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@tneva82: Alright then lets go through this again;

So the Imperium is constantly losing you say and being destroyed? Okay, provide a single major War which the Imperium unequivocally loses, something comparable to the defeats suffered by the Orks during the 2nd Armageddon War or the Beast Waaagh!!!, similar to the Craftworld Eldar at Alaitoc or Death Masque.

Provide me with some concrete TEXTUAL evidence of major Wars lost by the Imperium and then I might be inclined to believe you if the evidence is more than a single exception.

Till then all you do is repeat blurbs about 'danger is coming' with no concrete examples of danger.

Yes the Orks are truly terrifying in large numbers; to bad every time they've united in large numbers so far they've been defeated even when the Imperium itself wasn't united.

Yes Craftworld Eldar are foresighted; too bad only a single one of their grand plans against the Imperium has ever come to fruition and, instead, their are no less than six examples of Ulthwe's own Farseers (so meaning Eldrad) being out planned by Space Marines and, in one case, the Imperial Guard.

Yes Tau are...well nothing really, there just isn't much to them. Their big claim to fame is their technologically advanced, except they aren't, and the most they've ever done is capture one planet from a Token Imperium Force.

Chaos is a long track record of losing. Necron and Dark Eldar barely ever engage in major fluff battles with the Imperium so we're mostly left with the Tyranids, who do actually threaten the Imperium in fluff in major engagements, good for them.

So concrete examples none of this 'we're all doomed' and then no actual examples of any major doom happening. If the Imperium were 'losing' and 'doomed' it wouldn't have endured as the largest and most powerful galactic hegemon for 10000 years or more. That's not how 'losing' works.

I mean seriously just provide two Wars, major fluff wars hyped by the creators of Warhammer, where the Imperium unequivocally loses. If, as you say, they are constantly losing then this should be really, really simple.

@Ashiraya: That's hardly fair to the Beast, no character has ever tried to attack the whole Imperium and won. When Horus attempted too ended up dying too, same as the Beast. The lesson to be drawn is rather obvious.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
And yet, they can't deploy infinite daemons, while the Beast could and did deploy all of his absurd numbers of Orks.

And yet he lost, and he died. So much for the Beast.

As I've pointed out and provided citations for in the fluff winners and losers thread, the only reason he didn't win is because his attack moon sat over a defenceless Terra for days on end doing nothing instead of letting loose with its planet-slicing gravity weapons and winning the war right there.

No force in the game is powerful enough to overcome Plot Induced Stupidity, unfortunately.

Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.

Yeah. The problem is that he overwrote the Beast. Robin, you are complaining about the symptom, not the root of the problem.

@Ashiraya: To be fair that's a very subjective position. Why is the Beast necessarily 'overwritten' when his oldest canonical background is literally a tiny paragraph which simply reads; "And the Beast almost conquered the entire galaxy"?

I think its written stupidly, like a lot of GW fluff, but its hardly unique in its stupidity and I would say the Beast was overwritten. Just poorly written.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.

From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top.

However, in-universe, the point stands. The Imperium did not win on its own merits - it won because the ruthless, cunning enemy standing over its beaten body had a random bout of stupid and let it stand back up to try again.

So the real Problem of the 40k verse is Quality Assurance ?

 Robin5t wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.

From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top.

However, in-universe, the point stands. The Imperium did not win on its own merits - it won because the ruthless, cunning enemy standing over its beaten body had a random bout of stupid and let" it stand back up to try again.

Those super sporting orks, and their love of a friendly, sportsmanly bash up... "Good game guy, time for one more?"

 Robin5t wrote:
From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top.

The Celestial Orrery is different because the Necrons controlling it, as far as I know, haven't really fought anyone.

Is it possible the Beast's attack moon couldn't actually do meaningful damage to Terra through it's super void shields or psychic defences or whatnot?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So you are just cherry picking people who agree with you now? even though every one has pretty clearly told you why thats not the case.

I doubt that we would find a new "empire" thats gone undiscovered and or uneffected by the warp or eldar in some way.

It would be pointless for the nids to "communicate" because the IoM dont care, even if they were able to talk and express emotions they are note human there fore they are to be killed.

Humans dont work with xenos.

No i feel i've learnt a lot from the people in this thread for example i didn't know the necrons had a "planetary destroyer" kind of weapon and also i didn't consider the imperiums inherent and grave weakness that it is a hegemony and ultimately if terra falls humanity falls in massive way tearing itself apart, it's possible that even the eldar or tau could simply take the bulk of their fleets to terra and simply destroy the astronomicon at great loss to themselves but in the long run saving the rest of the galaxy from zenos persecution at that point humanity doesn't even register as a threat and the tau who still has access to skimming the warp (unsure if humanity does) they could finally absorb and ally themselves from the freed humans around them creating the first cross species alliances and potentially becoming the new undisputed rulers of the galaxy as the humans by and large would become ork like.

