can also be used for objective grabbing and provide credible threat if footslogging upfield or outflanking.


I'd love to hear some thoughts from the community about what can plug into a Tau list and help provide fast, melee pressure to help Tau lists at least stay relevant in 2 of the 3 important phases. Perhaps a cheap mini-deathstar that can be plugged into any list?

I really like the idea of the Gorepack for picking off backfield units and putting some board control pressure on your opponent early. I'm definitely more a fan of pure tau, but it's tough to ignore something that effective for that cheap.

Also, don't sleep on DE Covens. A webwayed Dark Artisan is damn tough to dislodge and creates a very effective no-move zone. Grotesques will chew through most things in combat and are tough (and regenerative!) enough to take a lot of punishment. A Corpsethief Claw is a bit expensive but packs a huge punch. You've got some really good options in that codex.

Another option to get some psychic and assault are the Harlequins. They are allied of convenience like elder and necros, have insane int, ws, and atks.
And you can get them for as little as 215 points barring any upgrades, ones I would do bump that to ~300 pts. (caresses on all and mastery 2 on seer). Need to jump them from cover to cover but the seers primaris helps with less targeting.

My vote is definitely for a Canoptek Harvest or 2. Allies of convenience and durable as heck.

The best part (and I am very surprised/disappointed that no one has yet to do this) is that you can easily convert the Wraiths to look like prototype combat suits, the Spiders to look like a larger combat support suit and the Scarabs as combat mini-drones (this last one doesn't even need much converting, maybe just add little antennae)

You could either get the Wraiths and "Tau" them up and bit, or get some Crisis suits and deck them out with CC weapons and shield generators

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MilkmanAl wrote:I really like the idea of the Gorepack for picking off backfield units and putting some board control pressure on your opponent early. I'm definitely more a fan of pure tau, but it's tough to ignore something that effective for that cheap.

Also, don't sleep on DE Covens. A webwayed Dark Artisan is damn tough to dislodge and creates a very effective no-move zone. Grotesques will chew through most things in combat and are tough (and regenerative!) enough to take a lot of punishment. A Corpsethief Claw is a bit expensive but packs a huge punch. You've got some really good options in that codex.

Yes, I love the Gorepack. Move through cover and fearless are the main draws, plus no real tax. Not a fan of the Chaos bikers, but a solid formation! I haven't checked out the DE covens stuff, except for the Corpsethief Claw, which is a great little mini deathstar in its own right. How does a Dark Artisan become a threat? I'm not very familiar with DE mechanics.

skullzz wrote:Another option to get some psychic and assault are the Harlequins. They are allied of convenience like elder and necros, have insane int, ws, and atks.
And you can get them for as little as 215 points barring any upgrades, ones I would do bump that to ~300 pts. (caresses on all and mastery 2 on seer). Need to jump them from cover to cover but the seers primaris helps with less targeting.

I did check out Harlequins, but they end up having the same issue that keeps me away from Eldar, they are really fragile and have to move cover to cover, which means they can't really "Tank" for my Tau, as in move up and draw fire or tarpit units from reaching my lines.

Galef wrote:My vote is definitely for a Canoptek Harvest or 2. Allies of convenience and durable as heck.

The best part (and I am very surprised/disappointed that no one has yet to do this) is that you can easily convert the Wraiths to look like prototype combat suits, the Spiders to look like a larger combat support suit and the Scarabs as combat mini-drones (this last one doesn't even need much converting, maybe just add little antennae)

You could either get the Wraiths and "Tau" them up and bit, or get some Crisis suits and deck them out with CC weapons and shield generators

-

I really considered 2x Canoptek Harvests with 5 wraiths each for a long time, it's 650 points for a lot of durable melee units. My only issue with it was that the spider got picked off easily by itself, and without scout, outflank or deepstrike, the wraiths were footslogging up the field and not really being useful most of the game (I suppose they drew a lot of fire). This was painfully apparent in Hammer and Anvil deployment. I tried an allied detachment with a veil of darkness but the Wraiths lost the canoptek harvest rules. Maybe I'm using them wrong? Maybe I should hang back and use them as countercharge units.

