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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





There's two main reasons:

#1 - Closest-to-Closest casualties.
There was a time when players could pick which models died. But now, since the closest models have to die, each death results in extra distance that you need to move across a second time. Nothing is more disheartening for my Orks that to move 6 inches forward, and then, effectively, move 4 inches backwards in casualties. In this situation, I have, effectively, had my movement reduced to 2 inches. This is why you see the close combat units that ARE very deadly as being able to cover 24 inches in a turn, charge from deep strike, or do other such nonsense. Anything on foot that wants to engage in close combat just won't ever make it in. This is probably the biggest issue, but the decline of close combat as a primary way of playing has been death by a thousand cuts.

#2 - More Stuff Moves & Shoots
If you can believe it, there was a time when the decision of whether or not to move was a bigger deal. Almost everything nowadays can move and shoot at full, or nearly full, effectiveness. Hands up if you remember that moving cut your Rapid Fire down to a single shot at half range! Nowadays it's full effectiveness, regardless of moving or not. Other things that have changed? Vehicles moving and shooting with more, Heavy Weapons able to shoot when other stuff in the unit moves but they don't, Snap Shots (beforehand it just was "couldn't shoot", not "shoot badly" - which can make a big difference!), Power of the Machine Spirit was just at BS2. This means that a lot more stuff can do "scoot & shoot", by moving away from close combat threat, while still being a threat themselves. This isn't a bad thing per se, as it helps make the games feel a lot more dynamic, but that is a consequence of it.

Together, these two things, both of which are movement based, take away the close combat focus of the game. The things in the game that are considered to be good at close combat get around these by being fast enough & tough enough to bypass these weaknesses, or break core rules of the game (like being able to Infiltrate & Assault, Deep Strike & Assault, or are incredibly potent even outside of close combat anyways).

On top of these, there's a few other important issues that reinforce these two points:

i. - Overwatch. It's not that Overwatch is deadly, because it's not. What it does is reinforce point #1, in that even if you lose just 1 model, often that means you need to make up an extra 1 or 2 inches on the charge, and that hurts far more than the actual number of wounds lost due to Overwatch.

ii. - And They Shall Know No Fear & Fearless. Reinforcing point #2, so much stuff in the game is Fearless or ATSKNF, that you almost always need to completely wipe a unit out with attacks in close combat before being able to move on. Imagine what would happen if once a unit started shooting at a target, it had to stay focused on shooting at that target until it was entirely wiped out, and couldn't even move until that happened. This is why Hit & Run is considered so useful, as it allows close combat units to enjoy this same level of mobility. This problem doesn't tend to come up against non-Fearless/ATSKNF armies, as combats resolve to a natural conclusion far faster depending on who has the upper hand.

iii. - Entering from Reserves/Scouts/Outflank/Infiltrate/Deep Strike. Reinforcing point #2 again, shooting is not hampered by any of these things, while close combat is impossible after these things. If you Deep Strike, you can shoot at maximum effectiveness right away, but can't assault right away. If you Infiltrate you can shoot at maximum effectiveness right away, but can't assault right away. If you enter from Outflank or Reserves or you Scouted on the first turn, you can shoot at maximum effectiveness right away, but you can't assault right away. This means that you have more tactical options when playing with shooting units than with assault units, which means you are rewarded more often for using these special forms of movement/deployment with shooting units than you are with assault units.



Now, you'll note that the best assault stuff in the game gets around certain parts of these things. Harlequins all have Hit & Run to get out of unfavourable combats and keep moving between points even while fighting in assault, and can often run & charge (which helps them keep up with scoot & shooters). Imperial Knights don't have their charge ranges reduced when it loses hull points, and it also moves 12" per turn anyways, and STOMP kills things so fast that it's often not stuff in long and useless close combats. The Genestealer Cult formation, the Skyhammer, and now the Raptor Talon can all charge right after Infiltrating/Deep Striking.