However that is a large IF although i've never heard about the defences of terra i assume that it is like cadia as in millions of orbital defence platforms and stuff like that given it's importance still though destroying is far easier the defending stuff.

Also i didn't know that innovation is heresy sounds like a dying race to me was very enlightening.

Here's a strange question is it actually better that humantiy exists for the other races in the universe? like sure if humanity arrives at your homeworld you are done but at this point now the tyranids exist and someone to control orkspace is always nice further it seems that the human engine has stopped conquering worlds now moreso it's defending itself on all sides rather than expanding? The eldar for example may require the humans to deal with the tyranids as their craftworlds actually got nommed by them

 Robin5t wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its autor stupidity, he decided to write about an event that could not end with the Imperium getting wiped out, and then decided to put those stupid death star copies and then park one of them by Terra.

From a narrative standpoint, I actually agree. Considering the Imperium was always supposed to win the war, they made the Beast far too powerful - he seemed pretty much unbeatable until that bit of plot-induced stupidity ultimately caused his downfall. It's the same sort of narrative problem that the Necrons' Celestial Orrery presents - the enemy can win the war in one simple move, but they don't because reasons, and it just ends up looking stupid when the Imperium comes out on top.

However, in-universe, the point stands. The Imperium did not win on its own merits - it won because the ruthless, cunning enemy standing over its beaten body had a random bout of stupid and let it stand back up to try again.

To be fair, that is a really common sci-fi cliché. *cough*Star Wars*cough*

I agree with the OP but for diffrent reasons then the ones so far discussed. I also believe that the situation the OP describes where true up untill the most recent lore. Let's break down my reasoning bit by bit on why the Imperium hasn't been threatened but now is.

Every race in 40k that's currently around has very specific traits that allow them to stick around where lesser races have failed.

Humanity and Eldar share the ability to see the future and comunicate over vast distances.

Humanity also add the ability to travel from anywhere to anywhere, logistics that's impossible for the other races.

Orks are all but impossible to get rid off. They litteraly procreate as they die and their spores survive both the vaccume of Space and planetary re-entry.

Tau lack warp technology (as far as I'm aware, unless this has changed in recent fluff) but have the avantage of weaponry that's adaptable and of their lesser races. Overall I think they're the most insignificant race and has only survived due to luck. For the purpose of this text, ignore the Tau.

Tyranids avantage is threefold, discounting numbers that may or may not exist. First is that you can't kill a Tyranid since it's biomass will just be recycled into a new one, hence "total destruction" of a fleet is neccesary or every fight with them will be a waste (of course this does not apply to necrons fighting them). They very much fill the classic "undead scurge" roll of a fantasy setting with undead warriors being unkillable and comming back in the shape of new tyranids. Their second avantage is that they do never have a base of operation. You cannot strike at Tyranid strongholds. You always have to fight on the tyranids terms, they will come for you. Their third avantage is that they have insane reconnisance. There's genestealer cults, Tyranid Strains and dormant have ships all over the galax that allow them a great deal of info of where they are going and what they are hitting. Hell, they can probably eat info from your brain, like a Space marine.

Necrons are litteraly immortal. They are the only race with logistics that rival the Imperium in effeciency.

Chaos is what it will always be. It's avantage lies in that it's inhabitants exist by diffrent universal laws. Time, Space and physics does not apply to them, making them a difficult to handle foe for any occupants in the material universe.

Why does this matter?
Because only humans, tau and Eldar can really be beaten. All other races are virtually immortal and hence will remain as a threat no matter what the Imperium does.

Threats and timeline:
Say what you will about the Eldar, chaos, orks and minor races, but the Imperium has remained the dominant power for 10.000years even with them mucking about. Hence, despite however scary they are they have not managed to put down the (logistical war machine that is the) Imperium from its King of the hill position.

Now in the last few hundred years the necrons and the tyranids have emerged to pose new threats, forcing the Imperium to redirect reasources into dealing with them. A clear example of how theese reasources could otherwise have been used is the fact that the Tau has been allowed to grow as powerfull as they have. One could probably argue that chaos and rebelion has been given a bigger chance to spread too. Lastly, reasources sent to theese two galaxy wide threats would probably have been used more against the orks. This would allow the orcs to catch a breather and gather more momentum. Hence we should see more and bigger waaaghs in the last hundred years which, arguably, we do.