The conversions sound really fun too, I considered using some of the mechanicum bots from 30k with CC weapons as Wraiths! Whatever melee option I end up going with, I'll definitely convert and appropriately Tau-fy it.

Heldericht wrote:


I really considered 2x Canoptek Harvests with 5 wraiths each for a long time, it's 650 points for a lot of durable melee units. My only issue with it was that the spider got picked off easily by itself, and without scout, outflank or deepstrike, the wraiths were footslogging up the field and not really being useful most of the game (I suppose they drew a lot of fire). This was painfully apparent in Hammer and Anvil deployment. I tried an allied detachment with a veil of darkness but the Wraiths lost the canoptek harvest rules. Maybe I'm using them wrong? Maybe I should hang back and use them as countercharge units.

The conversions sound really fun too, I considered using some of the mechanicum bots from 30k with CC weapons as Wraiths! Whatever melee option I end up going with, I'll definitely convert and appropriately Tau-fy it.

Wraiths move 12", have fleet for re-rollable run and re-rollable charge, and treat all terrain as open ground. They are one of the fastest assault units in the game. They should be getting into assault turn 2 or its Hammer and Anvil and you are playing against Tau.

Heldericht wrote:
My only issue with it was that the spider got picked off easily by itself, and without scout, outflank or deepstrike, the wraiths were footslogging up the field and not really being useful most of the game (I suppose they drew a lot of fire). This was painfully apparent in Hammer and Anvil deployment.

You might wanna check out the Necron FAQ. If the Spider gets killed, but has still "activated" the rule, the Wraiths keep the rule until the beginning or you next turn. This means that you can activate RPs, then charge outside of the range of the Spider and still have RPs for that run and you opponents turn. They only downside is that if the Wraiths fail to consolidate back into the range of the Spider before the beginning of your next turn, you won't get RPs even if you later move into range.

I used to play 2 Harvests with my Eldar (heresy, I know) and even being Come the Apoc allies wasn't too bad of an issue. As Tau are Convenience allies, you don't even have to worry about tricky movement to avoid getting too close. I often had the Wraiths move out of range of the Spider and they still did fine. But I never spent more than 1 turn out of range, as the Wraiths often did not move very much once they engaged their target, allowing the Spider to catch up within 1 turn (always run)

Think of it this way, if your opponent is trying to kill the Spider, they are not shooting something else that is deadlier. The Spider is so cheap (and ridiculously durable with RP) that nothing within it's cost range can kill it in 1 turn, effectively forcing your opponent to commit a disproportionate amount of resources into it. Smart players know this and tend to ignore the Spider. Either way, you benefit.
Point for Point, 1-2 Harvests are the best CC addition to Tau. They are cheap enough to not take too much away from the Tau and durable enough to be an incredible threat. And their "tax" units are actually great screening/ counter assault units for the Tau.
The best part is that the Wraiths don't need to do much damage, since the Tau shooting can do that, making the Wraiths an even more valuable tar-pit than they are in their own army.

Tactical note on Scarabs: Own 10, field 2x 3. Turn 1, have both Spiders add a Scarab to the same unit. Spider A moves up, adds Scarab in front of the unit, Spider B moves up, adds Scarab in front of that. Congrats, you just added 7" forward to the Scarab unit. Now move the Scarabs, which can now perform a turn 1 charge on just about anything. Turn 2 repeat this process with the second unit of Scarabs.

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col_impact wrote:


Wraiths move 12", have fleet for re-rollable run and re-rollable charge, and treat all terrain as open ground. They are one of the fastest assault units in the game. They should be getting into assault turn 2 or its Hammer and Anvil and you are playing against Tau.