There are a few people (some even responded above!) that don't get how these two main points, and the three sub-points that reinforce them, affect the game. Instead they give these red herrings:

Red Herring #1 - Close Combat isn't strong enough. While this can feel true, it often isn't. Sure, most close combat weapons have no AP value, and it's a lot harder to get strikes-at-initiative AP2 than to get shooting AP2, but generally speaking stuff dies in close combat if you're actually able to get there. Some things kill things remarkably well in close combat. In fact, due to the nature of close combat, it can actually be far DEADLIER than shooting! ATSKNF/Fearless armies negate a lot of this (see sub-point ii.), but in theory that is not the weakness of close combat, but a strength of those armies and an imbalance in the game's meta.

Red Herring #2 - Shooting is effective every turn, while close combat has to wait. This isn't actually true, it's just that, as per Point #2, shooting units can avoid close combat a lot more effectively now than before. This means that it's easier for shooting units to stay relevant every turn. Note that in the past, when the question of whether to move or shoot was more challenging, while shooting would dominate the early game, close combat would dominate the late game, meaning that the two had more game-length parity.

Red Herring #3 - Charging through terrain sucks. No, it doesn't. That's just called using terrain to your advantage. People can use terrain to their advantage against shooting too. If you give every close combat unit assault grenades, then the use of cover as a means to strike before opponents is a totally moot rule, and it's one that I think should stay.

Red Herring #4 - Random charge range sucks. Okay, it hurts when you roll snake eyes, but there's also the chance for you to succeed on very long charges too. Ultimately, I don't think there's too much of a difference between the old "for sure 6 inches" and the new "often 7 inches, but not always". I think what hurts most here is that shooting range is set in stone, and charge range isn't, and this is more of a psychologically taxing feeling, but isn't what's holding close combat back.


What could be done to fix this? Well, the two main points of close combat's decline need to be addressed. First, if you can make it so closest-to-closest is no longer in effect, then close combat armies won't suffer as much. The worry here is that models with special or heavy weapons can take a lot longer to die, or that the game isn't as realistic if you do this, but I've always felt that this would be acceptable. The style of the game is what's important, and treating these weapons as being something that the next soldier just picks up seems fine to me. Next, let units Consolidate or Hit & Run into close combat. Just make it so that if you end a move in base to base contact, you're in close combat. Third, make Overwatch a response to an enemy moving into base to base contact. Fourth, change ATSKNF to something else (maybe bring it back to having to make more saves instead). And five, make it so that if you infiltrate, scout, deep strike, or enter from reserves (unless you're a flyer), you can only make Snap Shots that turn, so that these two things are more at parity.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




The real reason is 40k has never had a rule set writen specifically for its game play.(Its always been a WHFB clone.)

And since 3rd edition the rules for WHFB skirmish games , fail to cover the modern battle game 40k has evolved into.

(Look how elegant and intuitive Epic Armageddon rules are in comparison to 40k rules.Simply because they are written for the game play of Epic Armageddon . )
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Combination of not assaulting out of transports, random assaults and overwatch all really hurt assault armies.

Add in obscene tau overwatch bonuses and armies like ba got the short end of the stick.

One of my major issues with the last two editions is they made me play sw as a gun line to stand a chance.
   
Made in us
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Overwatch + removal from the front is terrible


Agreed, all wound allocation needs to be is

"wounds are allocated by the controlling player, in the case of multiwound units, models that are already wounded must be allocated wounds before unwounded models."

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

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Made in ru
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 Azreal13 wrote:
Overwatch + removal from the front is terrible


Agreed, all wound allocation needs to be is

"wounds are allocated by the controlling player, in the case of multiwound units, models that are already wounded must be allocated wounds before unwounded models."


What if a sniper wounds my warboss in a greentide. He's doomed to die from a bunch of bolters fromnow on?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Current wound allocation is fine, as long as assault units get cheaper and shooters get more expensive.
   
Made in us
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 koooaei wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Overwatch + removal from the front is terrible


Agreed, all wound allocation needs to be is

"wounds are allocated by the controlling player, in the case of multiwound units, models that are already wounded must be allocated wounds before unwounded models."


What if a sniper wounds my warboss in a greentide. He's doomed to die from a bunch of bolters fromnow on?


