Knight army + price of failure

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**Walnuts**

Hey, so a couple of quick questions about using a knights-only detachment, like a "questioris knight crusade army list" from book 4.
Even though they don't count as lords of war, are they still subject to the 'price of failure' rule from book 2, and that award your opponent, and count as 'engines of destruction' and are thus worth a victory point to your opponent?
That section specifically says 'lords of war', but since it was written when super heavy options for other slots didn't exist, I feel like I should go with rules as intended, not rules as written (so a heavy support malcador would be worth 1vp, a knight seneschal that is an hq choice would be worth 1vp, etc).

**Unit1126PLL**

They're not worth 1vp each.

The new redbooks still contain the rule "Lord of War of the War Machine type are worth 1vp, Engines of Destruction are worth 2" (to paraphrase) but have heavy support malcadors and questoris knight armies.

That rule still references Lords of War very deliberately, even in books where there are superheavies not in the LoW slot.

**Walnuts**

Oh man, that makes Questoris Knight armies seem a bit OP to me. Malcadors too. Ah well.

**Unit1126PLL**

Walnuts wrote:
Oh man, that makes Questoris Knight armies seem a bit OP to me. Malcadors too. Ah well.

Why? There are tons of things in the heresy that are dangerous to Malcadors and Knights; I use malcadors constantly and they are by no means OP.

**Tannhauser42**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Walnuts wrote:
Oh man, that makes Questoris Knight armies seem a bit OP to me. Malcadors too. Ah well.

Why? There are tons of things in the heresy that are dangerous to Malcadors and Knights; I use malcadors constantly and they are by no means OP.

Yeah, Malcadors aren't really scary or tough. Now, a whole Knight army can certainly be a tough nut to crack for an army that isn't quite prepared for that much armor.

**Unit1126PLL**

Tannhauser42 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Walnuts wrote:
Oh man, that makes Questoris Knight armies seem a bit OP to me. Malcadors too. Ah well.

Why? There are tons of things in the heresy that are dangerous to Malcadors and Knights; I use malcadors constantly and they are by no means OP.

Yeah, Malcadors aren't really scary or tough. Now, a whole Knight army can certainly be a tough nut to crack for an army that isn't quite prepared for that much armor.

Which armies really should be in the Heresy, considering the amount of armour the Ordo Reductor, Solar Auxilia, or even Space Marines can bring now, even in a regular detachment.

**Ankhalagon**

The only crazy Malcador-variant is the Infernus. And in this case only its main-gun. The others are more of a cheap, fluffy super-heavy. Even most of the Knights are not realy that scary.

**locarno24**

Indeed. Given the blizzard of rerolling-to-penetrate S7, S8 and S9 fire a heresy army can easily field (quad mortars, fulmentaris, iron havocs, destroyer vindicators), you can chop up knights fairly easily.

It does, nevertheless, feel a bit bizzare that knights don't give away victory points when dreadnoughts do (in the 'dreadnought army' rite of war). But then there are several similar bizzarenesses in the rules. Onslaught detachments can't sieze the initiative because you can't sneak up on people with a heavy armour detachment. Fine. But shouldn't that apply to Leviathan detachments too? If you let an ordinatus battery sneak up on you you really need to have your scouts shot.

**Unit1126PLL**

locarno24 wrote:
Indeed. Given the blizzard of rerolling-to-penetrate S7, S8 and S9 fire a heresy army can easily field (quad mortars, fulmentaris, iron havocs, destroyer vindicators), you can chop up knights fairly easily.

It does, nevertheless, feel a bit bizzare that knights don't give away victory points when dreadnoughts do (in the 'dreadnought army' rite of war). But then there are several similar bizzarenesses in the rules. Onslaught detachments can't sieze the initiative because you can't sneak up on people with a heavy armour detachment. Fine. But shouldn't that apply to Leviathan detachments too? If you let an ordinatus battery sneak up on you you really need to have your scouts shot.

Admittedly, any Ordinator magos who lets anything get within a 6x4 table of the engines should be institutionalized. While we are nitpicking silly rules.

**LunaWolvesLoyalist**

30k or 40k, an all Knight army can be a bit rough.

**Walnuts**

Well, maybe I think the malcadors are a bit more potent than a lot of you since I can drop one with three assault cannons, a battle cannon, and a demolisher cannon for 345pts. :p
I def wouldn't feel bad about giving up a VP when that goes down.
Same thing with either of my knights. I run a lancer as a seneschal, so he has a 3+ invul save vs shooting, so he's super hard to bring down, and then he has all the other bonuses in hand to hand. Like I was fighting a paladin in the last game I played, I was hitting him on 3+, he was hitting me on 5+ and I had a 4+ invul save in hand to hand. I'll let you guess how that melee went. And that knight was a LoW so he was worth a VP but mine was not???

Ah well, if this is the most broken thing about 30k it still makes the game system about one billion times more balanced and playable than 40k so I have no real reason to complain much.