True, they aren't bad at movement, I'm just saying compared to something like a Gorepack or drop podding Wulfen, they are not as easily able to get to where they need to be to provide the right amount of pressure.

I was playing against War Convocation and he just sat back and let me come up and get shot, then charged with high knight and another melee unit to finish them off. If I had something that can bypass that or be in their face sooner (with scout or outflank), I'd have loved to get into his destroyers and stop all that grav. As it stood, I couldn't get anywhere near them.

As I said, I was probably not using them as best as I should have been, but footslogging melee is hard to pull off in any army short of being a deathstar of some sort that's mega durable..

 Galef wrote:

Heldericht wrote:
My only issue with it was that the spider got picked off easily by itself, and without scout, outflank or deepstrike, the wraiths were footslogging up the field and not really being useful most of the game (I suppose they drew a lot of fire). This was painfully apparent in Hammer and Anvil deployment.

You might wanna check out the Necron FAQ. If the Spider gets killed, but has still "activated" the rule, the Wraiths keep the rule until the beginning or you next turn. This means that you can activate RPs, then charge outside of the range of the Spider and still have RPs for that run and you opponents turn. They only downside is that if the Wraiths fail to consolidate back into the range of the Spider before the beginning of your next turn, you won't get RPs even if you later move into range.

I used to play 2 Harvests with my Eldar (heresy, I know) and even being Come the Apoc allies wasn't too bad of an issue. As Tau are Convenience allies, you don't even have to worry about tricky movement to avoid getting too close. I often had the Wraiths move out of range of the Spider and they still did fine. But I never spent more than 1 turn out of range, as the Wraiths often did not move very much once they engaged their target, allowing the Spider to catch up within 1 turn (always run)

Think of it this way, if your opponent is trying to kill the Spider, they are not shooting something else that is deadlier. The Spider is so cheap (and ridiculously durable with RP) that nothing within it's cost range can kill it in 1 turn, effectively forcing your opponent to commit a disproportionate amount of resources into it. Smart players know this and tend to ignore the Spider. Either way, you benefit.
Point for Point, 1-2 Harvests are the best CC addition to Tau. They are cheap enough to not take too much away from the Tau and durable enough to be an incredible threat. And their "tax" units are actually great screening/ counter assault units for the Tau.
The best part is that the Wraiths don't need to do much damage, since the Tau shooting can do that, making the Wraiths an even more valuable tar-pit than they are in their own army.

Tactical note on Scarabs: Own 10, field 2x 3. Turn 1, have both Spiders add a Scarab to the same unit. Spider A moves up, adds Scarab in front of the unit, Spider B moves up, adds Scarab in front of that. Congrats, you just added 7" forward to the Scarab unit. Now move the Scarabs, which can now perform a turn 1 charge on just about anything. Turn 2 repeat this process with the second unit of Scarabs.

-

That's a great little tip with the scarabs!

So how did you feel the Harvest performed against the strong meta armies, like say deathstars or battle company or an opposing gunline? Would love to hear your insights on what worked and what didn't. Seems like you used them in a similar capacity with your eldar as I'm trying to do with my Tau.

I would consider the original theories for "Why Tau aren't on the top tables" to be fairly wonky. Lack of melee presence can be mitigated through appropriate use of screening, sacrificial units, and 5e-style moveblocking, while Psychic powers are a points-intensive endeavor either used for::
-Buffing up melee deathstars: You don't have your own melee deathstar.
-Summoning units: Usually as a "trap"/way to lure units off objectives. The super-factory isn't exactly tourney-viable.
-The odd Psychic Shriek here-and-there for assassination.

For Blessings and Summons, Deny The Witch won't be reliable or worth points-investment, since they manifest on 4+ (or 3+ or 2+), while you Deny on 6s. So you spend the points on the rest of your army and suck it up.

The real weakness Tau have is that outside of the Riptides/Broadsides (and Ghostkeels nowadays), the rest of their army is either fairly squishy against return-fire, or lacks real "hitting power" for their points-cost, or are "slow"/not suited for "capping" objectives.