Don't allocate the sniper round to your Warboss?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote:
Current wound allocation is fine, as long as assault units get cheaper and shooters get more expensive.


No, it's not, it promotes ridiculous scenarios with Khorne champions and Ork Warbosses hiding in the middle of their units, and micro movement to ensure that special weapons are in range, but sufficiently bubble wrapped to try and survive.

Much better to dispense with all that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/09 17:56:49


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Taking models off the back of a unit was stupid. The current system makes much more sense, GW just didn't change point values to reflect it.
   
Made in ca
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






It's simply because shooting is easier and more cost-effective. For melee, you gotta buff your movement, attacks, initiative, weapon, and strength. And that's not accounting for all the random stuff that can screw you over (overwatch killing enough people to stop a charge, charge distances, etc)

Whereas shooting is fairly straightforward, the weapons are comparatively cheaper, and most importantly you don't get whacked by the enemy in retaliation.

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Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


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Made in gb
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Nottingham UK

The point on WS made earlier is really good, as of now WS3 and WS4-6 models fighting each other.... there's no difference for the WS3 model attacking a WS4 or WS6 model. I think originally this was to make it easier to hit each other in combat, aka why can my guardsman not hit that giant creature.... it's massive!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't allocate the sniper round to your Warboss?


Well that get's rip of the whole point of sniping, you should use snipers to kill specific individual models. I suppose you could just give IC's an exception, although I'm not 100% whether that would work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/09 18:11:51


2000
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Astral Miliwhat? You're in the Guard son!  
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Martel732 wrote:
Taking models off the back of a unit was stupid. The current system makes much more sense, GW just didn't change point values to reflect it.


I didn't find it stupid at all. Actually, I found it made things more exciting! I needed to chip through a whole squad in order to take out the really important stuff. In the case of weapons, it makes no sense that the next guy in line doesn't just pick the weapon up and starts using it. In the case of squad sergeants, well of course they're the last to die, because they're so important! It's more about style than realism. Yes, directional casualties is more tactical for shooting, but it definitely screws up with assault. A LOT. At minimum, all basic infantry need to be able to run and charge in the same turn in order to have a chance of catching shooty units.

As to the issue above about Snipers, hey Precision Shots is still a thing, no?

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Baldeagle91 wrote:


 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't allocate the sniper round to your Warboss?


Well that get's rip of the whole point of sniping, you should use snipers to kill specific individual models. I suppose you could just give IC's an exception, although I'm not 100% whether that would work.


You're making the same error as kooaeei, I propose a rule from a potential update, and you're then using an existing rule to argue why it wouldn't work.

Why would they change one rule, and then not rewrite a rule that became negated by that change?

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
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Made in gb
Worthiest of Warlock Engineers






preston

Because my Guard die to anything that makes it in - especially the tanks. Bah, close combat is game breaking and should be removed. 'Assault' is a dirty, filthy word.


Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





cedar rapids, iowa

Close combat armies need to reward close combat some how.

For example: Khorne Daemonkin get points even if the unit is wiped, so you take many units which has the added benefit of making it harder for shooty armies to stop you. (More units to shoot, less chance of stopping charges.)

Another good example are most space marine armies, due to their high survivability but low attack count, space marines are able to tie up the other armies units which prevents them from being shot for a turn. Due to their good armor and leadership they come out of combat still dangerous.

Orks can work but only if you MSU and drive the model count up, a more extreme KDK without the bonus.


I think the issues most people have with assault is it is hard tactically to pull off. It takes a good movement phase which alot of people are just BAD at.

Example already listed:
I wipe a unit and I am sitting in the open ready to die.
-Many times this is the generals fault, not the army or close combat rules. When you assault you should be trying to line up models in a way that you hit just enough to win but not enough to wipe them out. (Stagger the models)

It takes two turns to get across the table.
-This is not an issue....think about it, shooting is no different, most deployments need a turn to get into "optimal" shooting position. I think too many people think they need all these phases and rules and junk, and really if you are playing a close combat army it's all about turn 0 setup, using the board, and moving properly. Example: If you are facing a gun line they tend to castle up somewhere on the board. If you are playing an assault army, why are you setting up objectives on your side of the table? Throw them on their side! You need ALL of your units over there, not some of them.