Despite all this the Imperium has so far remained top dog. It's ability to redirect reasources from virtually anywhere combined with it's manpower and customs to war has let it persist. Even so, small details like the 13th crusade, the Tau empire, the success of Huron and the increasing rate at which astartes chapters have been lost speaks of a Imperium that's struggling to remain as strong as it's been for the last 10.000years.

EXTRA: besides, there's a gate to chaos beneath the golden throne and Mars is a tomb world.

@1hadhq: From my side the real problem is just the lopsided nature of the fluff. Have the Imperium suffer major losses within primary narrative works which the work itself concedes as significant, like what the Orks have suffered during the Beast Waaagh!!! and 2nd Armageddon or the Craftworld Eldar suffered with Death Masque, the shattering of Lugganath or the Adeptus Mechanicus' assault on Yme-Loc, or the Tyranid suffered at Ichar and Macragge. Just have a faction other than the Imperium win a major campaign in the narrative for a change which the narrative itself concedes is actually significant.

For example why not let Orks win the Sanctus Reach Campaign Supplement? The Space Wolves definitely didn't need another win.

But that's my position.

@SomeRandomEvilGuy; Unlikely since the High Lords are panicking constantly and consider a Proletarian Crusade their only hope. Besides the Moons have already by that point been demonstrated to have ridiculous firepower.

@Nerak: I'd agree with quite a bit of what you say but...I fail to see how material threats have lead to more significant material consequences of late.

The Tau have grown stronger, they've recently conquered 2 planets, I'll concede that but the Imperium, and narrative itself, within the latest fluff about the Tau actively points out how insignificant this all was so hardly a material threat warranting notice since the story itself informs us bluntly its unimportant.

I don't see how you can argue Chaos and Rebellions have gotten 'stronger' or could you provide a list of battles won and worlds conquered by Chaos of late?

Similar thing with Ork Waaaghs!!!, is there textual evidence for Ork Major victories of late in primary campaigns? I don't remember any, to my knowledge the latest fluff concerning Orks is Ghazghkull's war with the Tyranid, the loss at Sanctus Reach and the Deathwatch killing a Mek and taking his Synapse-Disruption Crown.

That being said the rest I'd agree to, broadly, although Mars being a Tomb World and a Chaos Gate beneath Terra do not by themselves change anything concerning the Imperium's complete military dominance in the narrative, otherwise we'd have to automatically exclude all Dark Eldar due to Khaine's Gate or Iyanden due to being a Tomb Ship.

I think there is a reason for the discrepancy. The stories are of heroic moments in a setting of stagnant decay.

That's why the 'blurby' stuff will talk about increasing chaos insurrection, but the novels will have the space marines winning at the end of the day. All the books that AREN'T written, the imperium is losing or winning pyrically.

 Anemone wrote:
@SomeRandomEvilGuy; Unlikely since the High Lords are panicking constantly and consider a Proletarian Crusade their only hope. Besides the Moons have already by that point been demonstrated to have ridiculous firepower.

An attack moon over Terra would be a threat not seen in over a millennia. I'm not suggesting it'd be incapable of causing damage but the author may not have intended for it to have been an "I win" situation for the Orks.

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
House Davion could not remain on top for ever. They were due for a fall to maintain the balance of power.

not quite what my problems with it where (house davion had been on a down slope before I got into the setting, the last war they won was what 3029?). my problem with the constant "one faction can do no wrong ever cause it's the designated winner this year and everyone else are complete morons"

If you mean House Liao gaining, that was reversing nearly 300 game years of being the designated loser and whipping boy. Almost reversing it in about 80 years was fast, but taking another 300 game years to do so would have meant people complaining at the length of time of them making advances even if those are small ones. Just as 40K has no race ever truly enacting its endgame and "winning the galaxy forever and ever. The End," no faction or merged faction in BTU could be allowed to dominate or nearly win the setting.

actually the reversals suffered where mostly gains made in the 4th sucession war which was the dawn of Battletechs "one guy is reasonably intelligent and everyone else is slowed" writing.
which continues to this day. that combined with their tendancy for massive wars that make it hard to really do the tradtional small scale battletech game have just made me lose intreast in the game.

@nareik: Yes I've heard that as the primary defence as to why the Imperium wins everything of significance and I'm meant to somehow 'buy' that they're losing.

I don't buy it. This is a setting and a story, if they want me to believe something they must demonstrate it. If I'm meant to count my own assumptions about things I don't see as canon then I could argue that there is an enormous empire of sapient Cheese Wheels secretly ruling the entire Galaxy off-screen.