To put this in perspective: 5 Fire Warriors and a Devilfish are 135 points. With the Gladius and two Demi-Companies: 5 Tacmarines and a Razorback are 70 points. The Tacmarines get a better save, leadership, ATSKNF, and Chapter Tactics which allow them to "stay in the fight" longer. Or Marines can run Bikes.

Suits are similarly expensive when fully decked out, with the vulnerabilities inherent for "ID"-style attacks, or low Leadership. For example, one Crisis Suit with 2 Missile Pods costs the same as two Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers. The latter are more likely to outlast the former in an attritionary exchange.

Assault for the Tau Phase should be viewed as: "Bring vehicles with expendable drones, don't be afraid to detach them, shoot, and use their Jetpack Move to move directly 1" in front of enemy non-jumpers, or 1" in front of units that could be assaulted by jumpers."

Dark Artisan is really only useful to you if you use a web way portal to teleport it in somewhere problematic for your opponent. While it certainly can hold its own in combat, it really isn't incredibly useful as an offensive threat. Where it really shines is area denial. With majority T7 and 3+/4+++ with re rolls of 1s, it's going to take a lot of effort to remove as it slowly eats through a backfield unit every turn. For a little more offense, you could opt to webway in a large grotesquerie (or half of one, anyway) and go to town. It's generally not easy to get 30 T5 wounds out of your backfield.

Heldericht wrote:
So how did you feel the Harvest performed against the strong meta armies, like say deathstars or battle company or an opposing gunline? Would love to hear your insights on what worked and what didn't. Seems like you used them in a similar capacity with your eldar as I'm trying to do with my Tau.

Well considering I used these in tournaments in which I table every opponent I have ever played, I'd say they performed pretty well. So well in fact, that I sold the Harvests to focus on just Eldar to stop being TFG, if that tells you anything.

The strength of the list is one that would also apply to Tau. Most opponents need to get close to Eldar or Tau to beat them. The Harvests run interference and cause Anit-Eldar/Tau tactics to be thrown out the window. The opponent has to deal with the Harvests. This is why you need 2 Harvests with at least 5 Wraith in each unit. 5 Wraiths with whip coils are better and cheaper that 6 Wraiths without.

And btw, I know you would make the a bit more Tau-like, but here are my conversions for mine (much cheaper than buying Wraiths & Spider kits)
http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2015/03/necron-canoptek-units.html

MagicJuggler wrote:I would consider the original theories for "Why Tau aren't on the top tables" to be fairly wonky. Lack of melee presence can be mitigated through appropriate use of screening, sacrificial units, and 5e-style moveblocking, while Psychic powers are a points-intensive endeavor either used for::
-Buffing up melee deathstars: You don't have your own melee deathstar.
-Summoning units: Usually as a "trap"/way to lure units off objectives. The super-factory isn't exactly tourney-viable.
-The odd Psychic Shriek here-and-there for assassination.

For Blessings and Summons, Deny The Witch won't be reliable or worth points-investment, since they manifest on 4+ (or 3+ or 2+), while you Deny on 6s. So you spend the points on the rest of your army and suck it up.

The real weakness Tau have is that outside of the Riptides/Broadsides (and Ghostkeels nowadays), the rest of their army is either fairly squishy against return-fire, or lacks real "hitting power" for their points-cost, or are "slow"/not suited for "capping" objectives.

To put this in perspective: 5 Fire Warriors and a Devilfish are 135 points. With the Gladius and two Demi-Companies: 5 Tacmarines and a Razorback are 70 points. The Tacmarines get a better save, leadership, ATSKNF, and Chapter Tactics which allow them to "stay in the fight" longer. Or Marines can run Bikes.