**Unit1126PLL**

Walnuts wrote:
Well, maybe I think the malcadors are a bit more potent than a lot of you since I can drop one with three assault cannons, a battle cannon, and a demolisher cannon for 345pts. :p
I def wouldn't feel bad about giving up a VP when that goes down.
Same thing with either of my knights. I run a lancer as a seneschal, so he has a 3+ invul save vs shooting, so he's super hard to bring down, and then he has all the other bonuses in hand to hand. Like I was fighting a paladin in the last game I played, I was hitting him on 3+, he was hitting me on 5+ and I had a 4+ invul save in hand to hand. I'll let you guess how that melee went. And that knight was a LoW so he was worth a VP but mine was not???

Ah well, if this is the most broken thing about 30k it still makes the game system about one billion times more balanced and playable than 40k so I have no real reason to complain much.

That 345 point malcador will get stomped into the ground by any assault unit ever in 30k, and loses to a Valdor Tank Hunter in a straight fight, which is 330 points, and can only bring one assault cannon to bear on a target at a time, so it's firepower is comparable to a Solar Auxilia leman russ squadron, except it has fewer hullpoints for the same points cost iirc.

The sponson arcs on the Malcador are what keeps it awful.

Oh, and as for the knight, I watched Angron destroy four knights in one game, including a Seneschal Lancer, without dying. So I'm really not impressed with Knights and Malcadors in the Heresy - I think they're about right as non-VP heavy support 'lesser' superheavies.

**Walnuts**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Walnuts wrote:

That 345 point malcador will get stomped into the ground by any assault unit ever in 30k, and loses to a Valdor Tank Hunter in a straight fight, which is 330 points, and can only bring one assault cannon to bear on a target at a time, so it's firepower is comparable to a Solar Auxilia leman russ squadron, except it has fewer hullpoints for the same points cost iirc.

The sponson arcs on the Malcador are what keeps it awful.

Oh, and as for the knight, I watched Angron destroy four knights in one game, including a Seneschal Lancer, without dying. So I'm really not impressed with Knights and Malcadors in the Heresy - I think they're about right as non-VP heavy support 'lesser' superheavies.

You basically just mentioned the exact few things a malcador isn't particularly good at, and it's a pretty short list. Yes, a super dedicated tank hunter that is good at nothing but tank hunting will take it down in some sort of weird 1on1 fight in a vacuum, and yes it's not good in 'melee', it's a tank. That stated, the rear armor of 12 makes it more assault resistant than the leman russes, and while those might have more hull points in a group of three, none of them are superheavies, and thus are vulnerable to damage. A single penetrating hit, even if it's AP1 or 2 and an explodes result is rolled, won't stop a malcador. Meanwhile on the leman russes, an explodes result, a crew stunned result, a crew shaken result, or a weapon destroyed result (sometimes) and there goes a battle cannon shot. Meanwhile the macador is a very mobile fire platform that can do decent damage against armor and can absolutely shred even heavy infantry. Also considering it can move and shoot, fire its weapons at different targets, and its pintle weapon has a 360 degree arc of fire, I can think of few instances where I wouldn't be able to fire every gun at a target a turn.

And as for Angron, yeah he's sort of known for being able to take down walkers (even super heavies) in hand to hand. Compared to the other primarchs that's basically the one thing he's good at, so I'm fine with that. Fighting him is sort of a 'worst case scenario.' If I were facing him, I'd cluster my knights so he has to fight more than one at a time (all it takes is one 6 on a stomp and he goes POOF), keep my knights away from him (he is just a footslogger), or tarpit him with blood angel assault marines with combat shields and feel no pain.

**Unit1126PLL**

Walnuts wrote:
You basically just mentioned the exact few things a malcador isn't particularly good at, and it's a pretty short list. Yes, a super dedicated tank hunter that is good at nothing but tank hunting will take it down in some sort of weird 1on1 fight in a vacuum, and yes it's not good in 'melee', it's a tank. That stated, the rear armor of 12 makes it more assault resistant than the leman russes, and while those might have more hull points in a group of three, none of them are superheavies, and thus are vulnerable to damage. A single penetrating hit, even if it's AP1 or 2 and an explodes result is rolled, won't stop a malcador. Meanwhile on the leman russes, an explodes result, a crew stunned result, a crew shaken result, or a weapon destroyed result (sometimes) and there goes a battle cannon shot. Meanwhile the macador is a very mobile fire platform that can do decent damage against armor and can absolutely shred even heavy infantry. Also considering it can move and shoot, fire its weapons at different targets, and its pintle weapon has a 360 degree arc of fire, I can think of few instances where I wouldn't be able to fire every gun at a target a turn.

And as for Angron, yeah he's sort of known for being able to take down walkers (even super heavies) in hand to hand. Compared to the other primarchs that's basically the one thing he's good at, so I'm fine with that. Fighting him is sort of a 'worst case scenario.' If I were facing him, I'd cluster my knights so he has to fight more than one at a time (all it takes is one 6 on a stomp and he goes POOF), keep my knights away from him (he is just a footslogger), or tarpit him with blood angel assault marines with combat shields and feel no pain.