Besides the way you put it there, which I think was very succinct, is my problem; I don't like that only one faction within the setting is so consistently victorious, I would prefer to see victories in the primary narrative doled out more fairly across all factions for all players to enjoy. Speaking as an Imperium Player I would far prefer a situation in which the Orks had won on Sanctus Reach, for example, or the Craftworld Eldar were capable of doing anything other than dying to make other people look cool.

And Eldrad wasn't near-utterly useless.

To put it perhaps best; I want to see the heroic moments of the Orks and Craftworld Eldar versus the Imperium too, I would like heroic moments to be possessed by all factions so all players could enjoy their faction's heroic moments, including against the Imperium.

@SomeRandomEvilGuy: Anything is possible *shrug* but again it seems now like you're postulating just to cast the situation in as favourable light for the Imperium as possible.

Within the novel itself Terra is terrified, its made clear their virtually defenceless and there is a feeling of doom and gloom. Technically I don't recall anyone ever specifically stating something like what you say but, since its never specifically denied...

Honestly I just don't find that reasoning in narratives compelling, it allows far to much space for someone to just end any argument by saying 'But did they specifically say contrary?'.

Reading the book, and the behaviour of everyone on Terra and beyond, the intention seems pretty clear to convey that Terra was saved by the peculiar behaviour of the Orks in this regard. But, if that's unacceptable to you, no-one ever specifically denies what you're saying so I suppose run with it.

I gotta say, though I disagree with some of the OP's points, in my head-canon Imperium is definitely unbreakable power. And I like to think of it as of an unbreakable power. Let's say, Imperium will wipe out everyone else. Orks, 'nids, C'tan ... Then they'll get every single Space Marine chapter, catch the bus into the Eye of Terror and kick ass of every single Chaos God.

The irony is that every victory that makes Imperium stronger simultaneously hasten its inevitable destruction. There's no need for anyone to treat the Imperium - Imperium is its own greatest enemy. Even in WH40K there's enough guys like Duke Severus who wish to make their own little playground. Once Imperium will defeat all of its many enemies, Imperium will be gone for sure. And, no doubt, it will be bloody. Humans will gladly start to rip and tear each other apart with such ferocity, that Ork-angels will cry tears of joy by simply watching them from the skies and warp will generate new demons at the speed of light.

The only force with a realistic shot at domination are the Tyranids.

Let's look at each faction.

The Imperium is already large and it wants to hold on to what it has and maybe expand.
The Eldar of either stripe want to survive and expand.
The Orks want to fight.
Chaos wants to expand.
The Necrons want to kill everything.
The Tyranids want to eat everything and expand.

The Imperium is big. Really big. It suffers horrid setbacks, but on the grand scale it's like shooting an elephant with a .22. Any external enemy trying to dominate it will get bogged down like the French or the Nazis trying to conquer Russia. The most you can hope for against Imperium is to bite off a piece of it and hope nobody notices. And humans are tenacious, warlike, adaptable, and multiply like rabbits. The only enemy that has half a chance to actually conquer the Imperium is Chaos, and only through subversion. But there's just too goddamn much to subvert, and for every successful subversion there is a righteous and successful Imperial Faith zealot.

The Eldar can scheme and plot all they want, but they are too few in number and multiply too slowly. They can deliver painful blows and they can always run away, but meaningful expansion? Eh, give it another 40000 years, maybe, not really.

The Orks burn out too quickly. Even the biggest Waaagh will stomp everything in sight, and then eventually the next target will be too far, the Warboss will lose control sooner or later, and the Orks turn on each other or just wander orf - no more Waaagh.

Chaos can't win. Simple as that. Chaos thrives on strife, and if it ever consumes everything, it will then consume itself in short order. I think the Chaos Gods themselves realize that, and they'll never let it happen. They like being Chaos Gods after all.

So now we're down to Necrons and Tyranids, the two forces of nature that just want to kill everything. Between these two, it comes down to attrition, and Tyranids propagate faster than Necrons. Plus, Tyranids actually have means to subvert societies, whereas Necrons don't.

So at the end of time, it will be bugs vs. robots, and bugs win.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Tau are not a threat in any way, no, but that is not their point. The point of the Tau is that they are the naive, reasonable guys in an unreasonable universe that is filled with all kinds of huge and insane threats and things they can barely comprehend.