Suits are similarly expensive when fully decked out, with the vulnerabilities inherent for "ID"-style attacks, or low Leadership. For example, one Crisis Suit with 2 Missile Pods costs the same as two Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers. The latter are more likely to outlast the former in an attritionary exchange.

Assault for the Tau Phase should be viewed as: "Bring vehicles with expendable drones, don't be afraid to detach them, shoot, and use their Jetpack Move to move directly 1" in front of enemy non-jumpers, or 1" in front of units that could be assaulted by jumpers."

Psychic phase is definitely very important in the current meta. It seems like something that has been at the top tables in most tournaments these days, unless it's a Battle Company or War Convocation (sometimes with War Convo too), since they get a ton of free points anyway. Summoning is definitely a top tier tactic right now for many armies as it lets you control maelstrom and use units as tarpits while your main army can focus on killing things. On top of that, having some sort of psychic presence gives you a better chance of denying key spells, which can make or break your offense.

I agree that some of the Tau stuff is overcosted, like Devilfish. I definitely avoid these units and focus on the suits which are the bread and butter of a good Tau force. They are versatile and fairly hardy. Riptides/Broadsides with their 2+ saves and all suits being multiwound is a huge boon. True, jetbikes are undercosted, but I'm just trying to work with what I have. And what Tau have is pretty solid, that's good shooting for every situation. Just need to splash in some other stuff to fine tune the list and make it a true all comers army.

MilkmanAl wrote:Dark Artisan is really only useful to you if you use a web way portal to teleport it in somewhere problematic for your opponent. While it certainly can hold its own in combat, it really isn't incredibly useful as an offensive threat. Where it really shines is area denial. With majority T7 and 3+/4+++ with re rolls of 1s, it's going to take a lot of effort to remove as it slowly eats through a backfield unit every turn. For a little more offense, you could opt to webway in a large grotesquerie (or half of one, anyway) and go to town. It's generally not easy to get 30 T5 wounds out of your backfield.

I see. So it's a bit like Conclave of the Burning One formation from Necrons which can veil of darkness in and do some psuedo psychic shooting attacks with the c'tan and do decently in melee. The DE version sounds better.

Galef wrote:

Heldericht wrote:
So how did you feel the Harvest performed against the strong meta armies, like say deathstars or battle company or an opposing gunline? Would love to hear your insights on what worked and what didn't. Seems like you used them in a similar capacity with your eldar as I'm trying to do with my Tau.

Well considering I used these in tournaments in which I table every opponent I have ever played, I'd say they performed pretty well. So well in fact, that I sold the Harvests to focus on just Eldar to stop being TFG, if that tells you anything.

The strength of the list is one that would also apply to Tau. Most opponents need to get close to Eldar or Tau to beat them. The Harvests run interference and cause Anit-Eldar/Tau tactics to be thrown out the window. The opponent has to deal with the Harvests. This is why you need 2 Harvests with at least 5 Wraith in each unit. 5 Wraiths with whip coils are better and cheaper that 6 Wraiths without.

And btw, I know you would make the a bit more Tau-like, but here are my conversions for mine (much cheaper than buying Wraiths & Spider kits)
http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/2015/03/necron-canoptek-units.html

You've convinced me to give Canoptek Harvests another shot. I'll definitely do some more testing and report back. I'll try holding them back as countercharge units instead of just throwing them upfield. How did you deal with shootier armies like Tau or other Eldar when you played Eldar/Harvest? Did your Wraiths survive slogging upfield?

Those are great conversions btw! Love the wraiths.

I'm not saying that summoning *isn't* a viable strategy (as it very well is), so much as the "Giant Daemon Factory" itself wasn't and that it's a good tool to have in an already-functional army, and that trying to build up a ton of Warp Charge to attempt to deny Summons/Buffs is going to be extremely cost-inefficient.

Or simply put, a Librarius Conclave gets 6 WC, plus a D6's worth, and manifests a unit of Daemons on 2+s. So 9 dice averages to about 7.5 successes. To get an "average/near-even" shot of denying that would be about 44-45 WC. (The actual combinatorics will take some more time to fully sort out).