Right, those 'few things' a malcador isn't good at is... well, the entire melee phase, a dedicated tank hunter the like of which is routinely seen, at least in my area, to deal with things like Malcadors and Flare Shielded Spartans. The Solar Auxilia LRBTs I am talking about you only need 2 to equate the firepower of a Malcador, though yes, they are vulnerable to the damage chart.

Trust me, though. I own four Malcadors, two Infernuses, and two Valdors. I play Solar Auxilia. I now consider it routine to lose two Malcadors on the first turn, with Siege Armour and Flare Shields, and the third before the end of the game. They're really not that tough in the age of 12 hullpoint Lords of War.

**Walnuts**

Yeah, we have pretty dif metas and are clearly playing dif sized games. 1750-2000 pts is most common for me, superheavies are rare, and I haven't seen a gun line that could rip apart even one super heavy let alone several on turn one.

Also I'm specifically talking about the Blood Angels malcador variant here. The extra assault cannons bring that tank from 'you had my curiosity' to 'now you have my attention'. So no, two leman russes with two battle cannons and two heavy bolters do not equate a malcador with a battle cannon, a demolisher cannon (significant upgrade over a battle cannon most of the time), and three assault cannons.

And no, being bad in an 'entire phase' of the game is actually a very minor criticism when it applies to ALL tanks. (and heck, considering that grenades have been nerfed, a squad of krak grenade armed marines could charge the thing, do AT WORST one hull point worth of damage, 12% of the time, and then next turn it could fire at them at full effect or roll them over, compared to the leman russes that the marines could probably still kill in melee or a walker that the marines could tar pit. that actually makes the malcador seem good in melee!)

Anyway, I believe that you know what you're talking about, we both game in very dif environments, and I wasn't trying to make a thread about the effectiveness of the malcador. I just think it's silly that only LoW superheavies are worth VPs when they can easily be weaker than superheavies from other slots. It's a pretty minor criticism of the game system overall, expecially after playing 40k for as long as I have, so no real sweat off my back here.

**Unit1126PLL**

Walnuts wrote:
Yeah, we have pretty dif metas and are clearly playing dif sized games. 1750-2000 pts is most common for me, superheavies are rare, and I haven't seen a gun line that could rip apart even one super heavy let alone several on turn one.

Also I'm specifically talking about the Blood Angels malcador variant here. The extra assault cannons bring that tank from 'you had my curiosity' to 'now you have my attention'. So no, two leman russes with two battle cannons and two heavy bolters do not equate a malcador with a battle cannon, a demolisher cannon (significant upgrade over a battle cannon most of the time), and three assault cannons.

And no, being bad in an 'entire phase' of the game is actually a very minor criticism when it applies to ALL tanks. (and heck, considering that grenades have been nerfed, a squad of krak grenade armed marines could charge the thing, do AT WORST one hull point worth of damage, 12% of the time, and then next turn it could fire at them at full effect or roll them over, compared to the leman russes that the marines could probably still kill in melee or a walker that the marines could tar pit. that actually makes the malcador seem good in melee!)

Anyway, I believe that you know what you're talking about, we both game in very dif environments, and I wasn't trying to make a thread about the effectiveness of the malcador. I just think it's silly that only LoW superheavies are worth VPs when they can easily be weaker than superheavies from other slots. It's a pretty minor criticism of the game system overall, expecially after playing 40k for as long as I have, so no real sweat off my back here.

I didn't mean two Russes, I meant two Demolishers in a Russ squadron. 8 Hull points, BS4, two demolisher cannons, and two multilasers, all for cheaper than a malcador.

And I don't think it's weird at all. Playing the game at 3000-3500 (on average; it's how I run my Ordinatus battery) illustrates precisely why these lesser superheavies are only heavy support and not LoW.

**King Amroth**

When did LOW stop giving out extra vp?

**Unit1126PLL**

King Amroth wrote:
When did LOW stop giving out extra vp?

They haven't?

**locarno24**

King Amroth wrote:
When did LOW stop giving out extra vp?

Lords of War still give out victory points when killed due to The Price Of Failure.

There are increasingly some Superheavy/"Super-character" units which are not Lords of War, and to which this rule does not apply:

~ Knights are troops, HQ, fast attack, elite or heavy support when used in a Quaestoris list, depending on their pilots.
~ Malcadors are heavy support choices for Imperial Army or Legion forces.
~ Samus and Cor'Bax Utterblight move from a Lord of War to an HQ choice in a pure Daemons force
~ Primarch's Chosen Rite Of War lets you take a Primarch as an HQ

**Ashiraya**

locarno24 wrote:

~ Primarch's Chosen Rite Of War lets you take a Primarch as an HQ

Though this one most definitely still gives VP for the Primarch's death, albeit in another sense.