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I like the idea of Bully Boyz, but I'm no ork expert. What kind of points investment is that? Also, aren't Orks CTA allies with Tau? I can't recall. Trukks may be a touch flimsy to get them where they need to be, but if you're using them largely as a countercharge unit, they should be just fine.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I like the idea of Bully Boyz, but I'm no ork expert. What kind of points investment is that? Also, aren't Orks CTA allies with Tau? I can't recall. Trukks may be a touch flimsy to get them where they need to be, but if you're using them largely as a countercharge unit, they should be just fine.

Orks are not CTA. Bully Boyz formation is solid, the main thing is you make them fearless, which is invaluable. On top of that you just run the trukks up. Even if they blow up after one turn of movement, it is usually enough to get them in the right spots to become huge threats if they aren't dealth with immediately. With 2+ saves and tons of damage in assault, they will require significant resources to take out.

It's a good option, but I prefer something that moves 12" all the time for more flexibility. It would suck to have bikes just run around them after their trukks are gone.

After a little Googling, sounds like they're a 700+ point investment. That's pretty steep for a supposedly supplemental force. I mean, maybe it's worthwhile? They definitely fend off lots of things that make Tau unhappy. They fold pretty easily to opposing power fists, though, so that worries me when up against wolf stars or some super friends. Wraiths and Grotesques are decidedly more useful in those areas.

I've had some success with Grey Knights.

They do quite a bit of work, either buffing or attacking in the Psychic Phase and aren't bad in melee.

HQ - Librarian
-ML 3
-Cuirass of Sacrifice (FNP and IWND)

Troops - Terminator Squad
- 4 Halberds
- 1 Justicar with Hammer

Heavy - Nemesis Dreadknight x2
-Heavy Incinerator
-Heavy Psycannon
-Greatsword & Fist
-Personal Tele



This nets you 6 Psychic Dice + Rolled which is enough to either have you Libby drop some offensive/team buff stuff or keep Force up on your NDKs and Termies the whole game if you're fighting multiwound non-vehicles, or Sactuary on the whole detachment for 4++ all the way around.

The NDKs are sitting at WS 5, STR 10 Melee, 4 Would, 3 Attacks, Master-Crafted with the option for some pretty serious ranged support when not in assault.

The Termies are what we all know and love, STR 5 Halberds, STR 10 Justicar.

The NDKs have plenty of movement with 30" shunt from Teles and the entire detachment can be null deployed and brought in turn 1 Deep Striking with the Nemsis Strike Force special rules.

Granted, it's 783 points, but you could probably tweak it down and dump the special Curiass on the Libby, the Hammer on the Justicar, the pair of Flamethrowers on the NDKs and/or drop the NDKs Greatsword down to either a pair of Fists (no Force and Unweildy) or Hammer/Fist (Unweildy) and save 73/83 pionts (Hammer/Fist or Dual Fists) if you were really pressed for Tau points.

Never, ever, EVER take Greatswords on Nemesis Dreadknights.

Hammers have everything they do, plus Concussive. Sure, they're unwieldy, but MCs ignore Unwieldy. It's 5 Points for less goodness.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Never, ever, EVER take Greatswords on Nemesis Dreadknights.

Hammers have everything they do, plus Concussive. Sure, they're unwieldy, but MCs ignore Unwieldy. It's 5 Points for less goodness.

It's 5 points for Master-crafted, which is normally 10....

I coulda sworn the Hammers were also Master-Crafted... But yeah, losing Unwieldy is absolutely pointless.

Good point, I so rarely run MCs I forgot they ignore unwieldy

I too plan to add a Canoptek Harvest to my Tau (have even developed some backstory for that). Wanted to put some Eldar as well, but the Warlock-n-Farseer formation in bikes isn't cheap!

How does everyone feel about adding some Genestealer Cult allies? Being CtA is no fun, but having a couple of saw-wielding Acolyte units running around sounds like an excellent potential solution to Wraithknights and fast, tough tihngs that want to get into combat. The fact that they can pop up where needed and potentially assault immediately is pretty nice, and they are quite cost-effective.