That's not the point of the Tau at all. The Tau have two jobs in the fluff of 40k:

1) To be symbolic of the countless young civilizations that are constantly rising up all over the galaxy. They don't share the Imperium's idiocy about technology, so while they might not be a civilization-ending threat to the Imperium yet in the long run Tau technology will continue to advance beyond the point where the Imperium has any chance at all. Small numbers won't matter so much when a single gun drone is capable of annihilating entire sectors worth of Imperial planets (such a trivial task would be delegated to a barely-sentient gun drone, the Tau themselves have better things to do). And if the Tau fail someone else will rise up to replace them. That's what the "kill off the Tau" people don't seem to get, if you get rid of them you just create a new faction of Tau-in-all-but-name.

2) To highlight the sheer grimdark of the setting. The Tau are not "good buys" by any reasonable definition of the concept. They're an aggressive expansionist empire that embodies the worst of real-world imperialism, manifest destiny, etc, and would be clearly evil in any other setting. They're only "good" in that they're pragmatic enough to use science and technology to build a better gun to kill you with, and to offer you a chance to surrender and accept slavery under their rule instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in sight. And yet the Tau are the bright shining hope of the setting. As much as they suck life under anyone else is suffering on such an unimaginable scale that every citizen of the Imperium should pray for the opportunity to become Tau slaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inaphyt wrote:
i think across all the millions of systems humanity controls one bright spark can develop a means to infiltrate the eye of terror and from that point - If humanity wanted they could obliterate them out of existence.

Hahahahahahahahahahah NO. You seem to be missing a rather important fact about the Imperium: innovation is heresy. That "one bright spark" would have very little hope of avoiding being possessed by a demon and slaughtering everything and everyone they loved (as they watch helplessly while the demon uses their body) before opening the literal gate to hell through which Things Mortals Cannot Know pour through into reality and turn whole planets into horrors so bad you will pray that death takes you first. And if they somehow managed to avoid this fate they would be executed for unspeakable heresy, then their families and everyone they ever met would be given honorable executions of their own to ensure that all memory of the "bright spark" and their blasphemous works is purged from the universe.

I don't know if I would call them slaves per say. Some of the Tau lore explicitly states that any races inducted in to the Empire (such as humans left behind by the useless imperium) are allowed to retain any and all beliefs as long as they don't result in conflicts with the Tau. In other words, youa re allowed to believe that the dead guy on the throne is a god, and that their is a 'machine spirit' so long as you obey the laws that everyone within the empire follows.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Orks and Tyranids are the biggest threat, lore wise. They're nigh unstopabble forces of nature that are too big to contain, unless by taking a drastic solution (Kryptmann).

I don't believe that in the 41st millenium Chaos should be considered a viable threat. The Gods had their chance and screwed it. They've played their hand openly 10K years earlier and now the Imperium knows about them, while their chosen warriors are fewer in number than ever before, languishing in the Eye, with inferior gear, tech and numbers. As soon as the IoM closes the Eye for good (which is possible, I think) the only realt problem with Chaos will be an occasional mad prophet and maybe a daemonic incursion or two, from time to time.

Of course GW tries to up the street cred of Chaos at every possible occasion, but telling people that "this is not our 13th (another one, damn it!) Crusade, but the last battle blah blah blah" dosen't make the threat any bigger. Just like making Abaddon competent all of a sudden. Looking at you ADB.

Uhhhh by that logic wouldn't chaos be unstoppable? Daemons are literally infinite in number and the chaos gods draw power from emotions, something that is not going away any time soon lol.

 Olgerth Istaarn wrote:
Plus, Tyranids actually have means to subvert societies, whereas Necrons don't.

Mindshackle Scarabs.
They can literally raise the dead, too.


Plus Necron-worshipping cults/followers are a thing, as evidenced by Dead Men Walking, The Necron Threat, Medusa V: Endgame.

How dense actually is the Imperium?

I always got the impression that even though it stretched across the galaxy, it only controlled a small portion of habitable, profitable or strategic worlds.


^Diggas were thralls to necrons in addition to being ork cos players, weren't they?

How dense actually is the Imperium?

Mind-numbingly stupid at times.

.....Oh, you mean as in how close stars are together.

I always got the impression that even though it stretched across the galaxy, it only controlled a small portion of habitable, profitable or strategic worlds.

Definitely. It's the largest single 'empire' out there, but controls only a small proportion of the galaxy. The value which has been thrown around is "an empire of a million worlds" - which compared to the estimate of one hundred, thousand, million planets in the milky way is approximately one thousandth of a percent.

When you add in the fact that a lot of worlds are clustered up into sectors a couple hundred light-years on a side with anything from a dozen or so worlds to a hundred in that 'pocket', you're gonna be a looooong way between sectors out on the fringes of the Imperium.