Random charge range is awful/terrible/whatever.
-Again this usually comes down to a bad movement phase, 2d6 is pretty dang reliable between 5-8 inches. Unit variety is HUGE for assault armies, spamalot prevents you from taking advantage of different strengths and weaknesses. (KDK players tend to throw in a million dogs and call possessed "junk", better KDK players know better.)

 
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

The problem with being able to run then charge is, while it gives a nice buff to infantry, units like beasts, jump infantry and bikes become a bit too fast. Imagine flesh hounds that can scout, move, run then charge?

I don't think assault is quite as weak as is made out so I'd prefer to see a bit of tinkering rather than a serious overhaul. Overwatch never preventing a charge happening, for example. Maybe 6+D3 charge range too? Charging out of a stationary transport and charging out of an assault transport that moved 12 would be interesting. Land raiders and orks getting buffed doesn't seem like a bad thing

Hydra Dominatus 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Well if you can get into assault past the wall of over watch death, the turn or two of heavy fire and manage to roll a good charge.

Even with FNP boosts and everything.
Its not always to get a unit in someone's face foe chopping.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




Halandri

Spoiler:
 Yarium wrote:
There's two main reasons:

#1 - Closest-to-Closest casualties.
There was a time when players could pick which models died. But now, since the closest models have to die, each death results in extra distance that you need to move across a second time. Nothing is more disheartening for my Orks that to move 6 inches forward, and then, effectively, move 4 inches backwards in casualties. In this situation, I have, effectively, had my movement reduced to 2 inches. This is why you see the close combat units that ARE very deadly as being able to cover 24 inches in a turn, charge from deep strike, or do other such nonsense. Anything on foot that wants to engage in close combat just won't ever make it in. This is probably the biggest issue, but the decline of close combat as a primary way of playing has been death by a thousand cuts.

#2 - More Stuff Moves & Shoots
If you can believe it, there was a time when the decision of whether or not to move was a bigger deal. Almost everything nowadays can move and shoot at full, or nearly full, effectiveness. Hands up if you remember that moving cut your Rapid Fire down to a single shot at half range! Nowadays it's full effectiveness, regardless of moving or not. Other things that have changed? Vehicles moving and shooting with more, Heavy Weapons able to shoot when other stuff in the unit moves but they don't, Snap Shots (beforehand it just was "couldn't shoot", not "shoot badly" - which can make a big difference!), Power of the Machine Spirit was just at BS2. This means that a lot more stuff can do "scoot & shoot", by moving away from close combat threat, while still being a threat themselves. This isn't a bad thing per se, as it helps make the games feel a lot more dynamic, but that is a consequence of it.

Together, these two things, both of which are movement based, take away the close combat focus of the game. The things in the game that are considered to be good at close combat get around these by being fast enough & tough enough to bypass these weaknesses, or break core rules of the game (like being able to Infiltrate & Assault, Deep Strike & Assault, or are incredibly potent even outside of close combat anyways).

On top of these, there's a few other important issues that reinforce these two points:

i. - Overwatch. It's not that Overwatch is deadly, because it's not. What it does is reinforce point #1, in that even if you lose just 1 model, often that means you need to make up an extra 1 or 2 inches on the charge, and that hurts far more than the actual number of wounds lost due to Overwatch.

ii. - And They Shall Know No Fear & Fearless. Reinforcing point #2, so much stuff in the game is Fearless or ATSKNF, that you almost always need to completely wipe a unit out with attacks in close combat before being able to move on. Imagine what would happen if once a unit started shooting at a target, it had to stay focused on shooting at that target until it was entirely wiped out, and couldn't even move until that happened. This is why Hit & Run is considered so useful, as it allows close combat units to enjoy this same level of mobility. This problem doesn't tend to come up against non-Fearless/ATSKNF armies, as combats resolve to a natural conclusion far faster depending on who has the upper hand.

iii. - Entering from Reserves/Scouts/Outflank/Infiltrate/Deep Strike. Reinforcing point #2 again, shooting is not hampered by any of these things, while close combat is impossible after these things. If you Deep Strike, you can shoot at maximum effectiveness right away, but can't assault right away. If you Infiltrate you can shoot at maximum effectiveness right away, but can't assault right away. If you enter from Outflank or Reserves or you Scouted on the first turn, you can shoot at maximum effectiveness right away, but you can't assault right away. This means that you have more tactical options when playing with shooting units than with assault units, which means you are rewarded more often for using these special forms of movement/deployment with shooting units than you are with assault units.