I love the idea of running Sisters of Silence with my Tau. I am currently working on a set of conversions that are Kroot Hound-esque. The Culexus is so good with his aura and deployment options, but dies so fast that he only makes things hard for a Deathstar on Turn 1. While easier to hit, and only T3, the Sisters are less durable; but there are so many of them, and they are in three different units. Plus with so much of a potential coverage area, they can do much more work in terms of board control. I also feel, for the points, the Sisters could potentially do more work against non-psychic opponents as well.

I'm actually revisiting the idea of buying the Death Masque set, and allying the Harlequin formation from there with my Tau. I don't think it would be super-competitive, but it would be fun!

 Plainshow wrote:
I love the idea of running Sisters of Silence with my Tau. I am currently working on a set of conversions that are Kroot Hound-esque. The Culexus is so good with his aura and deployment options, but dies so fast that he only makes things hard for a Deathstar on Turn 1. While easier to hit, and only T3, the Sisters are less durable; but there are so many of them, and they are in three different units. Plus with so much of a potential coverage area, they can do much more work in terms of board control. I also feel, for the points, the Sisters could potentially do more work against non-psychic opponents as well.

I was thinking the same thing! A Null Maiden Task Force is a nice, cheap way to get your psychic defense and have a respectable counter-charge unit all in one. The fact that 3 units costs 225 pts is pretty tasty, as well. Personally, I think that option is superior to a Culexus for the reasons you mentioned. More anti-psychic coverage plus more utility=golden.

One thing worth noting, though, is that you typically only really need 1 turn of psychic buff denial. Tau are darn good at taking down individual powerful units, so if you can manage to get that herd of bikers/wolves/Centurions un-invisible for a turn, they're going to feel the hurt in spectacular fashion. S10 pie plates pour on the pain. With the potential for multiple attempts at road-blocking and psychic denial, the Sisters seem like a very handy choice for most Tau armies.

 Rommel013 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Never, ever, EVER take Greatswords on Nemesis Dreadknights.

Hammers have everything they do, plus Concussive. Sure, they're unwieldy, but MCs ignore Unwieldy. It's 5 Points for less goodness.

It's 5 points for Master-crafted, which is normally 10....

Let's put this Sword vs Hammer thing into perspective. Sword gives Master-Crafted, Hammer gives concussive. That is the only difference between them.
With 4 Attacks at WS5, you will hit most things but are likely to miss 1 hit each time. MC is likely to be used in EVERY SINGLE combat no matter what your target is
Concussive on the other hand is only good vs units that are Initiative 4+ that you anticipate not killing in the first round.
Most of the units that a DK cannot kill in 1 round are also likely to kill the DK anyway, so Concussive is worthless.
So you tell me which is better?

In regards to allying with Tau, DKs are a fantastic addition as they are basically CC Riptides so the present a similar threat.

TL;DR: Master-Craft is good in every game, all the time. Concussive will matter in less than half of your games.

I forgot that Hammers were not Master-Crafted. So yeah, the Greatsword is better. Is it 5 points better? Debatably (I prefer the Hammer) but both are definitely viable choices.

Tau are just eldar without psychic powers and trash leadership for the most part - so people take eldar instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I forgot that Hammers were not Master-Crafted. So yeah, the Greatsword is better. Is it 5 points better? Debatably (I prefer the Hammer) but both are definitely viable choices.

Its probably the best 5 points you can spend in the codex. It gives you a reroll to hit AND to wound. Essentially it's like having +2 attacks.

How does it give you reroll to wound? Master-Crafted only affects Hit rolls.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Tau are just eldar without psychic powers and trash leadership for the most part - so people take eldar instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I forgot that Hammers were not Master-Crafted. So yeah, the Greatsword is better. Is it 5 points better? Debatably (I prefer the Hammer) but both are definitely viable choices.

Its probably the best 5 points you can spend in the codex. It gives you a reroll to hit AND to wound. Essentially it's like having +2 attacks.

The sword is a 10pt upgrade. Regardless, there is no contest. 10pts for an additional S10 AP2 attack is worth it.

It's only 5 points from the Hammer, which is what he was referring to.