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I'm not saying that summoning *isn't* a viable strategy (as it very well is), so much as the "Giant Daemon Factory" itself wasn't and that it's a good tool to have in an already-functional army, and that trying to build up a ton of Warp Charge to attempt to deny Summons/Buffs is going to be extremely cost-inefficient.

Or simply put, a Librarius Conclave gets 6 WC, plus a D6's worth, and manifests a unit of Daemons on 2+s. So 9 dice averages to about 7.5 successes. To get an "average/near-even" shot of denying that would be about 44-45 WC. (The actual combinatorics will take some more time to fully sort out).

You're absolutely right, trying to counter warp charges is a losing strategy. And yes, you are correct that summoning shouldn't be the basis of your army, but something to sprinkle into a solid foundation.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of the psychic phase in its current incarnation. It doesn't appeal to me at all, having to roll for random powers and then having to roll for them to go off every turn. I prefer knowing what I have and planning around it and knowing there is a reasonable chance of it going off. Like Riptide Novas.

This is why I'm trying to find things that can bolster us in the assault phase. As that is a known quantity.

Most "shooty" armies rely on ignoring saves (Wraiths have 3++) or forcing so many saves that you start to fail (T5, 3++ & 5+RP makes that strategy difficult). Plus, it isn't like the Harvests are doing all the damage. I was using them allied with Scatterbike spam and a WK, so I dealt with the threats that could hurt the Wraiths first. Then the Wraiths ran over the rest of the army.

Tau should have an easier time doing this than Eldar since they should have more shooting. One of the scariest 40K armies I can think of is Riptide WIng + 2 Harvests

This thread has my brain spinning! I do still like the idea of a Gorepack sniping weak units and causing heavy-hitting assault units to tap the breaks a lot and may give it a shot, but the beatstick counter-charge tactic is where the money is for me.

A Canoptek Harvest sounds like a can't-miss option, for sure. However, I'm still hanging on to a Grotesquerie as a potential game-changer. You can deploy one unit normally to counter-charge and Webway the other in to herd your opponent as convenient and romp through objective camping units. They aren't rocking a 3++, but FNP and IWND is pretty tough to get through if you're able to rotate the models well. Wraiths are markedly better vs heavy vehicles, walkers, and things with 2+, but the Grotesques dominate everything else. The speed differential is also a concern. I also like Grotesques a whole lot.

I've only ever tried one Harvest with my Tau, and it was a wonderful success. In the current meta there are just so many things Tau can't deal with without expending disproportionate resources, or with allies, and many, many of those are best dealt with, not by trying to beat them, so much as tie them up.

Many deathstars get tied up again 5 Wraiths for long enough that you've functionally removed half of someone's list for most of the game... that's amazing as at the end of the day, objectives/scoring is the less sexy win, but the win none the less.

The only reason i'd never run two Harvests is that in most three-source/formation tournaments, Tau really want at least two of those for themselves.

Actually, the formation limit is a good reason to use Grotesques since the Grotesquerie gives you two units of them. It's tough to give up the mobility Wraiths offer, though, and getting a save against Wulfen and Thunderwolves with power fist equivalents is a huge deal.

After seeing this post (and owning grotesques), I made a list to see what I can do. Using ITC rules for list building and at 1850 points I have:

Farsight Enclaves CAD
Drone Commander with Iridium armor, drone controller, and 2 marker drones

Two monat crisis suits as troops

4 Marker Drones

Riptide Wing
Bursttide with EWO and Stimson
Iontide with EWO and Stimson, Bursttide with EWO and Target Lock
Iontide with EWO and Stimson, Bursttide with EWO and Target Lock

Grotesquerie
Haemonculus with WWP
6 grotesques +1 Aberration
3 Grotesques in a raider.