Now, you'll note that the best assault stuff in the game gets around certain parts of these things. Harlequins all have Hit & Run to get out of unfavourable combats and keep moving between points even while fighting in assault, and can often run & charge (which helps them keep up with scoot & shooters). Imperial Knights don't have their charge ranges reduced when it loses hull points, and it also moves 12" per turn anyways, and STOMP kills things so fast that it's often not stuff in long and useless close combats. The Genestealer Cult formation, the Skyhammer, and now the Raptor Talon can all charge right after Infiltrating/Deep Striking.


There are a few people (some even responded above!) that don't get how these two main points, and the three sub-points that reinforce them, affect the game. Instead they give these red herrings:

Red Herring #1 - Close Combat isn't strong enough. While this can feel true, it often isn't. Sure, most close combat weapons have no AP value, and it's a lot harder to get strikes-at-initiative AP2 than to get shooting AP2, but generally speaking stuff dies in close combat if you're actually able to get there. Some things kill things remarkably well in close combat. In fact, due to the nature of close combat, it can actually be far DEADLIER than shooting! ATSKNF/Fearless armies negate a lot of this (see sub-point ii.), but in theory that is not the weakness of close combat, but a strength of those armies and an imbalance in the game's meta.

Red Herring #2 - Shooting is effective every turn, while close combat has to wait. This isn't actually true, it's just that, as per Point #2, shooting units can avoid close combat a lot more effectively now than before. This means that it's easier for shooting units to stay relevant every turn. Note that in the past, when the question of whether to move or shoot was more challenging, while shooting would dominate the early game, close combat would dominate the late game, meaning that the two had more game-length parity.

Red Herring #3 - Charging through terrain sucks. No, it doesn't. That's just called using terrain to your advantage. People can use terrain to their advantage against shooting too. If you give every close combat unit assault grenades, then the use of cover as a means to strike before opponents is a totally moot rule, and it's one that I think should stay.

Red Herring #4 - Random charge range sucks. Okay, it hurts when you roll snake eyes, but there's also the chance for you to succeed on very long charges too. Ultimately, I don't think there's too much of a difference between the old "for sure 6 inches" and the new "often 7 inches, but not always". I think what hurts most here is that shooting range is set in stone, and charge range isn't, and this is more of a psychologically taxing feeling, but isn't what's holding close combat back.


What could be done to fix this? Well, the two main points of close combat's decline need to be addressed. First, if you can make it so closest-to-closest is no longer in effect, then close combat armies won't suffer as much. The worry here is that models with special or heavy weapons can take a lot longer to die, or that the game isn't as realistic if you do this, but I've always felt that this would be acceptable. The style of the game is what's important, and treating these weapons as being something that the next soldier just picks up seems fine to me. Next, let units Consolidate or Hit & Run into close combat. Just make it so that if you end a move in base to base contact, you're in close combat. Third, make Overwatch a response to an enemy moving into base to base contact. Fourth, change ATSKNF to something else (maybe bring it back to having to make more saves instead). And five, make it so that if you infiltrate, scout, deep strike, or enter from reserves (unless you're a flyer), you can only make Snap Shots that turn, so that these two things are more at parity.


I largely agree with this one.

It almost touches on a point I feel is relevant. I see complaints about random charges, cover slowing charges and initiative in 6/7th. Apparently these things happen the majority of times you want to charge.

However, wasn't it the case in previous editions that charges into/through cover were also random charges?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/10 06:07:06


 
   
 
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