MilkmanAl wrote:
One thing worth noting, though, is that you typically only really need 1 turn of psychic buff denial. Tau are darn good at taking down individual powerful units, so if you can manage to get that herd of bikers/wolves/Centurions un-invisible for a turn, they're going to feel the hurt in spectacular fashion. S10 pie plates pour on the pain. With the potential for multiple attempts at road-blocking and psychic denial, the Sisters seem like a very handy choice for most Tau armies.

I find my opponents just avoid the Culexus' null zone until he's dead, rather than actually giving up their buffs for a turn. That is still points well spent in my book, because that slows them down by a turn by forcing that choice. I am usually still facing a "Fully armed and operational" deathstar, and that is often too much to handle in a progressive objective mission. I think the Sisters can really mitigate that disadvantage for me. The big drawback will be in Dawn of War deployments, where "One Eye Open" is a bit harder to avoid. Even if I do draw the combination of a psychic deathstar and Dawn of War together, I feel the risk of rolling a 1 on that check is still a better gamble than ceding a huge section of the battlefield to the opponent. I used to be able to get by taking out everything but the deathstar, limiting the amount of scoring they could muster. Now that they are so fast and filled with ICs that can break off after my major threats have been smashed, that stratagy no longer works consistantly. I can't wait to put the Sisters to the test, and see if they live up to my expectations!

I'm totally with you on all points. It'll be nice to have multiple psychic denial bubbles spread across the board that you don't necessarily have to meticulously hide throughout the game. The Sisters also have the nice bonus of being able to mulch marine and marine vehicle MSU with relative ease. That'll help a lot when facing down a Battle Company, a matchup they'd otherwise not be terribly useful in.

What is the point of the assault units? Are they there to merely distract/tie up or are we expecting them to clean house in the back field? I don't think that the 'cleaning house' attitude is realistic in the current meta. I would say that a very pragmatic goal for assault units in our lists would be appear that they could actually get there. I would avoid drop pods because I think there is a psychologocal thing going on when you see fast assault units closing the distance.

Also how many points do you sink into an ally detachment before it starts to get into the way playing a Tau list? I personally feel that once an ally starts crossing 300-400 points, it starts to encroach on other things I want to pack in, if we are talking about an 1850 list.

If I were to take an ally in a Tau list for assault, I would consider some of these attributes:

- An invul save (3++ or at least the 5+ daemon save)

- 12 inch movement (minimum) or Eldar bikes

- Fearless

- Multiwound models

- T5 or better



If I were looking at my choices I'd be looking at:

1) Canoptek Harvest (Formation)

- Canoptek Scarabs X 3
- Canoptek Spyder X 1
- Canoptek Wraiths X 5

Aprox 310 points

2) Gorepack (Formation)

- Chaos Marine Bikers X 3
- Chaos Marine Bikers X 3
- Flesh Hounds X 10

Aprox 300 points

3) Space Wolves Allied Detachment

- Rune Priest X 1
- Grey Hunters X 5
- Thunder Wolf Calvary (with shields) X 4

Approx 350 points

4) Chaos Marine Allied Detachment

- Nurgle Bike lord X 1
- Cultist X 10
- Nurgle Chaos Bikers X 4

Aprox 289 points

5) Eldar Allied Detachment

- Farseer on bike X 1
- Wind Riders X 3
- Shining Spears (W/ Exarch) X 5

Aprox 301 points


Obviously these detachments can be tweaked but you get the idea. I added Singing Spears because you should be able to get them accross the table as good as heavier fast units with invuls. Plus the Farseer would be a nice perk for the psychic phase.

If running Yvhara, Stormsurges, or multiple Riptides, your goal should be to split your opponent's resources (and hopefully ruin their game plan) enough to either get your assault units into combat or to give your big guns in backfield some breathing room. I think that would be the balance to strike...just enough threat from assault units to make that happen.

Personally, I've been having a lot of fun using Company of the Great Wolf Detachment as an counter-assault unit.

HQ
Wolf Priest in Runic Armour on JP
Elite
2 Iron Priests on Wolves
Fast
3 TWC with PF/SS on each

595 - Fearless, fast, 2+, or 3++ depending on positioning. Throw in PE(1 unit type) and +6 FNP for giggles.