Iontides will tank for the Bursttides, haemie will go with the larger squad to drop anywhere I want, and the raider with grotesques could actually as a quick reaction squad; they can deep strike, camp a backfield objective, or act as a counter assault deterrent.

Don't FSE Commander's not have access to Iridium armor? I thought they had to take different experimental suits?

Meanwhile here is what i'll be trying in the next few weeks too, thanks to this thread, and an overwhelming feeling, post-NOVA, that I need to do something weird if I want to be more competitive. :-p

+++ New Roster (1849pts) +++

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

Canoptek Harvest [Canoptek Spyder]
Canoptek Scarabs [3x Canoptek Scarab]
Canoptek Wraiths
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]

++ Tau Empire: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

Riptide Wing
XV104 Riptide Battlesuits
Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]
XV104 Riptide Battlesuits
Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]
XV104 Riptide Battlesuits
Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]

++ Tau Empire: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Commander [2x MV7 Marker Drone]
XV8 Commander Crisis Suit [Command and Control Node, Drone Controller, Shield Generator, Stimulant Injector, XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit]

+ Elites +

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits
Crisis Shas'ui [2x Fusion Blaster]
Crisis Shas'ui [2x Fusion Blaster]
Crisis Shas'ui [2x Fusion Blaster]
Crisis Shas'vre [2x Fusion Blaster]

+ Troops +

Breacher Team [Bonding Knife Ritual, 5x Fire Warrior with Pulse Blaster]

Breacher Team [5x Fire Warrior with Pulse Blaster]

+ Fast Attack +

Drones [6x MV7 Marker Drone]

XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit [FW] [Early Warning Override, Stimulant Injector]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

It occurs to me that you could essentially anchor Stormsurges with impunity if you had a strong countercharge unit or two available. Alternatively, you can also advance and D-shotgun things in the face a lot more safely with a tough combat escort. I like the riptide approaches above, but I think I'm going to give a dual Surge list a try.

I prefer 'tide heavy versus Stormsurges currently only because inevitably someone shows up with 4x Knights, and you really want access to mobility and getting two facings on them. One surge and a couple tides likewise makes your opponent make a crappy decision in that case... Do they deal with D-missiles from the front, or Y'vahra shenanigans from a side/rear? :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Don't FSE Commander's not have access to Iridium armor?

The Mont'Ka supplement gives FSE access to both FSE and Tau Empire Signature Wargear.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Don't FSE Commander's not have access to Iridium armor?

The Mont'Ka supplement gives FSE access to both FSE and Tau Empire Signature Wargear.

You're right that FSE characters can take the TE Signatue, but in Mont'ka the restriction is still there.
It's in the latest Farsight Enclave supplement that it was lifted. And the draft FAQ contains an errata to also lift that restriction for the older version (and also finally allow Riptides to take the earth caste pilot array).

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Don't FSE Commander's not have access to Iridium armor? I thought they had to take different experimental suits?

Meanwhile here is what i'll be trying in the next few weeks too, thanks to this thread, and an overwhelming feeling, post-NOVA, that I need to do something weird if I want to be more competitive. :-p

+++ New Roster (1849pts) +++

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

Canoptek Harvest [Canoptek Spyder]
Canoptek Scarabs [3x Canoptek Scarab]
Canoptek Wraiths
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]

++ Tau Empire: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

Riptide Wing
XV104 Riptide Battlesuits
Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]
XV104 Riptide Battlesuits
Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]
XV104 Riptide Battlesuits
Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]

++ Tau Empire: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ HQ +

Commander [2x MV7 Marker Drone]
XV8 Commander Crisis Suit [Command and Control Node, Drone Controller, Shield Generator, Stimulant Injector, XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit]

+ Elites +

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits
Crisis Shas'ui [2x Fusion Blaster]
Crisis Shas'ui [2x Fusion Blaster]
Crisis Shas'ui [2x Fusion Blaster]
Crisis Shas'vre [2x Fusion Blaster]

+ Troops +

Breacher Team [Bonding Knife Ritual, 5x Fire Warrior with Pulse Blaster]

Breacher Team [5x Fire Warrior with Pulse Blaster]

+ Fast Attack +

Drones [6x MV7 Marker Drone]

XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit [FW] [Early Warning Override, Stimulant Injector]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

That is a solid list. Y'vahra is always a good choice in any Tau list, as is Riptide Wing, of course. The crisis unit can act as a melta command squad drop pod and take out a big threat in a sacrifical attack. Although they have a better chance of getting out of it with jump moves.