It's a decent chunk of points compared to the 300 or so points mention above, but if you LOS with them as best as possible until later in the game, the enemy has to pick and choose his aggression on your gunline a lot more carefully.

I recently played in a highlander tournament with a similar "star" and I only charged with the unit 2-3 times the entire tournament. They outranged the enemy firepower the first turn or 2, absorbed enemy fire later in the game, and protected farseer/scats/Wraithknight/allied TFC all game. If the enemy got tired of getting shot at from a far they had to be in range of TWC charges.

What is the point of the assault units? Are they there to merely distract/tie up or are we expecting them to clean house in the back field? I don't think that the 'cleaning house' attitude is realistic in the current meta. I would say that a very pragmatic goal for assault units in our lists would be appear that they could actually get there.

For me, assault units would primarily be for stalling faster enemies so everything else can run away and shoot more. Area denial would be second, and killing things a distant third - more of a bonus than anything. Sisters of Silence would be a touch different in that they're mostly around to deny psychic buffs (i.e., for area denial) but can also chop things up to a decent extent if necessary. They're obviously no tanks, so stalling things isn't really much of an option there.

Wouldn't an Wraithknight be one of the best this?
Skyrunner Farseer 115
Scatbikes x2 162
Wraithknight 295

572

 Bach wrote:
What is the point of the assault units?

My Primary use for an assault unit is to tie up or counter an enemy unit where the math to kill it would absorb a disproportionate response from my army (or be flat out improbable to do any significant damage over multiple turns).

 Bach wrote:
Are they there to merely distract/tie up or are we expecting them to clean house in the back field?

While a "Housekeeping" unit is novel in concept, mostly a midfield scrimmaging/scoring unit or tarpit is my necessity.

 Bach wrote:
I would say that a very pragmatic goal for assault units in our lists would be appear that they could actually get there.

I agree that the ability to make an assault is often more valuable then actually making a charge. Area denial and control of the midfield are usually critical in missions that use progressive objectives.

 Bach wrote:
I would avoid drop pods because I think there is a psychologocal thing going on when you see fast assault units closing the distance.

Drop Pods also have the unfortunate problem of allowing their payload's quarry the chance to slip the trap. Having to wait that one critical turn to charge is a kneecapping. Against highly mobile forces this can really break the effectiveness of an assault unit.

 Bach wrote:
Also how many points do you sink into an ally detachment before it starts to get into the way playing a Tau list? I personally feel that once an ally starts crossing 300-400 points, it starts to encroach on other things I want to pack in, if we are talking about an 1850 list.

I think that depends on the points played. 2000/1850 are the most common around my area, with 1500 popping up here and there. In the first tier I can't justify spending more than a full Harvest. In the second tier, I find it hard to justify anything more than a Culexus (or maybe now some Sisters of Silence). The cost is always offset by the ability of the Allies to do their job and allow the Tau portion of my army to also do what it needs to do. The Harvest is a good example because an opponent often wants to eliminate the Wraiths, and that is easier if they first squash the Spyder. At the same time they want to get rid of Markerlights fast. Rarely could all three be feasible, and often they will split their focus accomplishing none of these. This makes the Harvest worth a larger investment than most Allies, because the effect it has meshes well with the army as a whole.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm totally with you on all points. It'll be nice to have multiple psychic denial bubbles spread across the board that you don't necessarily have to meticulously hide throughout the game. The Sisters also have the nice bonus of being able to mulch marine and marine vehicle MSU with relative ease. That'll help a lot when facing down a Battle Company, a matchup they'd otherwise not be terribly useful in.

I have assembled and tested the Sisters in their inaugural match. It was against a new TSons list from one of our tougher tournament players. He tends to favor Deathstar builds and this was his first stab at a list with the new book. He was running a Jump Terminator unit with 4 attached Sorcerers (Invis/Endurance), along with Magnus and Tzaangors. The match boiled down to Objective placement, and him getting a handle on the differences between this Deathstar and his usual builds; Thunderbus, Wolfenstar, and Daemon Knight (2++ Rerollable) with Flying Circus. He scooped by turn 2, which was a good sign, but a critical mistake was made due to his using so many unfamiliar units, and this was a favorable matchup for the Sisters. I'll with hold judgment until further testing.