You have the Canoptek harvest in there to move up field and engage units in melee too.

My only concerin is your Breacher units. They don't have a transport so they'll just end up being out of range and useless most of the game. Would highly recommend either making them a strike team for some more longer ranged reliable damage or just using a farsight enclaves CAD and bringing more suits that can deepstrike down and contest objectives. Solo suits are really good at clearing out objectives too with flamers.

Let us know how the list worked out if you get a chance to test it!

Thanks! My thought for Breachers was hoping they'd sit on back-field objectives, hopefully in cover, and be a deterrent for Drop-podded Marines with their shotguns. I know Fire Warriors would generally be a better pick.

Running FSE with extra Crisis Suit solos as troops would be even better, but can the FSE take Y'vahra?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Thanks! My thought for Breachers was hoping they'd sit on back-field objectives, hopefully in cover, and be a deterrent for Drop-podded Marines with their shotguns. I know Fire Warriors would generally be a better pick.

Running FSE with extra Crisis Suit solos as troops would be even better, but can the FSE take Y'vahra?

Yes! FSE CAD can take everything a regular Tau CAD can on top of Crisis suit as troops. The only difference is you have to take Bonding Knife Ritual on any unit that can take it, within the CAD. This doesn't affect Y'vahras. Definitely give it a shot.

Fire Warriors are just as much of a deterrent and more flexible! Drop pod marines will just drop outside their dangerous short range or kill them on the drop anyway since the breachers don't have interceptor.

So I tried out a Canoptek Harvest with a Tau list consisting of a Riptide with ECPA, a Stormsurge and 2x Y'vahras. I played against a War Convocation with double knight (Atropos and Warden)

The list performed admirably with Y'vahras doing the heavy lifting especially after my Stormsurge got vortexed out by an Atropos.

The Canoptek Harvest was able to hug cover and move up quickly and crash into his backline and take out 3 units of Skiitari before being grav'd out by his Kataphron Destroyers. I wanted to send my Harvest to take out the Knights but he positioned well and was hanging back and shooting with his knights while in range of his grav in case I got closer, so I had to let go of that plan.

I lost in the end but I think the combo definitely has potential, especially since my Stormsurge got unluckily 6'd out by a destroyer vortex. However, I think if he had positioned his grav better I would never have been able to make it to the backlines in the first place. They are absolutely slaughtered by Grav.

I couldn't afford to hold them back either since his entire army was hanging back and shooting which mean if I didn't get into melee with the Harvest they'd essentially be dead weight at that point.

I think I need to find an alternative or fit in another harvest because it feels like one is too susceptible to being taken out with focus fire.

Anyone else with any testing on this topic?

I'm going to start trying a Ravenwing command squad with a techmarine on a bike with my Tau. I need that mobile outflank unit.

What aboit this?

1850

RIPTIDE WING:
- 3x BurstTides (EWO)

FBSC:
- 2×3 BroadSides (EWO)
- 1x IonTide

BULLY BOYZ:
- 3x5 MegaNobz
- 3x Trukks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or this...

1835
Conclave
3x ML2 Termie Libbys

Skyhammer
2x AssltSq w/ VetSgt Eviscerator
4x GravDevs Pod
4x Multimelt Pod

CAD
Ethereal
2x5 FW
1x YVarha EWO

Riptide Wing
3x Burstide EWI